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Writing in games that makes you uncomfortable.

I just rmembered this nonsense from DEHR

square-enix-responds-to-allegations-of-racism-in-deus-ex-human-revolution.jpg


what the fuck were they thinking? I couldn't believe what I was hearing

Image isn't showing for me but I'm assuming its Letitia?
Honestly could not believe that when I saw it. Like, my jaw hit the floor.
 

Eumi

Member
Whilst I think most of these complaints with persona 4 are completely off base and don't actually understand what was happening in that game, you know what part isn't great? The drama club.

It just seemed really weird to me. You're following this girl to the hospital every day to check on her but, like, she never really asked? You see some very private moments between her and her family but it always just felt kinda weird and awkward. The mc being silent probably doesn't help.

Also, for Trails, whilst I actually love the romance (it's handled super well ok? And how many games let you experience a romance from a female perspective?), they have something of an issue with gay characters. I'm glad they take the time to write them into main roles, but god I wish they weren't all sexually aggressive, it has some really bad connotations that I just can't shake.
 

ZdkDzk

Member
The thing with Persona 4 is I'd have been fine with all that (Yosuke>>>Chie>Others, being homophobic), if the game itself had had more of a positive perspective on homosexuality. Kids are stupid and afraid of 'different.' That's true to life. Don't act like there is something they should be afraid of or just use their antics as comic relief, though. The game needed a storyline that problematized their attitudes.

Was bad about the fat girl too.

Also, Naoto was fine considered alone but in context it felt like just another rejection of queer stuff. Too much flirting with it and dumping it.

I'm not sure it's a total excuse, but their treatment of Kanji and Noato make a lot more sense when you consider that at some point in development (late enough for there to be english audio) Yosuke's max SL had him implied coming out as gay, or at least in love with the MC. But it still got cut in the end, and it could have just been intended as fan service, so there's not much weight to it at this point.
 

Opa-Pa

Member
Loveless from Crisis Core is uncomfortable in the cringeworthy sense. Maybe specifically Genesis' rendition of it.

Also the name Genesis.

That game is the poster child for awful SE games' writing, but everything regarding Genesis specifically was the absolute worst. I still can't believe I endured that garbage to the end.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
The fact that she is such a bitch just makes no sense whatsoever. I guess that's anime for you.

She wants to get filthy rich and wants to find who was responsible for ruining her family.

I'll take that over the 1,000 year old lolis. Plus they're are a ton of violent japanese games out there.

that is actually pretty niche even in Japan
 
FFXV..... mostly because it is rushed and turned into the cheapest shot of a story they could go for under a deadline. It even feels during late game that SE was under a timer because there are no
quests in the second part of the game and no exploration.
With all the beautiful locales, it was hard for me to care about anything when it was so distorted.
 

nOoblet16

Member
It was actually a pure accident.

The level-designers wanted an informat character shortly before going gold. Due to time restrictions they had to reuse another character model. The animators didn't have context about the model's appearance and what not and choose to make her pick trash eventhough her clothes didn't make her look like a hobo. When it came to voice overs, the only available actor thst late in the production happened to be a black woman, who lacked context as well regarding the character and then she choose to play the character that way. In the end the developers realise what the problem was but it really was a series of unfortunate circumstances rather than anything else.
 

Breads

Banned
Pretty much any David Cage scene that involves women getting victimized that we also see naked at some point.

In a vacuum the individual scenes don't bother me... but after hearing the cut dialogue from Jodie's Bizarre Adventure and the revelation that he kept a scrap book of Ellen Page before he cast her I can't shake the feeling that he is kind of a creep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAzcVPfgp6Q
 
The whole "will they-won't they" subplot from Shadow Hearts: Covenant between Yuri and Karin.

She's Anne - his mom dudeeeeeee. Travels back in time after the final battle and settles down with his father.
 
Also, everything in Ground Zeroes. Kojima's really straddling the line between plain bad taste and misguided shock value there.

Also almost everything regarding Quiet in MGSV... I respect Kojima and he's a great game designer, but damn he can be a fucking creep sometimes.

Definitely agree with the above, as I've mentioned elsewhere. But also:
Devil may Cry did this a few times... actually I could just go on describing the entire game...

...it was very cringey in a try hard 'look how edgy we are treating all these things super disrespectfully' type of way...

I think I see a tend here. Most of these games are Japanese.

