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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up

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C

Chezzymann

Member
Jetman said:
Yeah, I'd be okay with that.

I think to me honestly, I have less of a problem with Rey winning that fight with Ren, than I do the complete ambiguousness of what Ren is capable of, wtf he can do, and just how well trained he is.
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Yeah a lot of these discussions can be pinned down to a lack of explanation about things in the movie. Most stuff is just briefly mentioned, like the republic and the first order. We dont really have a sense of scale.
 
I

injurai

Banned
Digital-Hero said:
Don't know if this was posted but someone mentioned much earlier in spoiler thread#1 that they were disappointed Yoda wasn't in the movie. I said I heard Yoda in the flashback/dream sequence.

Obi-Wan and Yoda are secretly in Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Both Ewan McGregor and the late Alec Guinness brought Kenobi back.

"Abrams says. “Here’s the cool part. We asked Ewan McGregor to come in and do the line. And he was awesome and we were very grateful. "

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/20/jj-abrams-reveals-obi-wan-and-yoda-are-star-wars-force-awakens
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Hah, I was right that it was post work used to recreate Alex Guinnesses voice. I doubted it was McGregor saying "Rey" my other thought was that it could have been Hamill's impression of Sir Alec. But it's cool that they chopped it from "Afraid".
 
GeekyDad

GeekyDad

Member
Dubbedinenglish said:
So was Jar-Jar for ep1. Which Jar-Jar and he had the same role. Plus you have all the pre-release hyping him with a lightsabre. To only find out he's a space janitor who is handy with a gun, but boy does he have heart!

Like I was saying I hope he eventually does get to be a Jedi too, but for all the boasting of having a black lead he gets slotted into pretty stereotypical role.
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I really don't see it, at least your comparison to Jar-jar. Jar-jar's character was completely different. He was on the level of R2 or C3PO in terms of complexity. Finn is the first character we've seen of his kind -- a storm trooper who has a crisis of conscience. The fact that he's something of a blank slate makes sense considering the notion of how a storm trooper is supposed to be raised/trained. His original name was even a number, ffs.

He had great lines, an important role in key elements of each leg of the story. What the fuck more did you want? Sounds like you wanted the entire spotlight on him. Really, this movie felt like a great ensemble experience, even with Rey as the main Light-side-Jedi focus. The story seemed like the star to me this time around, rather than simply the characters like the original three movies. I didn't have a problem with that. They gave us enough character without making it the main focus.
 
T

The One Who Knocks

Member
Frog-fu said:
Trained is a stretch and a half. Rey is tough and she can scrap... with random thugs on some dusty backwater planet.

Kylo Ren is a powerful and experienced user of the Dark Side of the force. He is the leader of the Knights of Ren, a group even Snoke seems to hold in high regard. He goes into battle with only a lightsaber and is untouchable. This guy by all accounts should be nigh untouchable to Rey but he gets clowned during the interrogation scene and rekt in their duel. It's shitty.

I think she only screwed up with the safety on the blaster. After that she took out a bunch of troopers. Not really a big deal to me since troopers get owned by everyone.

You can lob accusations all you want, but so long as you continue to ignore the actual arguments simply because you don't like them, you'll be arguing in bad faith.
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I think the bolded is where a lot of the disagreements regarding Rey seem to come from. I actually completely disagree with the bolded. Ren is powerful, sure, but I don't actually think he's remotely as competent as the bolded suggests. The impression I've gotten from the movie is that he's actually not nearly as good as he tries to suggest, and the legendary status which he has to live up to is completely and utterly crippling him as he, in fact, does not have the same natural ability and competence and must work far harder to acquire it than one would expect. He has a higher aptitude than most at the time probably do as a result of this lineage, but not extraordinarily so as Rey does. He's never faced quite a challenge and is untouchable only because he's amongst those who can't use the force, and he's the best Force user amongst a group of people who are weak/mediocre with it given the lack of places there are to be trained in it, the weak belief in the force throughout the galaxy at the time (or so it seems after the near-extinction of force-competent individuals), combined with his lineage resulting in a better-than-average affinity. I think what matters greatly in whether or not you judge Finn and Rey holding off Ren as unbelievable is entirely reliant upon how powerful you think Ren is; if you view him as somebody incredibly powerful already, then it can be unbelievable unless you think the emotional instability, blaster wound, and incomplete training are enough to stop him (which is still a plausible argument) and level him with Rey who has no training at all, but if you view him as somebody with a slightly-above average affinity with the Force, even with all of the training he has received, who is then greatly weakened by the same factors, who is up against Rey who has an extremely strong affinity with the force (demonstrated throughout the movie) who is being further bolstered by her utilisation of the dark side following the death of Han and the injury of Finn, I really don't think it's that unbelievable. I honestly feel the beat down isn't so much a reflection on Rey being competent, as it is a joint display of Ren actually being merely competent, and Rey's natural affinity with the force and her self-control (enhanced by her emotionally heightened state).

