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[Krejlooc]

If he developed anything using Zenimax assets or equipment while he was under their employ they would have legal rights to whatever he developed and likely anything that they used those developments to create if they can prove it.

If they prove Carmack stole trade secrets, could he actually then face felony economic espionage charges?




Key point here is that it only has to be related to it, not included in the final product.

You have to demonstrate a loss of value. And there is a mountain of public evidence that Zenimax had no intent of continuing (or really, starting, outside of carmak) VR research and development.

 

[bishoptl]

Sigh...is the winner of the VR wars going to be Sony (again), the company with the least tech impressive product?

Are you upset?

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

You have to demonstrate a loss of value. And there is a mountain of public evidence that Zenimax had no intent of continuing (or really, starting, outside of carmak) VR research and development.

Well sure, but even if they didn't intend to pursue VR, themselves, can you really conclude there was no value in them selling whatever work they'd done, or partnering with someone to take it over?

 

[Krejlooc]

Are you upset?

He's wrong, anyways. Google's tech is less impressive than PSVR, and I'd wager Google's VR tech will probably be the most widely adopted over time.

EDIT: Or Apple's, perhaps.

 

[jett]

I think this might be a rare case of Carmack being a dumbass and forgetting that he was no longer independent and that Zenimax owned his ass.

 

[ScientificPizza]

I think this might be a rare case of Carmack being a dumbass and forgetting that he was no longer independent and that Zenimax owned his ass.

I'd imagine that after a lifetime of doing whatever you want it's difficult to break out of that mindset haha

 

[Krejlooc]

Well sure, but even if they didn't intend to pursue VR, themselves, can you really conclude there was no value in them selling whatever work they'd done, or partnering with someone to take it over?

What work had they done? The Doom 3 BFG VR demo wasn't an API, it was a demo using hard coded barrel distortion, mapping IMU data to mouse look. The way the current rift works is entirely differently than those old duct tape protos, and the demo that sold Oculus to Facebook wasn't even Oculus' demo, it was the Valve Room Demo, which has absolutely no connection to Carmack.

I can't stess this enough - Facebook didn't buy Oculus because of Oculus' technology. They were shown Valve's technology.

In fact, Zenimax can still sell Doom 3 VR. The problem is the "work" they (John Carmack) had done is really worthless today.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Let me give you an example of what is going on

Imagine if Doc Brown had worked at Delorean Motor Company in Back to the Future. He was just a normal employee at DMC working on their cars. In his spare time, at home, he develops time travel technology in the form of his fusion engine. He then bolts his fusion engine onto a Delorean frame to demonstrate how it can work with any car. He shows it to his Delorean bosses, and they say they have no interest in time travel technology, and tell him to stop working on it. So Doc Brown leaves DMC and teams up with John Titor, and together they sell their time travel tech for billions. Afterwards, DMC comes in and says that because he bolted the Fusion Engine to a Delorean frame, that DMC owns his fusion engine outright, and the tech they sold is a rip off of DMC's time travel tech (which is actually Doc Brown's tech developed in his free time.) Additionally, they are claiming that John Titor also stole their tech, because he teamed up with Doc Brown, despite Titor having worked in Time Travel for years prior.

This is the exact same thing going on here, except replace time travel with VR, replace the delorean frame with Doom 3, replace DMC with Zenimax, replace Doc Brown with John Carmack, and replace John Titor with Palmer Luckey.

Being such a huge fan of Back to the Future, I love this explanation so much!

 

[wachie]

Are you upset?

I think he burst a nerve there.

 

[Salty Rice]

Always knew that Palmer Luckey is a hack fraud.

 

[Vic_Viper]

Pretty sure they are just referring to what Carmack had been working on before leaving Zenimax for Oculus. If this actually goes to court of be surprised. Screw Zenimax for doing Carmack this way. If they had done any work on VR without him they would have been showing it off a long time ago.

Can't wait to hear of this comes up on this weeks bombcast!

 

[Aztechnology]

Regardless of what happens, I respect the hell out of Carmack for what he's able to do for VR in such a short time.