Well it makes sense, Japanese media is weird as hell to westerners. But they would probably look at the American mainstream obsession with guns and over the top militaristic or visceral violence as weird and out there as well. And make generalizations about our culture to boot.

The 'edginess' in Devil May Cry's 2013 reboot always seemed like Capcom's half-baked attempt to match God of War's sales by matching God of War's overwhelmingly bad taste... by way of a Western developer (Ninja Theory).

Admittedly, I've never actually played more than a few hours in total from the US-developed God of War series, so I can only report 'anecdotally' that whenever I was curious enough to look into the story or gameplay of God of War, it wasn't long before I came across an example of extreme cruelty and/or bad taste.

The example that stands out the most is the scenario from God of War III, in which a character is rendered in as much 'detail' as Quiet, rendered to be even more luridly/scantily clad than Quiet, and is brutally murdered by Kratos:
Poseidon's Princess a "random mortal"? Pretty sure that one was "controversial."
I just looked this up, what the actual fuck.

Kratos is an awful awful person.
Awfully convenient to ignore the mortals given how he kills a metric fuckton of them during God of War III. Not to mention what happens to Poseidon's princess...ugh.

Perhaps even more surprisingly -- as even the above-quoted GAF thread will show (it goes on for over 5 pages) -- there are plenty of folks who love and will defend the character of Kratos, often by way of an appeal to the assumed cultural prestige (and/or other 'sacred' qualities) of the (Greek) mythological source material.

Also:
But [others might] look at American mainstream obsession with guns and over the top militaristic or visceral violence as weird and out there as well. And make generalizations about our culture to boot.

I think Kojima's work is worth considering, in this context, as Steven Poole has written:
https://thepointmag.com/2015/criticism/metal-gear-solid-v

...Yet while Kojima’s games are berserk in many ways, they are not the standard kind of first-person shooter in which thousands of indistinguishable enemy grunts (always Middle Eastern or Russian) die at the point of the player’s phallic rifle... In their dynamic procedure as well as their scripted rhetoric, Kojima’s games are stealthily anti-war war games. In contrast to the fairground bullet-shower of the billion-grossing Call of Duty series (the equivalent in war-themed video games of Michael Bay movies)... The player may thus feel dirty and guilty for doing what is mere routine in other games. As well as in other art forms: MGSV’s emphasis on fanatical caution and planning, as well as the humane neutralizing of enemies, works too as an implicit rebuke to gung-ho war movies—in particular, in this case, the Afghanistan-set Rambo III (1988), whose hero deals very differently with the Soviet occupation...

MGSV: Ground Zeroes (2013) saw the hero tasked with rescuing prisoners from a CIA “black site” prison in Cuba... visually the camp was obviously Guantánamo: the prisoners were dressed in orange jumpsuits, some with hoods over their heads and the victims of torture... at one moment, the games will clownishly revel in the clichés of the form; the next moment they will deconstruct those very clichés and force the player to confront real suffering... What Metal Gear Solid is satirizing in particular—almost uniquely for high-budget blockbuster products in this medium, or for that matter in cinema and TV—is so omnipresent in most modern fiction that it almost escapes notice. It is what I have called national-security ideology. Its key tenets are familiar: the enemy is fanatical and unreasonable, while Western government operatives are empathetic heroes; killing civilians with drones is just regrettable “collateral damage” in a righteous mission against the irrational fanatics (as in season three of the TV series Homeland); and torture always works to elicit time-critical information, as in Zero Dark Thirty (2012), Homeland, and of course 24...

In the newest game the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan is explained to the player in ways that make the parallels with the later American adventure there inescapable. Briefings on (virtual) audiocassette explain that the army of the USSR has invaded in order to counteract “the spread of Islamic revivalism,” and that “Afghanistan has become the Soviet Union’s Vietnam.” Knowing nods to the present day are littered subtly everywhere: in the TV-style opening cast list for the game’s “episodes,” there is a credit for “Enemy Combatants”: a phrase familiar from the Bush-Cheney government’s rhetorical creativity in attempting to avoid acknowledging any “prisoners of war” to whom duties of care would be owed under the Geneva Conventions. Here, the “Enemy Combatants” are the Soviet soldiers, but the casting note works to plant a seed of ambivalence in the player’s attitude towards them...