I will say I find the idea of Rey having undergone a mind-wipe compelling (doubly so if it's a Knights of the Old Republic-like situation and she is the one who slaughtered Luke's Academy even though I'm pretty sure it won't be so, even if I'm skeptical that it was Ren who did it currently due to it not being explicitly stated), and if she is it also provides a 'justification' to Rey knocking down Ren at the end, even if I find it somewhat unnecessary (but it does allow them to suggest that Ren is actually also extremely powerful, even though he's still emotionally unstable and very insecure).

I had written the following before mostly discarding it (because I don't feel it's refined enough to properly express my feelings yet as I've only seen it once) in relation to Ren and Rey, and their level of expertise, but I'm going to include it below just for anybody somewhat interested in the difference here, which expounds more on why I view it as such:

I really don't see the issue with Rey's aptitude with the force throughout the film, or her managing to hold off Ren and cut him down to size, whether Rey has been force mind-wiped or not.

Ren starts off the movie appearing to be an incredibly capable and competent force user. He gives off an aura of confidence in his initial appearance, and the introduction of Force Stasis in the cinematic universe through him creates a striking impression of power. Similarly, his use of the force in interrogating Poe and breaking him, again, gives off the impression that he's a competent individual with a strong understanding of the force. His ability to sense disturbances in the force re-emphasise his connection to it, and his first outburst makes him seem to be a frightening individual with a huge anger that results in a strong grasp of the Dark Side.

These initial impressions though, are gradually dispelled throughout the movie. Rey uses the force throughout the movie, but does so in a more subtle way than we usually see in the Star Wars movies. She uses the force in her knowledge of what to do, and has her abilities greatly enhanced beyond normal means. She has great reflexes and develops an 'intuition' as to what to do, an intuition and understanding that's gradually revealed to be an ability with the force. She doesn't understand what or know that she's using the force, she doesn't even (apparently) believe in the force or the stories of what have happened in the decades prior, and has lived a tough life on Jakku where she had to hone her natural survival skills and instincts to survive, making do with what she has in order to survive and having a somewhat challenging path, allowing her to get a grasp of variety of adaptable skills which become further enhanced by her very strong connection with the force. The journey she embarks upon with Finn and BB8 result in her becoming more aware of the force, and the reality of it, and the experience in Maz's allows her to become clearly aware of her strong connection with the force.

It's around this time, that Ren's own incompetence begins to become clear. While he has a connection to the force, he doesn't have the same intuition with it that Rey does, and clearly doesn't have as good of a grasp as we thought he did, as we reflect upon how he doesn't realise that he should have stopped Finn during their initial encounter, and he doesn't learn from the force that he should still capture BB8. Our biggest insight comes from the interrogation with Rey. Without training, Rey is able to resist him. Without training, Rey is able to push back into his mind, and learn of his strong insecurity that he isn't good enough, and isn't nearly as strong as Darth Vader despite his desire that he should be. She manages to goad him into taking off his mask, and he visits Snope desperate, afraid, and completely uncertain what to do. This fear that he's not as strong as Vader can only possibly be enhanced after Rey knocks him completely. After this moment, his actions take a completely different light. He has never, it seems, been challenged by anybody competent in the force before, or with much of a connection. Everybody we had seen him do battle with prior had been somebody without a connection to the force, he'd never been challenged, or faced a challenge.