Being martyred.

 

[Nostremitus]

What work had they done? The Doom 3 BFG VR demo wasn't an API, it was a demo using hard coded barrel distortion, mapping IMU data to mouse look. The way the current rift works is entirely differently than those old duct tape protos, and the demo that sold Oculus to Facebook wasn't even Oculus' demo, it was the Valve Room Demo, which has absolutely no connection to Carmack.

I can't stess this enough - Facebook didn't buy Oculus because of Oculus' technology. They were shown Valve's technology.

In fact, Zenimax can still sell Doom 3 VR. The problem is the "work" they (John Carmack) had done is really worthless today.

If the development tools were created on Zenimax computers by their employee, then they own them. It was something They could have feasibly licensed.

This would be like saying that because a dev can still sell their game it OK for someone to steal their engine and assets.

 

[senahorse]

Always knew that Palmer Luckey is a hack fraud.

Confirmation bias, what is it? Do you always jump to conclusions like this without first hearing from both sides? I mean, it's not even in front of the court yet. Maybe lets see how this plays out before passing judgement.

edit: if this is sarcasm as pointed out, just ignore me, straight over my head

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Confirmation bias, what is it? Do you always jump to conclusions like this without first hearing from both sides? I mean, it's not even in front of the court yet. Maybe lets see how this plays out before passing judgement.

Pretty sure he's joking.

 

[Head.spawn]

ZeniMax still trying to get a piece of that Facebook/Oculus-buy pie.

 

[Renekton]

Always knew that Palmer Luckey is a hack fraud.

Confirmation bias, the post.

 

[statham]

this totally reminds me of Mattel Vs Bratz dolls, IIRC dude created bratz in his off time but while still working for mattel.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...l-vs-bratz-no-ones-getting-paid-lawyers.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bratz

 

[Popsickles]

I wanted to do a witty first post, but I just hope this doesn't tarnish Carmack's name.

I have never understood the Idolisation of Carmack?

 

[Nostremitus]

this totally reminds me of Mattel Vs Bratz dolls, IIRC dude created bratz in his off time but while still working for mattel.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...l-vs-bratz-no-ones-getting-paid-lawyers.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bratz

Did he make them using Mattel's equipment?

 

[Aceshighhhh]

Confirmation bias, the post.

lol it's almost as if people rush to copy and paste the same reply above before realizing the original is a joke

 

[Salty Rice]

Confirmation bias, the post.

Gonna go in sadness to the beach and jump a little bit.

 

[Trace]

Well that's quite the charge. Not gonna point any fingers until anything is proven but holy shit if true.

 

[chubigans]

Gonna go in sadness to the beach and jump a little bit.

Hahah as a RLM fan I totally got it.

 

[Krejlooc]

If the development tools were created on Zenimax computers by their employee, then they own them.

Again, what development tools? The demo is largely hardcoded, it's not like they developed a VR dev kit.

This would be like saying that because a dev can still sell their game it OK for someone to steal their engine and assets.

It is absolutely nothing like that. What engine and assets did John Carmack steal? What Zenimax engine and assets are Oculus using?

Going back to the back to the future example - they didn't sell the fusion engine bolted onto the delorean. They demonstrated the fusion engine working with a delorean, then left DMC, then created a fission engine that worked similarly to the fusion engine, and sold that without the delorean bolted on at all. And DMC is saying they are the rightful owners of that fission technology.

 

[entremet]

I hope Luckey sues for libel. That's a trashy accusation.

 

[AgeEighty]

I could be wrong, but in my memories of the chronology of Oculus, Luckey and his first prototypes had some buzz long before Carmack left id. Is this not the case?

Like... I definitely already had known for awhile who Oculus were before I read about Carmack joining them.

 

[Krejlooc]

I could be wrong, but in my memories of the chronology of Oculus, Luckey and his first prototypes had some buzz long before Carmack left id. Is this not the case?

This is Palmer Luckey's first post on MTBS3D about his work on what would eventually become the rift. It's from 2009, 2 years before he met John Carmack.