In the past, the series has had as its satirical targets global conspiracy theories, terrorism scares, and modern military Keynesianism, according to which increased defense spending promotes economic growth—Metal Gear Solid 4 (2008) was all about “private military contractors” and the “war economy,” and had the player buy upgraded weapons from a cynically wisecracking arms dealer named Drebin. The hero of all the games, Snake, is always caught up in the madness of a war-obsessed world. Reluctantly, he must make more war to try to stop it... the film Zero Dark Thirty, for example, was predicated on the idea—promoted by insider “consultants” to the movie—that U.S. torture of prisoners resulted in actionable intelligence. (A canard that has been repeatedly refuted.) Some media critics considered this objectionable, yet the conversation was conducted respectfully. An art-film blockbuster can get things wrong, but it is still considered a serious contribution to such debates. A video game is not... Hideo Kojima’s games notoriously combine sharp reflections on contemporary political themes (The Phantom Pain concerns itself at length with issues of nuclear proliferation) with overscripted, didactic longueurs... Yet as a cultural figure Kojima may be... someone who first introduces a player or reader to the iniquities perpetrated in modern history by the “good” guys. In a still-young medium whose most successful products are deeply conservative, he insists that video games can and should convey critical arguments about international relations and jus in bello...
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
The whole "will they-won't they" subplot from Shadow Hearts: Covenant between Yuri and Karin.

She's Anne - his mom dudeeeeeee. Travels back in time after the final battle and settles down with his father.

To be fair, we didn't really know about the spoilers until the ending, and even then it's more about Yuri letting go or not.
He manages to fix it with Alice though.
 

Rymuth

Member
Yakuza 5 - Haruka's story

Helping Haruka succeed in such a disgusting industry reaaaaally made my skin crawl. I've known this character since she was a little girl over multiple games - so watching her enter a profession where she's seen as a piece of meat did NOT sit well with me
 

Dunkley

Member
and i forgot about Persona 4's sickening treatment of gay people. Just no. Yosuke, no, its not funny.

This x1000, each new playthrough I get a bit more uncomfortable about Yosuke and how he treats Kanji.

Makes me really wonder how it would've changed if Yosuke's romance route had actually been in, like if he was like meant to in denial about his sexuality or something and that's why he's such a huge asshole.

Either way however he is the worst.
 
...Admittedly, I've never actually played more than a few hours in total from the US-developed God of War series, so I can only report 'anecdotally' that whenever I was curious enough to look into the story or gameplay of God of War, it wasn't long before I came across an example of extreme cruelty and/or bad taste.

The example that stands out the most is the scenario from God of War III, in which a character is rendered in as much 'detail' as Quiet, rendered to be even more luridly/scantily clad than Quiet, and is brutally murdered by Kratos...

Perhaps even more surprisingly -- as even the above-quoted GAF thread will show (it goes on for over 5 pages) -- there are plenty of folks who love and will defend the character of Kratos, often by way of an appeal to the assumed cultural prestige (and/or other 'sacred' qualities) of the (Greek) mythological source material...

Just to briefly follow-up, Chaobreaker describes the above-mentioned scene from God of War III as follows:
I just saw footage of the Poseidon princess in GoW 3 and I'm starting to question how these GoW games ever got the critical praise and following they got.

EDIT: Maybe I'm missing the context, but this video game dude that people fondly likes just dragged around this half-naked sex slave like a abusive boyfriend for a couple a minutes and while she was literally begging for mercy, he doomed her to a painful and messy death just to get through a single gate.

What. The. Fuck.
 

THEaaron

Member
Well, even after reading all comments real life happens to write even worse stories than that.

Don't know where to draw the line between artistical freedom and bad writing and so on. I like when stories reflect real life rather than trying to induce some unreal utopia into peoples minds.


€: it can't be cast upon all comments, of course. But I don't see why there shouldn't be problems in games like harassing fat people when it clearly happens in the world. I have the comments from Persona in my mind right now and there is clearly a mix of bad writing and some cringiness, but those situations are out there. What I would like to see is a more complex reflection of that behaviour so that you are experiencing those situations but in a context where it is clear that it is faulty behaviour.
 

Catvoca

Banned
I love Steins;Gate but the way they handle Rukako with the whole "he's actually a boy" stuff comes across very homophobic/ transphobic, which made me pretty uncomfortable reading it. It's a pity since I think the writing otherwise is strong. Steins;Gate 0 seems a little better about it so far, at least.
 

Aizo

Banned
"Fly with the angels"
Ace Combat 6 wingman every mission
How dare you butcher that phenomenal line.
It's "Go dance with the angels!!" My friend that I played through it with still says that line with me from time to time. Shit's hilarious. It's an insult sometimes, but sometimes it isn't? I don't understand Emmerian culture.
 