Rey manages to listen to the force, and allow it to guide her, not with a knowledge of what's happening, but knowing that it feels right, and accepting it to escape, but Ren doesn't, Ren fights off his own feelings at every point, and is completely dominated by them. Whereas the first outburst appeared initially like a great anger that was fueling a grasp of the dark side, the second completely undermines that; he is completely unable to control his emotions, he's being torn apart by his insecurity, every failure crushes him and confirms that he isn't as strong as Vader and that he is actually weaker, he doesn't really know what to do and cannot contain his rage to strengthen his power but just lashes out childishly. We begin to see, from here, how his strength with the force is not as strong as we were lead to believe. While yes he senses Han on the planet, he can't use the force to sense that Han is behind him or nearby as he is is on the walkway, he continues to be tormented by the light side, and resist the pull towards it. He waivers continuously and has no idea what to really do. He doesn't listen to his instincts and isn't guided by the force, he acts how he wants to be, desperately trying to live up to Vader and desperate to be as strong as him, but clearly isn't. Snoke can sense this inner turmoil too, and uses it try and goad him into killing Han. He hopes that it'll settle his hesitation and inner turmoil, and allow him to become adept with the dark side and fuel his power, but it only further emotionally it cripples him in the moment even though he does manage to ascend Vader and murder family, but is then completely taken off-guard by Chewie and can't stop the blaster from hitting him.

He confronts Finn and Rey. He isn't overpowered by either, they're holding him back, and fleeing, more or less until Rey finally accepts the force and follows its guidance in the fight, and swiftly overpowers him. He has been trained in the force, sure, but he is desperate to live up to Vader. His emotional state is all over the place following the death of his father. He is desperately afraid of facing Rey, a character who has only confirmed his inadequacy up to this point. He has a powerful, legendary lineage and is afraid that he won't be able to live up to it, and has a huge amount resting on his shoulders. In his wounded state, he needs to prove not to Snoke, but to himself, that he is able to live up to Darth Vader's power and take out Rey, yet as soon as she accepts the force and takes the lightsaber, he is again confronted with the knowledge that he isn't the most powerful person in the galaxy. There's no doubt he's somebody powerful, if he was the person involved in destroying Luke's Academy he obviously managed to prove his competence to many of those in training [but again, none of them presumably had the same lineage that he had, and the same natural affinity with the force], his relation to Anakin, his position in the Knights of Ren [but it goes back to the same thing, he has a natural affinity with the force, how many of them can say the same], and his training from Snoke), but he clearly is not as powerful (potentially, anyway) as Rey is, doesn't have control over himself (in contrast to Rey who at that point has accepted the force, wishes to be guided by it, and is empowered by the dark side after the death of Han and the injury of one of her only friends, Finn), and really is not as gifted with the force as he wants, and needs, to be, leading to his huge insecurities which further crippled him. He was presumably forced into training, and told what he had to live up to, but just simply is not able for this, and it crushes him and makes him desperate in his quest for more power, power which he feels he can only obtain from a complete acceptance and knowledge of the dark side even if this isn't what he feels tugging him along and guiding him. I actually think it makes Ren one of the most compelling aspects of the new movie, and a rather unique character in the Star Wars cinematic universe/
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M

MrHoot

Member
Honestly, despite all my nitpicks i'm just so glad and excited to have good star wars again. A good movie about great characters in a space fantasy setting, and it washed away all the sour taste that the prequels left. I'm so eager to watch more of these characters. Before TFA I was like "Yeah it'll probably be good" but I wasn't just THAT invested in the whole thing. Now it's like my inner kid is screaming again for that magic and my only hope is that they don't fuck it up for episode 8
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
Jetman said:
I don't think Rey thinking happy thoughts or whatever she did to keep Ren out of her mind
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She didn't keep Ren out of her mind. He went up in there. She had to push him out. You think that extended back & forth of them both straining against each other was the visual representation of "happy thoughts?"

Ghaleon already addressed the other stuff.

edit: I love when The One Who Knocks posts about anything. Always good stuff.
 
