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artful_dodger · Jun 2, 2005

So i was chatting with a friend of mine at lunch the other day about how certain types of games will fare in the next generation and the discussion lead to X360 rpg's vs. PS3.

It didn't dawn on me at first when reading through all of the technical specs of the two systems during E3 but since the 360 will still be using dual layer DVD's and PS3 will be utilizing Blu-Ray, it seems obvious that the PS3 will outgun the MS system about 4:1 in terms of size and possible content on next gen RPG's.

As a pretty dedicated Sony follower, I was getting a bit scared for a while seeing the Mistwalker games that were shown for 360, but now i think PS3 will probably end up being my RPG system of choice (that is, unless the games are significantly better regardless of size - and I suppose MS can always release several discs ala PS1 FF's).

thorns · Jun 2, 2005

Disc size isn't going to have much impact, especially if sony uses <2x blu-ray which will be slower than dvds. Did you know that GTA: SA only uses around 2.5GB (less than 1/3 of a dual layer DVD) and most of it is music? Which can be even reduced further with texture compression and such (no big deal for the ultra powerful processors of next-gen systems).

sonycowboy · Jun 2, 2005

thorns said:
Disc size isn't going to have much impact,

Disc size will make a difference. It might take a couple of years though.

artful_dodger · Jun 2, 2005

Didn't know that about GTA but I do know that many, many current PS2 games are absolutely pushing the limit on the storage media (like less than 400k free on the DVD).

SolidSnakex · Jun 2, 2005

thorns said:
Disc size isn't going to have much impact, especially if sony uses <2x blu-ray which will be slower than dvds. Did you know that GTA: SA only uses around 2.5GB (less than 1/3 of a dual layer DVD) and most of it is music? Which can be even reduced further with texture compression and such (no big deal for the ultra powerful processors of next-gen systems).

If you look at RPG's, some of them are already huge. Both Xenosaga and Star Ocean 3 are doal layered. There were rumors a few months ago that FFXII and KH2 would be also.

Mrbob · Jun 2, 2005

It'll be like the PSone days. Multiple discs if needed.

At the same time, isn't it CGI that takes up most space on game discs? With next gen consoles real time stuff will look nearly as nice. Why waste the space on CGI?

thorns · Jun 2, 2005

sonycowboy said:
Disc size will make a difference. It might take a couple of years though.

only if you have sony-tinted glasses. blu-ray movie playback can make an impact ,yes, but not disc size.

You need to understand how game assets are stored. Game code itself takes minimal amount of space. The models, which are made out of polygons take minimal space also. The main things that take the space are textures and music, which both can be compressed very efficiently (and with minimal quality lost). Kudos to the developer who can produce enough content to fill 9gb with compressed textures and music. 1gb at 128kbps WMA Pro/AAC can hold 18 hours of music.

even if we get multi-disc(highly unlikely)at least it didn't stop ps1 with it's 4 disc games nor it did stop re4

If you look at RPG's, some of them are already huge. Both Xenosaga and Star Ocean 3 are doal layered. There were rumors a few months ago that FFXII and KH2 would be also.

But aren't those FMV heavy? Next - gen games will have most of the cutscenes in-game, as the trend has been shifting to this-gen. FMVs just won't be feasible I think, except maybe in some intros and such.

pcostabel · Jun 2, 2005

RPGs are huge this gen because of all the FMV. Next gen most cutscenes will use the game engine, so the disc space might actually go down.

duckroll · Jun 2, 2005

SolidSnakex said:
If you look at RPG's, some of them are already huge. Both Xenosaga and Star Ocean 3 are doal layered. There were rumors a few months ago that FFXII and KH2 would be also.

SO3 isn't dual layered. The original was single-layer and the DC is 2 discs. Xenosaga Ep1 was dual-layered because of completely and utter incompetence on the part of the programming team. They couldn't get the cutscenes to load fast enough so the director made 70% of them into MPEG2 videos so there would be no load time from scene to scene. Poor examples. I would say a better example would be MGS2 Substance or Sakura Wars PS2. Those are true dual-layer games which would have been conpromised if there wasn't enough capacity.

jarrod · Jun 2, 2005

Announced Next-Gen RPGs so far...