Persona 4's treatment of Kanji and the girls can sometimes be reeeeeeally >.>. Especially Kanji, yikes. Like, I know most of it is through Yosuke who's a dumbass anyway, but the game never really calls him out on it either, so you have to sit through stuff like the tent scene and it's just profoundly uncomfortable and gross. Ick.
Lol what. Yosuke always gets the karmic beatdown for his assholery.
 
Pretty much any David Cage scene that involves women getting victimized that we also see naked at some point.

In a vacuum the individual scenes don't bother me... but after hearing the cut dialogue from Jodie's Bizarre Adventure and the revelation that he kept a scrap book of Ellen Page before he cast her I can't shake the feeling that he is kind of a creep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAzcVPfgp6Q

Aiden hates it when his sister is bullied, but is surprisingly okay with her being raped? lol wtf
 
It's strange because Troy Baker says "Kanji was clearly gay", but I actually don't think that is clear in the game at all.

I always felt a little uncomfortable that that game had a gay character who wasn't actually gay (maybe) and a trans character who wasn't actually trans (maybe).
I wonder if he thinks that way because this was part of the voice direction he was given, or that it was just his interpretation. Kanji's Phantom does ham things up pretty hard, and that might explain why Troy's so convinced.

I think he's wrong either way. Kanji's entire arc was about questioning if having stereotypically feminine interests made you less of a man and gay. This made him repress that part of him into that phantom of his, and put up the tough guy exterior. Kanji eventually came to the conclusion that female interests are acceptable for a man. He could still be gay after all, but it would kind of negate the point of his entire story. We also have him crushing on Naoto, even after she was outed as a girl, so there's that too.

Naoto also has a similar arc about societal gender roles. She wondered if she had to be a man to be taken seriously, and her own history sadly enough made the answer to that question "sometimes". She did learn to accept herself and be prepared to face adversity though, which I guess isn't a bad lesson.

Both stories are kind of tricky, since they touch on topics, but still approach them from a straight cis perspective. Since the subject is rarely explored in games, people do have expectations to explore them further from non cis or straight perspectives. I do think the two complement each other thematically well though. I just wish they went through with Yosuke's sexuality struggles as well. It would seem would offset and contextualise some of his toxicity, and it would mesh well after the subject's been touched upon earlier in the game with Kanji.

I love Steins;Gate but they way handle Rukako with the whole "he's actually a boy" stuff comes across very homophobic/ transphobic, which makes me pretty comfortable reading it.
I presume you meant "uncomfortable"?

I do agree with listing Steins Gate's transphobia though. Every time the main character brought it up, it came across to me as if he was desperately trying to remind himself. It just made me want to tell the guy that it was ok to find her cute, and he should just stop resisting.
 

Catvoca

Banned
I presume you meant "uncomfortable"?

I do agree with listing Steins Gate's transphobia though. Every time the main character brought it up, it came across to me as if he was desperately trying to remind himself. It just made me want to tell the guy that it was ok to find her cute, and he should just stop resisting.

Yeah, sorry, I did mean uncomfortable!
 
This is both the writing and the delivery. Anytime Tracer from Overwatch opens her mouth I cringe. Nobody talks like that in England. Maybe 100 years ago you'd get a pass, but if you went around spouting that Mockney-turned-up-to-11 drivel in this day and age, you'd get a right slap for being pwoper nawty.

I can't believe the actress in actually from Yorkshire, and not someone born and raised in San Francisco who watched Mary Poppins more times than would be deemed healthy.
 

That Kojima article was a very good read. Also, that God of War shit was fucking disgusting. Why does he kill her? Why does she have her tits out? Fucking nonsense.

Pretty much any David Cage scene that involves women getting victimized that we also see naked at some point.

In a vacuum the individual scenes don't bother me... but after hearing the cut dialogue from Jodie's Bizarre Adventure and the revelation that he kept a scrap book of Ellen Page before he cast her I can't shake the feeling that he is kind of a creep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAzcVPfgp6Q

Don't know about Omikron, but every other David Cage game has pretty shoddy treatment of women, people of different races and people with mental health issues. Can't wait to see what Detroit has in store for us.
 

GokouD

Member
I was playing Pokemon Moon last night and a female character said "The flavor from the Rare Bone seems to fill my whole mouth..." I'm pretty sure I was told to grab my Rare Bone and pound it too, and when I did some 'stuff' spurted up onto the screen.
We were making soup apparently...
 