D

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Kylo likely never won a significant fight against a serious opponent anyway, since none of the Jedi and Sith remain. All he killed in his life is likely normal humans, Padawans when he rebelled against Luke, and Ewoks when he retrieved Vader's helmet. Aside from Luke, Ewoks are probably the greatest enemy he has faced.
 
Digital-Hero

Digital-Hero

Member
injurai said:
Hah, I was right that it was post work used to recreate Alex Guinnesses voice. I doubted it was McGregor saying "Rey" my other thought was that it could have been Hamill's impression of Sir Alec. But it's cool that they chopped it from "Afraid".
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I swore I heard old Obi say Rey in the movie, but i kind of brushed it off. Very nice touch. Abrams did good.
 
K

Kor of Memory

Member
VistraNorrez said:
So everyone talks about Kylo getting shot as making him weaker. What about Rey getting force thrown 20 feet in the air against a tree by Kylo? She was knocked unconscious and should probably have broken bones. Shouldn't that affect her abilities too?

Also Chewbacca should have kept firing at Kylo. He could have easily killed him with another shot.

I'm just nitpicking here, but just some food for thought.
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I like to imagine that in a world where Han has a Son, Chewbacca has a god son.

So there has to be some emotional attachment there, too.
 
Hari Seldon

Hari Seldon

Member
Thought the movie was great, but mostly because of Rey / Han Solo. I don't know how the rest of the movies are going to go without Harrison Ford. I did highly appreciate the large amount of space battles and general space shit in a movie called "Starwars". That was sorely missing from 1-3.
 
A

Alex_Mexico

Member
PsychoWARD23 said:
Anyone else find it odd how easily Captain Phasma (lol) gives up? I thought for sure she was either gonna alert the base or refuse to let the shields down or something... She seemed like she would rather die than betray the First Order.
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I've been wondering, did Phasma died? She was in the Starkiller base when it exploded, was she not? Han was saying they'd drop her in a trash compactor and shit.

I hope she isn't dead. For all the hype and awesome design she barely had her time in the spotlight. Let her not be the new Boba Fett.
 
F

FriendlyGoat

Member
Jetman said:
I don't think Rey thinking happy thoughts or whatever she did to keep Ren out of her mind translates well to Mind Tricking or Force Grabbing something. There's never been an instance in the Star Wars universe of a person using Force powers like this with zero training.
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You're coming at this too much like a video game or with the baggage of the old EU. You're treating it like "Mind Trick" or "Force Grab" are specific skills to learn after leveling up, and not the result of limitless possibility and imagination. They might be specific skills one would learn from a teacher, but that doesn't preclude these powers manifesting out of necessity. Take the "force grab". She needs to get to the sword before Kylo, and that desire manifests through this vague power surging through her. The force is more nebulous than that. It calls back directly to the "feel the force and make it happen" from the OT. You don't necessarily need to be taught to make it happen, but teaching can help you reliably take control of it.
 
W

WadiumArcadium

Member
DiipuSurotu said:
Kylo likely never won a significant fight against a serious opponent anyway, since none of the Jedi and Sith remain. All he killed in his life is likely normal humans, Padawans when he rebelled against Luke, and Ewoks when he retrieved Vader's helmet. Aside from Luke, Ewoks are probably the greatest enemy he has faced.
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Well it sounds like he wiped out Luke's academy with the help of the other Knights of Ren. How powerful they were at that stage is unknown though.
 
E

El Topo

Member
DiipuSurotu said:
Kylo likely never won a significant fight against a serious opponent anyway, since none of the Jedi and Sith remain. All he killed in his life is likely normal humans, Padawans when he rebelled against Luke, and Ewoks when he retrieved Vader's helmet. Aside from Luke, Ewoks are probably the greatest enemy he has faced.
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I'm not sure he defeated any Ewoks. Probably just snuck in, picked up the helmet and then ran away when they saw him.
 
V

Vashetti

Banned
So is the novelisation canon?

In the last thread I saw a screen of a page from it regarding Snoke, with loads more dialogue than the movie.

If it's canon then I'll definitely pick it up sometime because I want all the info.
 
G

golem

Member
Alex_Mexico said:
I've been wondering, did Phasma died? She was in the Starkiller base when it exploded, was she not? Han was saying they'd drop her in a trash compactor and shit.