Xbox 360
-Blue Dragon (MGS/MistWalker Studio/Artoon)
-[eM] -eNCHANT arM- (From Software)
-Final Fantasy XI: Online (Square Enix)
-Lost Odyssey (MGS/MistWalker Studio/Feel Plus)
-The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (2K Games/Bethesda Softworks)

Nintendo Revolution
-Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles 2 (Square Enix)

...anything I missed? Have any next-gen RPGs even been announced for PS3 yet?

MbGCaM · Jun 2, 2005

With things like this:

who needs CG movies?

Lord Error · Jun 2, 2005

Some games right now take lots of space, close to 9GB, and don't have much fmvs either. Various disc-streaming techniques and/or assets redundancy/repetition over the disc surface can atribute to drastic increase of discs usage. Compression of course will help, but having 10x higher resolution textures and hi-def FMVs won't.

I'm sure it won't be too difficult to make next gen games larger than 9GB, the question is whether it will make sense to use BR disc for such games, and it all depends what speed drive ends up being used (3-4x would make sense, anything lower probably won't)

who needs CG movies?

CG movies still look much better than that, and as you can see are already being used in next gen games (DOA4)

duckroll · Jun 2, 2005

thorns said:
Disc size isn't going to have much impact, especially if sony uses <2x blu-ray which will be slower than dvds. Did you know that GTA: SA only uses around 2.5GB (less than 1/3 of a dual layer DVD) and most of it is music? Which can be even reduced further with texture compression and such (no big deal for the ultra powerful processors of next-gen systems).

Sony already announced that the drive in the PS3 would be a 6x Blu-ray drive which is faster than any DVD drive out there.

teepo · Jun 2, 2005

everyone always forgets to add high definition cgi into the equation.

sonycowboy · Jun 2, 2005

jarrod said:
Announced Next-Gen RPGs so far...

Xbox 360
-Blue Dragon (MGS/MistWalker Studio/Artoon)
-[eM] -eNCHANT arM- (From Software)
-Final Fantasy XI: Online (Square Enix)
-Lost Odyssey (MGS/MistWalker Studio/Feel Plus)
-The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (2K Games/Bethesda Softworks)

Nintendo Revolution
-Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles 2 (Square Enix)

...anything I missed? Have any next-gen RPGs even been announced for PS3 yet?

Just a promise from Square's president that a PS3 Final Fantasy was just "beyond the horizon", whatever the hell that means. That and all the squawk about Bioware coming to the PS3. But, afaik, nothing has been announced. Although, there are almost NO games announced at all at this point for the PS3 at all.

Mrbob · Jun 2, 2005

Bioware has two X360 games in the works. Don't know if they are RPGs or not....I suspect one of them is a Jade Empire sequel. Wouldn't be surprised if Dragon Age eventually comes to the X360 as well. But for now that is a PC exclusive.

thorns · Jun 2, 2005

duckroll said:
Sony already announced that the drive in the PS3 would be a 6x Blu-ray drive which is faster than any DVD drive out there.

ummm no they didn't.. why does this keep popping up???

Lord Error · Jun 2, 2005

Sony already announced that the drive in the PS3 would be a 6x Blu-ray drive which is faster than any DVD drive out there.

Where does that info come from? It's not in the official specs...
I remember actually seeing it somewhere (and by somewhere I mean somewhere substantially important) but not in the official specs sheet.

akascream · Jun 2, 2005

Xbox360 will have more real RPGs.
PS3 will have more JRPGs.

Simple.

sonycowboy · Jun 2, 2005

duckroll said:
Sony already announced that the drive in the PS3 would be a 6x Blu-ray drive which is faster than any DVD drive out there.

Unfortunately, they didn't. That was from someone posting comments from the Sony E3 PC on IRC and it got posted here. It wasn't stated during the PC and what they most likely did was mistakenly interpret that Blu-Ray was 6x the capacity of DVD and accidentally state it as the drive speed.