 

[Dmax3901]

Luckey's Tale indeed.

 

[AgeEighty]

This is Palmer Luckey's first post on MTBS3D about his work on what would eventually become the rift. It's from 2009, 2 years before he met John Carmack.

OK, that's what I thought. So basically this whole story from Zenimax is bullshit on its face.

 

[Jintor]

Holy shit.

 

[Krejlooc]

OK, that's what I thought. So basically this whole story from Zenimax is bullshit on its face.

Palmer Luckey has been a long time member of Ben Heck's forums going back even further beyond that, too. Dude has been doing electrical engineering since he was a pre-teen.

 

[dezzy8]

Can Palmer sue Zenimax for trying to tarnish his name? I can't think of the word.

 

[mugurumakensei]

OK, that's what I thought. So basically this whole story from Zenimax is bullshit on its face.

Pretty much. they want to overemphasize Carmack's role so that it's easier to claim material damages and something of value.

 

[water_wendi]

Can Palmer sue Zenimax for trying to tarnish his name? I can't think of the word.

Defamation of character? i sure are hell hope so. i hope Zenimax is counter-sued into dust.

 

[plagiarize]

Why are zenimax so eager to sue everyone and just generally be utter dirt bags. Just work with Valve and make awesome Vive VR content if you want to give a fuck you to Oculus. Trying to lawyer up and get ownership of everything in the courts is just such an awful look.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Said contracts are hardly a slam dunk effort, as Zenimax needs to demonstrate a breech of their non-compete clause. There is much evidence that Zenimax had no interest in VR and were actually shelving VR projects (most notable, Doom 3 VR, the "tool" in question, had been blocked by Zenimax). Carmack left id specifically because they weren't pursuing VR, and that's what he wanted to work on. Zenimax only started talking about their desire to work in VR after Facebook bought Oculus for billions of dollars, pointing to Carmack's own pet projects developed in his free time as evidence of their commitment to VR. Those same projects are the ones Zenimax turned down originally.

None of these claims are new, this has been something going on for years now. This is just Zenimax restating what they have been saying for a long while now, and many people following this stuff don't expect it to stick. It'll likely all be settled outside of court anyways.

Again, all this shit is common in the tech world. I myself am going through something similar.

Zenimax began their claims before the Facebook acquisition. I also don't think Zenimax's interest in VR is germaine.

Why are zenimax so eager to sue everyone and just generally be utter dirt bags. Just work with Valve and make awesome Vive VR content if you want to give a fuck you to Oculus. Trying to lawyer up and get ownership of everything in the courts is just such an awful look.

Choosing not to protect your property is also a bad look. I don't think you can interpret this suit as Zenimax trying to get ownership of everything.

 

[Clefargle]

So he

He palmed it?

Lol

 

[AgeEighty]

Choosing not to protect your property is also a bad look. I don't think you can interpret this suit as Zenimax trying to get ownership of everything.

I have yet to see anything which convincingly shows anything Oculus has done as, or as closely related to, Zenimax's "property".

I absolutely believe that Carmack took files on his way out the door. But nothing he could have taken looks like it could have evolved into any core Rift technologies.

 

[Dr.Acula]

I have never understood the Idolisation of Carmack?

Not only for his technical engine building abilities, but for his standing up to 3DFX, ATi, nVidia, et al and using open source libraries for 3D rendering at a time when other devs were making games that locked people into hardware. For open sourcing his game engines after their life. For pioneering shareware, and engine licensing. For allowing full modding capabilities which ended up creating a generation of future developers.

A lot of things he did in the 90s were completely counter to industry practices, and yet id was still wildly financially and critically successful.

 

[Aselith]

OK, that's what I thought. So basically this whole story from Zenimax is bullshit on its face.

Or maybe the conspiracy is deep and long running. This thing goes all the way up to the President!

 

[Krejlooc]

Zenimax began their claims before the Facebook acquisition.

Zenimax filed their claim on May 21st, 2014. Zuckerberg announced Facebook was purchasing Oculus in March 24th, 2014. In fact, Oculus' first response to Zenimax's claims were that they were merely upset about a missed investment opportunity.