I hope she isn't dead. For all the hype and awesome design she barely had her time in the spotlight. Let her not be the new Boba Fett.
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In Star Wars people don't die in trash compactors
 
J

Jetman

Member
GhaleonEB said:
That's not true; she picks up on what to do about as fast Luke did in ANH. Denying this requires some serious mental gymnastics.

Luke deflects a laser blast with a lightsaber (three times in a row!), while blind, after just a couple moments of trying. At the end of the film, Obi-wan tells him to "use the force". How, exactly? What training did Luke get to be able to do what he did at the end of the film? Be specific.
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Yeah, but those uses of the Force relied more on instincts for something he already knew how to do - pilot a ship+shooting with it, and having some vision or fore sight on where the laser blasts would be and moving accordingly. So they both involved some kind of prophetic sight. Not physically willing a person to do something which he couldn't do until Return (presumably after training with Yoda) or straight up moving objects with the Force (which he also didn't do until Yoda showed him).
 
V

Vincent Alexander

Member
DiipuSurotu said:
Kylo likely never won a significant fight against a serious opponent anyway, since none of the Jedi and Sith remain. All he killed in his life is likely normal humans, Padawans when he rebelled against Luke, and Ewoks when he retrieved Vader's helmet. Aside from Luke, Ewoks are probably the greatest enemy he has faced.
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And to throw a bit more in, Kylo still had feelings for his father that kept him attached to the light. As Kylo says himself, he is being torn apart. This is a bad guy who hasn't fully embraced the power of the dark side and is playing in the kiddie pool still.
 
B

Boke1879

Member
IMO Snoke put it best in regards to Ren. "Not even you have faced such a test"

It's safe to say Ren failed that test which is why Snoke told Hux to retrieve Ren and bring him back to "complete" his training.
 
F

Fata1moose

Banned
Loved the visual and sound effects used with the force in this movie. It was minimal, but enough to make the force seem powerful. Kylo stopping the laser at the beginning looked great.

OriginofHysteria said:
That probably has more to do with Ford himself than JJ. I'm sure he would have loved to keep him alive.
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And Kasdan, they both wanted Han to die in the original trilogy, but Lucas wouldn't allow it. I knew he would die once Kasdan was attached to the project.
 
D

diaspora

Member
Rey's victory over Ren is generally fine. His guts are spilling out and got slashed like twice by the First Order's best stormtrooper (Finn). You take that and have him go up against someone powerful in the dark side of the force (Rey) and it's no wonder he lost.
 
D

Dead

well not really...yet
diaspora said:
Rey's victory over Ren is generally fine. His guts are spilling out and got slashed like twice by the First Order's best stormtrooper (Finn). You take that and have him go up against someone powerful in the dark side of the force (Rey) and it's no wonder he lost.
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Wait what
 
L

Liquidsnake

Banned
I digested this overnight.

Adam Driver was on another level. His beating of his wound was fkn awesome, like he was trying to syke himself out.

Daisy Ridley is a revaluation her facials are so good.

Actually all new comers were amazing. There were some beautiful shots in this movie.

Man it's just hard to put int words. I want to see it again.
 
F

FriendlyGoat

Member
Jetman said:
Yeah, but those uses of the Force relied more on instincts for something he already knew how to do - pilot a ship+shooting with it, and having some vision or fore sight on where the laser blasts would be and moving accordingly. So they both involved some kind of prophetic sight. Not physically willing a person to do something which he couldn't do until Return (presumably after training with Yoda) or straight up moving objects with the Force (which he also didn't do until Yoda showed him).
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You say Luke couldn't move objects until Yoda showed him, but you must have missed the beginning of the film where he made an object move without Yoda showing him (lightsaber in the snow). Without having been taught, he reached out through the force and made it happen.
 
F

Frog-fu

Banned
OriginofHysteria said:
I think you're giving Ren way too much credit. Guy was as green as could ever be compared to literally everyone we've seen who has held a lightsaber.
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No, I'm not. The movie sets up him up to be this great badass and foil to our heroes. Everything up until the third act sets that up before he is unceremoniously dumped in the jobber pile.