AB 101 · Jun 2, 2005

sonycowboy said:
Just a promise from Square's president that a PS3 Final Fantasy was just "beyond the horizon", whatever the hell that means. That and all the squawk about Bioware coming to the PS3. But, afaik, nothing has been announced. Although, there are almost NO games announced at all at this point for the PS3 at all.

Well, there was pretty much nothing announced for the 360 when it was a year away too.

Just thought I would add that.

Oh, and its my understanding that GT4 almost uses an entire dual layer DVD.

Anyways......

sonycowboy · Jun 2, 2005

akascream said:
Xbox360 will have more real RPGs.
PS3 will have more JRPGs.

Simple.

"Real RPGs"

OK.

Phoenix · Jun 2, 2005

sonycowboy said:
Disc size will make a difference. It might take a couple of years though.

Size doesn't matter

But seriously, back when most of the 'movies' and such were pregenerated and rendered I would have agreed. However we're moving further and further from that and moving into realtime generation with ingame assets. These take up tiny fractions of the size of encoded MPEG content, so I'm not sure there is really going to be a pressing need for stupidly large disc sizes as much of the content is programatically generate, pathed together and rendered on the fly.

Razoric · Jun 2, 2005

sonycowboy said:
Just a promise from Square's president that a PS3 Final Fantasy was just "beyond the horizon", whatever the hell that means. That and all the squawk about Bioware coming to the PS3. But, afaik, nothing has been announced. Although, there are almost NO games announced at all at this point for the PS3 at all.

PS3 Final Fantasy is a good 3+ years away. They won't even get FF12 our the door before next year. It will be a long wait for the next one.

So far the RPG machine seems to be 360... maybe only because we know we'll be getting RPGs soon. Not in 2-3 years.

As for disc capacity, I must say I'm a little concerned for 360 in this area but not enough for me to just write off the system. For RPGs and such it's a really easy fix (multi discs).

thorns · Jun 2, 2005

Even if games come in two discs, is there ANY evidence that it affect game sales at all? Do movies that are two dvds sell worse, or albums that are 2 cds sell worse?

IJoel · Jun 2, 2005

It baffles me the jump from media size to OMG MORE RPGS! We're out of the cartridge era. DVD media is extremely cheap, and I wouldn't be surprised if 2 DVDs were cheaper than a Blu-Ray disc.

sangreal · Jun 2, 2005

thorns said:
Disc size isn't going to have much impact, especially if sony uses <2x blu-ray which will be slower than dvds. Did you know that GTA: SA only uses around 2.5GB (less than 1/3 of a dual layer DVD) and most of it is music? Which can be even reduced further with texture compression and such (no big deal for the ultra powerful processors of next-gen systems).

While I agree with your overall point, GTA:SA is just under 4.5gb, not 2.5.

AB 101 said:
Oh, and its my understanding that GT4 almost uses an entire dual layer DVD..

Thats not true either. GT4 is just over 5gb

artful_dodger said:
Didn't know that about GTA but I do know that many, many current PS2 games are absolutely pushing the limit on the storage media (like less than 400k free on the DVD).

Only one game, which is Star Ocean 3. Star Ocean 3 comes on 2 nearly full SL DVDs. No other game on xbox or ps2 comes remotely close to the DL limit. Star Ocean 3 probably could've been made considerably smaller as well.

akascream · Jun 2, 2005

sonycowboy said:
"Real RPGs"

OK.

Oh yeah, I forgot that character stats and spikey hair makes a game an rpg heh. I thought we'd already been over this and decided to distinguish between role playing games (RPG) and linear stat grinding with spoonfed, overstylized characters (JRPG).

Mrbob · Jun 2, 2005

Look at how huge the world of Oblivion is going to be. If they can fit all that on DVD we probably won't need the extra space except for fluff.

Phoenix · Jun 2, 2005

akascream said:
Oh yeah, I forgot that character stats and spikey hair makes a game an rpg heh. I thought we'd already been over this and decided to distinguish between role playing (RPG) and linear stat grinding with a spoonfed, overstylized characters (JRPG).