And their initial back and forth, before filing a claim, came after Oculus had finished their Series A and Series B investing rounds, prior to their purchase by facebook. Literally all their moaning has come after Oculus started making serious money. For 2 years between when Carmack met Luckey and they had gone public about all their stuff, Zenimax didn't say anything. They only got interested when it became apparent they had missed a big opportunity.

I also don't think Zenimax's interest in VR is germaine.

It is when you start discussing trade secrets and value lost. Especially when, initially, Oculus wanted to bundle Doom 3 VR with the Rift. Zenimax even cancelled Doom 3 VR formally after announcing it as a launch title, just before Carmack left id.

None of this is an example of Oculus stealing vital tech from Zenimax. This is every bit Oculus trying to work with Zenimax and Zenimax having no interest in VR at all and passing, only to realize they had passed on a golden goose.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Man, people are really greedy about VR.

Are we at a point where people are willing to steal ideas for their own good?

 

[Nostremitus]

Again, what development tools? The demo is largely hardcoded, it's not like they developed a VR dev kit.



It is absolutely nothing like that. What engine and assets did John Carmack steal? What Zenimax engine and assets are Oculus using?

Going back to the back to the future example - they didn't sell the fusion engine bolted onto the delorean. They demonstrated the fusion engine working with a delorean, then left DMC, then created a fission engine that worked similarly to the fusion engine, and sold that without the delorean bolted on at all. And DMC is saying they are the rightful owners of that fission technology.

Oculous doesn't have to be using it currently. All they have to prove is that Carmack took hardware/software related to VR development for it to fall under the umbrella of stealing trade secrets. Oculus doesn't even have to be using what was taken in their current product.

Also... The claim states that Carmack took VR development hardware owned by Zenimax. So they claim they had some form of dev kit that he took. If it existed for him to take, then it must have been developed.


So in the BttF example...

If the company that built the fission engine took the documentation and development hardware for the fusion engine with them when they left, then they are at fault and it would be a felony in the U.S.

 

[Elfforkusu]

I think this might be a rare case of Carmack being a dumbass and forgetting that he was no longer independent and that Zenimax owned his ass.

Filing a lawsuit != winning a lawsuit

 

[BlastProcessing]

Zenimax filed their claim on May 21st, 2014. Zuckerberg announced Facebook was purchasing Oculus in March 24th, 2014. In fact, Oculus' first response to Zenimax's claims were that they were merely upset about a missed investment opportunity.

And their initial back and forth, before filing a claim, came after Oculus had finished their Series A and Series B investing rounds, prior to their purchase by facebook. Literally all their moaning has come after Oculus started making serious money. For 2 years between when Carmack met Luckey and they had gone public about all their stuff, Zenimax didn't say anything. They only got interested when it became apparent they had missed a big opportunity.



It is when you start discussing trade secrets and value lost. Especially when, initially, Oculus wanted to bundle Doom 3 VR with the Rift. Zenimax even cancelled Doom 3 VR formally after announcing it as a launch title, just before Carmack left id.

None of this is an example of Oculus stealing vital tech from Zenimax. This is every bit Oculus trying to work with Zenimax and Zenimax having no interest in VR at all and passing, only to realize they had passed on a golden goose.

Trade secrets are not necessarily a "use it or lose it" thing. The argument that Zenimax wasn't moving forward on VR would be germane to the damage claims portion of the case, but not towards determining whether or not a breach of contract took place. Much of this depends on the exact structure of Carmack's contract.

I think that people's enthusiasm for VR and their dislike for Zenimax as a corporation might be coloring people's opinions. If Luckey and/or Carmack breached their contracts, Zenimax would be downright negligent if they didn't sue.

 

[Krejlooc]

Oculous doesn't have to be using it currently. All they have to prove is that Carmack took hardware/software related to VR development for it to fall under the umbrella of stealing trade secrets. Oculus doesn't even have to be using what was taken in their current product.