Kthulhu

Member
That Kojima article was a very good read. Also, that God of War shit was fucking disgusting. Why does he kill her? Why does she have her tits out? Fucking nonsense.



Don't know about Omikron, but every other David Cage game has pretty shoddy treatment of women, people of different races and people with mental health issues. Can't wait to see what Detroit has in store for us.

Omikron has possession cucking. You possess a dude and have sex with his wife as him.

I really hope Cage has learned from his past mistakes. He seems like he could genuinely produce something amazing, but there's always something that screws it all up.
 
Omikron has possession cucking. You possess a dude and have sex with his wife as him.

I really hope Cage has learned from his past mistakes. He seems like he could genuinely produce something amazing, but there's always something that screws it all up.

Oh. Oh wow.
 
I just saw footage of the Poseidon princess in GoW 3 and I'm starting to question how these GoW games ever got the critical praise and following they got.

Maybe I'm missing the context, but this video game dude that is fondly loved by many had a sequence where he just dragged around this half-naked sex slave like a abusive boyfriend for a couple a minutes and while she was literally begging for mercy, he doomed her to a painful and messy death by leaving her to get crushed by the weight of a massive crank all to just to get through a single gate.

There was also a trophy you unlocked at the end of this sequence called "I didn't do it... But I wish I did!"

What. The. Fuck.
 
Have you played Mafia 3 yet?

On San Andreas, I believe the game would seem weird if the dialogue didn't represent how some people actually talk and talk with each other. If anyone was uncomfortable that means it did it's job right. I remember my brother not liking the game really at first because of the language between characters. it didn't bother me.

Have not played Mafia 3 yet. On the wishlist. Has to be at least $30 for me to consider.

GTA:SA is a call back to Boyz n the Hood, which did not bother me because I was self-aware that its audience would be exclusive.

Everyone would play GTA, and I dreaded the projection.
 
the stuff in Persona 4 was just eye rolling and stupid. Like it was written in the 50's. It can be glossed over because that game is great but shouldn't be as it was awful. Except homophobia and gender related difficulties are still real life issues so....
 

klier

Member
Dumb action schlock with a shitbag fuckboy main character and a dissonance between the tone of the gameplay/action and the tone of the dialog and story that was so jarring that it shattered my immersion in the game utterly before the midway point in a way that it never recovered. It strikes me as a game for dummies. Nice art/tech, sure, but I literally hated the game.

I hate the game too. For this reason, and a couple more.

Just terrible. Naughty Dog sucks.
I am going to give TLOU Part 2 a try, and if I don't like that one either, I am never going to touch a game from them again.
 
the stuff in Persona 4 was just eye rolling and stupid. Like it was written in the 50's. It can be glossed over because that game is great but shouldn't be as it was awful. Except homophobia and gender related difficulties are still real life issues so....
The 50s? Really?
 

THEaaron

Member
That is surely not an easy matter at all.

How is the consensus about serious topics in games? Like rape in Ground Zeroes, sexual depiction in games like GoW or harassment at all?

Is it bad because it happens or is it bad because it is just poorly written?(for which we have enough examples of, yeah)
 
I have a pretty high tolerance for pretty much anything.

Except when it comes to relegating women to weak roles. I hate that shit more than anything.

*EDIT*

and i forgot about Persona 4's sickening treatment of gay people. Just no. Yosuke, no, its not funny.

Yukiko is just as bad, if not worse, than Yosuke when it comes to that.

Also, that game is totally fat shaming. It's pretty awful.
 

EGM1966

Member
Mainly stuff like:

NPC chatter in Batman when playing as Catwoman or in Gears when they regularly grunt "too ugly to live" - it really grates fast on me on a number of levels

Dumb stuff like Quiet in MGSV

Dumb tryhard stuff like Devil May Cry reboot
 

Lime

Member
That is surely not an easy matter at all.

How is the consensus about serious topics in games? Like rape in Ground Zeroes, sexual depiction in games like GoW or harassment at all?

Is it bad because it happens or is it bad because it is just poorly written?(for which we have enough examples of, yeah)

Because it's poorly treated as if game developers are elephants in a porcelain shop and that their knowledge/treatment of the topic grossly uses controversial topics for shock or shitty commentary.

Yukiko is just as bad, if not worse, than Yosuke when it comes to that.

Also, that game is totally fat shaming. It's pretty awful.

I don't understand what makes it such a favorite RPG of so many people.
 
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