Wow. So lets take Morrowind which is probably the 'most real' of RPGs out there.

* still stat grinding
* still have overstyled characters
* not linear so you get lost in the massiveness of the world

Outside of the 3rd, what's the difference?

akascream · Jun 2, 2005

Outside of the 3rd, what's the difference?

The most important distinction. Actually determining your own character vs letting the developers and artists spoonfeed you thiers.

duckroll · Jun 2, 2005

thorns said:
ummm no they didn't.. why does this keep popping up???

Marconelly said:
Where does that info come from? It's not in the official specs...
I remember actually seeing it somewhere (and by somewhere I mean somewhere substantially important) but not in the official specs sheet.

sonycowboy said:
Unfortunately, they didn't. That was from someone posting comments from the Sony E3 PC on IRC and it got posted here. It wasn't stated during the PC and what they most likely did was mistakenly interpret that Blu-Ray was 6x the capacity of DVD and accidentally state it as the drive speed.

fortified_concept · Jun 2, 2005

akascream said:
Xbox360 will have more real RPGs.
PS3 will have more JRPGs.

Simple.

Hey since when western-action RPGs are the "real RPGs"?

Joe · Jun 2, 2005

duckroll said:
Sony already announced that the drive in the PS3 would be a 6x Blu-ray drive which is faster than any DVD drive out there.

STOP POSTING FAKE NEWS!!!!!!!

Nerevar · Jun 2, 2005

duckroll said:
Sony already announced that the drive in the PS3 would be a 6x Blu-ray drive which is faster than any DVD drive out there.

no, they didn't. You're wrong, and you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. It will, at best, have a 2x BRD drive. There is no chance in hell it will be faster than 4x (as that is the fastest speed of drive that they even have a prototype, working or non). I would bet my new shoes on it.

And if all you're interested in is watching semi-interactive movies, then yeah, PS3 will still be your system of choice. I doubt that will ever change as I don't see developers moving en-masse to the MS camp for storybook RPGs. I doubt the MS audience really cares about them either.

seismologist · Jun 2, 2005

akascream said:
Xbox360 will have more real RPGs.
PS3 will have more JRPGs.

Simple.

actually PS3 will probably have both. (see Elder Scrolls IV)

djtiesto · Jun 2, 2005

fortified_concept said:
Hey since when western-action RPGs are the "real RPGs"?

Yeah, seriously, I'll take the most generic, DQ clone battle system over what passes off for "combat' in Jade Empire or Fable... Both of which seemed even more constrained and forceably linear than most Japanese RPGs. Morrowind series seems to be the exception.

So you don't make your own characters, big deal... Technically, most games could be considered a "role playing game" - in Galaga you role-play as a spaceship, in Soul Calibur you role-play as a fighter.

djtiesto · Jun 2, 2005

Nerevar said:
And if all you're interested in is watching semi-interactive movies, then yeah, PS3 will still be your system of choice. I doubt that will ever change as I don't see developers moving en-masse to the MS camp for storybook RPGs. I doubt the MS audience really cares about them either.

That's why Xbots on this board nearly had a collective orgasm when MistWalker announced 2 games for the system, right?

DarienA · Jun 2, 2005

artful_dodger said:
As a pretty dedicated Sony follower, I was getting a bit scared for a while seeing the Mistwalker games that were shown for 360, but now i think PS3 will probably end up being my RPG system of choice (that is, unless the games are significantly better regardless of size - and I suppose MS can always release several discs ala PS1 FF's).

"Getting a bit scared?" People who say shit like this should be slapped in the mouth until they bleed....

that's just my personal opinion.

Pedigree Chum · Jun 2, 2005

Even if X360's 12x DVD vs. PS3's 2x BRD are comparable, wouldn't the seek times be worse on PS3? I know they can just use DVD's, but BRD disks, if they transfer the same amount of date as X360, is going to have worse load times due to increased seek times. Of course devs can get around that (look at God of War), but how many will bother?