Also... The claim states that Carmack took VR development hardware owned by Zenimax. So they claim they had some form of dev kit that he took. If it existed for him to take, then it must have been developed.

No it doesn't.

So in the BttF example...

If the company that built the fission engine took the documentation and development hardware for the fusion engine with them when they left, then they are at fault and it would be a felony in the U.S.

You keep missing that A) There is no documentation and B) there is no development hardware for the fusion engine. Those are not things Carmack "developed."

Trade secrets are not necessarily a "use it or lose it" thing. The argument that Zenimax wasn't moving forward on VR would be germane to the damage claims portion of the case, but not towards determining whether or not a breach of contract took place. Much of this depends on the exact structure of Carmack's contract.

I think that people's enthusiasm for VR and their dislike for Zenimax as a corporation might be coloring people's opinions. If Luckey and/or Carmack breached their contracts, Zenimax would be downright negligent if they didn't sue.

What a cop out. I have little love for Oculus, it's not some fanboy bias blinding me.

 

[CHC]

I posted before about how ugly the entire VR business is before it really gets off the ground.

But another thing that is kind of unbelievable here is people's extreme willingness to accept the veracity of accusations made by a major corporation who this very same forum has gone to great lengths to disparage in the past.

I mean, I don't really have any personal belief that Palmer Luckey did or didn't do any of the things he is accused of, but c'mon..... courts exist for a reason. Maybe wait to see how this pans out before just blindly accepting this narrative that he is a total crook? Again, I'm in no way saying that he isn't but there is not a whole lot of verifiable evidence being presented here.

 

[AmyS]

This required a separate thread because holy crap: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/...ow-direcly-accuses-john-carmack-of-theft.aspx



Lots more at the link.

The complaint, which alleges a variety of transgressions, now includes Oculus CEO Brendan Iribe and id Software co-founder John Carmack by name.

The suit also directly names Oculus parent company Facebook, with amended charges against the VR company that further detail a key source of conflict: misappropriated Zenimax property. Specifically, the filing now spells out theft allegations against the id Software co-founder and Oculus’ current chief technology officer John Carmack.

“Instead of complying with his contract, during his last days at ZeniMax, he copied thousands of documents from a computer at ZeniMax to a USB storage device,” the amended filing (below) alleges. “He never returned those files or all copies of them after his employment with ZeniMax was terminated. In addition, after Carmack's employment with ZeniMax was terminated, he returned to ZeniMax's premises to take a customized tool for developing VR Technology belonging to ZeniMax that itself is part of ZeniMax's VR technology.”

Further, the suit increases its allegations that Palmer Luckey is not the inventor of contemporary virtual reality. In the original filing, Zenimax states that "Luckey increasingly held himself out to the media and the public as the visionary developer of the Rift’s VR Technology, which had actually been developed by ZeniMax without Luckey’s involvement."

The similar passage from the amended complaint is far more damning, suggesting that Iribe knowingly spread a tall tale about Luckey creating VR in his parents' garage. "Oculus, at Iribe’s direction, disseminated to the press the false and fanciful story that Luckey was the brilliant inventor of VR technology who had developed that technology in his parents’ garage," the new document reads. "In fact, that story was utterly and completely false: Luckey lacked the training, expertise, resources, or know-how to create commercially viable VR technology, his computer programming skills were rudimentary, and he relied on ZeniMax's computer program code and games to demonstrate the prototype Rift. Nevertheless, this fraudulent tale was frequently reported in the media as fact. Luckey increasingly and falsely held himself out to the media and the public as the visionary developer of the Rift’s VR Technology, which had actually been developed by ZeniMax without any substantial contribution from Luckey."

Holy shit, what a mess.

VR DOOMED.

 

[Nostremitus]

No it doesn't.

You should read it... Or at least read the op.

In addition, after Carmack's employment with ZeniMax was terminated, he returned to ZeniMax's premises to take a customized tool for developing VR Technology belonging to ZeniMax that itself is part of ZeniMax's VR technology.”

I suppose the tool could be software based... But then it would be akin to an SDK. Which is still a dev kit.