The choreography in his duels with Finn and Rey demonstrate how much more powerful and disciplined he is. Ren is toying with the both of them until that dumbass power up.

LaserBuddha said:
Arguing that in bad faith because I reject the intentional misrepresentation of what happened in that movie?

Rey used straight up martial arts moves on her attackers.

Ren is deliberately portrayed as more sloppy and volatile, and is obviously extremely conflicted about what he is doing. His mind is in turmoil and his self-control is weak.

No where do we see anything to suggest that Ren is necessarily a better fighter than Rey. His only verified advantage is better knowledge and control of his force powers.

Ren was very seriously wounded several times (would which would each take a normal person out of thrig It or kill them) before fighting Rey in a type of combat that suits her strengths. And Rey only triumphs because of tapping into what are obviously incredibly strong latent force powers and used sheer force of will to overpower Ren after he had out-fought her.

She is either just much more inherently powerful in the force than Ren, or just has better focus and menal peace to wield the force, or only just barely edged him out due to his injuries, or some combination of the three.

The story comes right out and tells you that Rey doesn't know how to use a blaster but won't admit it, and she doesn't even know how to hold it when Han gives it to her. And she fucks up again when trying to shoot with the safety on. The best she can do is spray and pray but let's not let that get in the way of a trumped up Mary Sue accusation.
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"Intentional misrepresentation" - there is your bad faith. You approach this from a combative perspective. Like we are intentionally trying mischaracterise and lambast the film simply for having opinions you don't agree with. It's obnoxious.

lmao, Rey didn't use martial arts. She gave those thugs an old fashioned asswhooping. There wasn't much grace to it. It was a scrap. She got hurt, but they got hurt way more because she's much tougher and a better fighter with a stick she obviously knows how to use.

Ren is volatile, not reckless. When things don't go his way he is prone to throwing a tantrum, but he doesn't actually do anything that is reckless. Even when he is fighting Rey and has her on the ropes, he's trying to seduce her to the Dark Side. This whole "Ren is a rage baby" thing is overblown. Yeah he is a rage baby and a poser, but not to the extent I am seeing claimed by some in this thread.

We are told Ren trained under Luke and now Snoke. He is the leader of the Knights of Ren. Snoke alludes to having tested him several times before. Stop trying to downplay Ren to justify obvious nonsense. He was poised to be a force to be reckoned with. Turns out he wasn't.

Rey fights with a staff, and we've only seen her use it successfully against random thugs. She had no business standing his equal, let alone owning him in a lightsaber duel. What happened in TFA is like if Luke with incomplete training had owned Vader simply by tapping into the Force. It would have been just as dumb.

I've already had this long ass argument that didn't go anywhere, but I don't buy that killing Han had Ren in a tizzy. He had a moment of weakness when Chewie shot him - something he otherwise should have been able to defend himself against - but immediately after that he hunts down Finn and Rey and fucks them up. All the while they're fighting, none of the choreography suggests he is fighting purely on rage. He is deliberate with Finn until he gets knicked and then proceeds to wreck him. He goes savage on Rey but still holds back enough to try and recruit her. There no wide swinging arcs, he doesn't scream his head off aside from calling Finn a traitor, he doesn't stumble, he doesn't miss by a mile or swings his saber aimlessly. Everything about the way he fights suggests that he is still very much in control even if he is in a lot of pain and pissed the fuck off. Whatever turmoil he is feeling is compartmentalised, bottled for another time, perhaps the next time he is alone with granddaddy's helmet.

Rey is awkward with the blaster but there is no pray and spray. She is a good shot. It doesn't matter. In fact, her excellent flying, mechanic skills, toughness and all that don't really matter. The only really dumb things about her is absurd proficiency with the Force and lightsabers, because those are two things previous storytelling in this franchise has told us HAVE TO BE earned. They were not in TFA. They were given.
 
S

Syf

Banned
Fata1moose said:
Loved the visual and sound effects used with the force in this movie. It was minimal, but enough to make the force seem powerful. Kylo stopping the laser at the beginning looked great.
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This reminds me of how silly it looked at times in the prequels, like when Anakin and Obi-Wan tried to force push each other during their duel in III. Agreed that adding in some small effects made a big difference.
 