DarienA said:
"Getting a bit scared?" People who say shit like this should be slapped in the mouth until they bleed....

that's just my personal opinion.

Totally fucking agree, TOB was the first instance I've seen. plz remove Sony's cock from your mouths guys. thx.

sonycowboy · Jun 2, 2005

Nerevar said:
no, they didn't. You're wrong, and you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. It will, at best, have a 2x BRD drive. There is no chance in hell it will be faster than 4x (as that is the fastest speed of drive that they even have a prototype, working or non). I would bet my new shoes on it.

And if all you're interested in is watching semi-interactive movies, then yeah, PS3 will still be your system of choice. I doubt that will ever change as I don't see developers moving en-masse to the MS camp for storybook RPGs. I doubt the MS audience really cares about them either.

And to add to what djiesto wrote, I'm sure I won't find a single positive comment in your post history regarding the 80% of RPG's that are JRPG's announced for the 360?

jarrod said:
Announced Next-Gen RPGs so far...

Xbox 360
-Blue Dragon (MGS/MistWalker Studio/Artoon)
-[eM] -eNCHANT arM- (From Software)
-Final Fantasy XI: Online (Square Enix)
-Lost Odyssey (MGS/MistWalker Studio/Feel Plus)
-The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (2K Games/Bethesda Softworks)

PhatSaqs · Jun 2, 2005

DarienA said:
"Getting a bit scared?" People who say shit like this should be slapped in the mouth until they bleed....

that's just my personal opinion.

:lol :lol :lol

Mobius_1 · Jun 2, 2005

And if all you're interested in is watching semi-interactive movies, then yeah, PS3 will still be your system of choice. I doubt that will ever change as I don't see developers moving en-masse to the MS camp for storybook RPGs. I doubt the MS audience really cares about them either.

The whole thing started with Final Fantasy X, the guy who made that game sucks! He should making movies instead of games. And because of him we saw games like Xenosaga, Suikoden III etc. RPG's with too many cutscenes.

But anyway there are plenty of good Japanese RPG's like: Batin Kitos, Dark Cloud 2, Radiata Stories, Shadow Hearts etc.

The Japanese were held back by the PS2 hardware, now with PS3 they will surely make some awesome looking/playing games.

jett · Jun 2, 2005

Eh...obviously the PS3 will be RPG king next gen.

Mobius_1 · Jun 2, 2005

jett said:
Eh...obviously the PS3 will be RPG king next gen.

Without Bioware? Hell no!!

sonycowboy · Jun 2, 2005

Pedigree Chum said:
Even if X360's 12x DVD vs. PS3's 2x BRD are comparable, wouldn't the seek times be worse on PS3? I know they can just use DVD's, but BRD disks, if they transfer the same amount of date as X360, is going to have worse load times due to increased seek times. Of course devs can get around that (look at God of War), but how many will bother?

Why would Blu-Ray's seek time be worse? Shouldn't it actually be better because the head needs to move less distance as the data only takes 1/6th the physical space relative to DVD?

sonycowboy · Jun 2, 2005

Mobius_1 said:
Without Bioware? Hell no!!

Uh...

Isn't the rumor du jour that Bioware is coming to PS3?

DarienA · Jun 2, 2005

Nerevar said:
And if all you're interested in is watching semi-interactive movies, then yeah, PS3 will still be your system of choice. I doubt that will ever change as I don't see developers moving en-masse to the MS camp for storybook RPGs. I doubt the MS audience really cares about them either.

Of course MS isn't just trying to sell to the CURRENT audience.... but hey... who cares about the future outlook right? We aren't trying to open up to attract other folks....

Mobius_1 · Jun 2, 2005

sonycowboy said:
Uh...

Isn't the rumor du jour that Bioware is coming to PS3?

Really? Please post it here.

Razoric · Jun 2, 2005

sonycowboy said:
Uh...

Isn't the rumor du jour that Bioware is coming to PS3?

if im correct the rumor started at gameindustry.biz or some shit and that's only because they were in the PS3 conference audience. :lol

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