A

Armaros

Member
Jetman said:
Yeah, but those uses of the Force relied more on instincts for something he already knew how to do - pilot a ship+shooting with it, and having some vision or fore sight on where the laser blasts would be and moving accordingly. So they both involved some kind of prophetic sight. Not physically willing a person to do something which he couldn't do until Return (presumably after training with Yoda) or straight up moving objects with the Force (which he also didn't do until Yoda showed him).
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And His innate skills at the time, living with his uncle and aunt all of those years make it believable.

But Rey living alone on a secluded junk planet and having fend for her self doesn't?
 
S

SparkleMotion

Member
Why couldn't they have a 5 second scene of Phasma jumping into a ship that stormtroopers are getting on to escape the Starkiller. Imagine if the last they showed of Darth Vader in A New Hope was him on the Death Star and then in the next scene it blows up. People would rightfully think he's dead. Are they trying to make her being alive in the sequel a surprise?
 
V

Vincent Alexander

Member
Boke1879 said:
IMO Snoke put it best in regards to Ren. "Not even you have faced such a test"

It's safe to say Ren failed that test which is why Snoke told Hux to retrieve Ren and bring him back to "complete" his training.
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He passed by killing his father, his last loving attachment to the light. Now that he cut the last part of good from his life that was tearing him apart, as Kylo says, he can complete his training as a Sith. Or whatever. Expect a Darth title in the next one for Kylo.
 
A

Anno

Member
Just got back from my first viewing and really liked it. Rey is a brilliant character.

I'm a little surprised to see how many people are convinced Ren was portrayed as some powerful warrior, as I thought the movie did a pretty good job of making him seem rather weak and inexperienced once something goes even the slightest bit wrong.
 
B

Boke1879

Member
Liquidsnake said:
I digested this overnight.

Adam Driver was on another level. His beating of his wound was fkn awesome, like he was trying to syke himself out.

Daisy Ridley is a revaluation her facials are so good.

Actually all new comers were amazing. There were some beautiful shots in this movie.

Man it's just hard to put int words. I want to see it again.
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Do it. I saw it again last night after watching it on Friday. It helps because you pick up on/see more. I enjoyed it just as much my second time. I'll probably wait a week and go back next Saturday after Christmas. Then I'll wait for the Blu Ray release.
 
D

diaspora

Member
BronsonLee said:
The only thing Finn is the best at is losing
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"FN-2187, your targeting was exemplary. According to the simulation, you fired your weapon only thirty-six times, scoring kills with thirty-five of those. You deployed one explosive, which resulted in the achieving of the objective and another six enemies killed. All of you should take your example from FN-2187."
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"FN-2187 has the potential to be one of the finest stormtroopers I have ever seen."
"From what I just observed, Captain, I agree."
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.
 
G

golem

Member
Frog-fu said:
No, I'm not. The movie sets up him up to be this great badass and foil to our heroes. Everything up until the third act sets that up before he is unceremoniously dumped in the jobber pile.
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Yes it sets him up to be a badass, then spends the rest of the movie tearing him down to show that he is a jobber. Just accept the character for what it is.
 
V

victreeb3l

Member
BlastProcessing said:
I dunno about you, but all of the most dangerous people I have ever run into were punk ass dudes with daddy issues. To me he seemed dangerous in a way that no other Star Wars villain has been.

He's a personification of the idea that fear and weakness are the expressway to the dark side.
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Sure he might become an incredibly dangerous villain later on but he definitely didnt seem that way in this movie.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Jetman said:
Yeah, but those uses of the Force relied more on instincts for something he already knew how to do - pilot a ship+shooting with it, and having some vision or fore sight on where the laser blasts would be and moving accordingly. So they both involved some kind of prophetic sight. Not physically willing a person to do something which he couldn't do until Return (presumably after training with Yoda) or straight up moving objects with the Force (which he also didn't do until Yoda showed him).
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This is kind of what I'm talking about. Luke had never so much as used a sword before in his life and he's blocking shots with one while blind within moments of trying, but you are rationalizing it away. Yet you can't accept someone who was a melee fighter for most of her life using a sword effectively.
 
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