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Some people still think there is "true gaming" and "fake gaming"

redcrayon

Member
Regardless of mobile vs console there is a difference between games that challenge the player vs games designed for super short attention spans and to never ever challenge the user who is looking to be simply entertained while waiting for other stuff. Mobile games, partially due to the nature of how we use the devices and their more limited control schemes in terms of accuracy and precision and lack of muscle memory/tactile feedback seem to be targeted to that user group more often than not.
There are plenty of mobile puzzle games that look simple on the surface yet get insanely difficult at the highest level of play, requiring an understanding of their mechanics on a similar level to console systems-heavy strategy/SRPG/puzzle/dungeon crawl games. The cutesy designs disguise this. Similarly, there are plenty of AAA console games that offer very little actual challenge at the standard difficulty level and can be completed through sheer brute force rather than an understanding of how to most effectively deal with obstacles.

I play console and mobile games and have run into plenty of mobile games that challenge me after the initial tutorials. My wife plays solely mobile games and, if a game isn't offering any challenge whatsoever, gets bored of them very quickly. The ones she's been playing for years still challenge her even after hundreds of hours of play, but often they need different skills to console games. I could no more play the puzzle games she's poured thousands of hours into at her skill level than she could play g-rank Monster Hunter alongside me. To each their own, the point at which our interest levels cross over is Mario Kart or Snipperclips and that's about it!

The idea that she isn't playing 'real' games is a bit like saying people who play a lot of chess or scrabble online aren't playing real games either. It's easy to dismiss people as casuals because their preferred games don't have guns or swords in them or need 15 buttons to play but they still require skills to play effectively even if they look a thousand times simpler.
 

Oersted

Member
There are far more apps released on the App Store every day than on Steam, something to the tune of 100 every day to 10 a day. And I'm pretty sure there are less good games total on the App Store than on Steam.

You can do the math from there.

Twillight is a trash book but still a book.

Suicide Squad is a trash movie but still a movie.

A trash mobile game is not a game.

I like that logic.
 

Eumi

Member
What.



What. These people are literally drinking coffee.

"Huh, nice McDonalds Big Mac you have there. I hope you don't consider yourself a Food Eater."
"Oh wow, nice digital watch. I hope you don't say you have the time when someone asks you."
 
Twillight is a trash book but still a book.

Suicide Squad is a trash movie but still a movie.

A trash mobile game is not a game.

I like that logic.

Is a Twilight fanfic a real book? Is Charlie Bit My Finger a real movie?

That's about where I'd put many "games" like Mobile Strike that are less interactive than Vegas slot machines.
 
I'm no fan of mobile as a platform but it is absolutely still gaming. Trying to divorce mobile from gaming seems to be the goal of the same idiots populating groups such as Gamergate.
 
I think the different markets that come under the blanket umbrella of 'gaming' are so disparate and distinct that it is actually highly disingenuous to use any broad statistics that lump them all together to draw any kind of conclusion on current trends in the industry.

And like it or not, as much money as mobile games make, and as accepted by wider society as they have been, they and the people who play them are so far removed from the dedicated enthusiast market found on PC and console as to be basically irrelevant to one another.

It's like comparing supermarket value meal sales to the health of the restaurant industry. They both involve people eating, and there is an obvious competition for people's money, but that's pretty much where the similarities end...
This guy gets it.
 

Budi

Member
To me it's not about women and men, both play mobile/facebook games as they do more traditional videogames. But I do see a difference. Skinner box design has been very apparent to many mobile/facebook games for a long time. Unfortunately though that has reached more traditional PC and console gaming too, see Overwatch lootboxes as an example. But still I'd say it's much more common in mobile/browser gaming. That being said, there's also mobile ports from games like Final Fantasy, Kotor and such. So the platforms have been getting closer together, for better and worse. And my hope is that mobile/browser gaming would work as a gateway for people, to install Steam, buy a console etc. I think Pokemon GO did quite well on that?

Compare Stardew Valley and Farmville. Can you honestly say the former isn't better than the latter? Doesn't Stardew Valley respect the player more? It's not trying to bait the player to constantly spend money.

Edit: Also as you see, it's not about AAA and production values either as you imply in your OP. It's about good games. And I do play Clash Royale and also played Farmville for a while when it started to be a thing. So it's not like I despise the platform so much I couldn't give it a go myself.
 
The wording is off and condescending, I agree, but mobile and console/PC games have different target audiences, so having a distinction is fine by me.
 

Sande

Member
Well, gaming as a term does cover an awful lot of ground. It's almost like if you had "videoing" that covers all movies, TV shows, everything on Youtube and so on.

I think the different markets that come under the blanket umbrella of 'gaming' are so disparate and distinct that it is actually highly disingenuous to use any broad statistics that lump them all together to draw any kind of conclusion on current trends in the industry.
Pretty much.
 
There are far more apps released on the App Store every day than on Steam, something to the tune of 100 every day versus 10 a day. And I'm pretty sure there are less good games total on the App Store than on Steam.

You can do the math from there.

I think that's an assumption, I don't know if that's necessarily true. And isn't the comparison here unfair to mobile devices, because we're comparing Steam (a reasonably closed platform), to the app store (a reasonably open platform). There are loads of PC games that come out every year that do not reach steam for whatever reason. Therefore aren't people's argument about quality on mobile devices, more an argument about the storefront quality on each platform?
 
These are just losers who want to act as gatekeepers and leave the cooties out. They can't accept that others are sharing their previously exclusionary hobby. Dismissing mobile games is just one of their tactics, especially gamergate.
 
I think that's an assumption, I don't know if that's necessarily true. And isn't the comparison here unfair to mobile devices, because we're comparing Steam (a reasonably closed platform), to the app store (a reasonably open platform). There are loads of PC games that come out every year that do not reach steam for whatever reason. Therefore aren't people's argument about quality on mobile devices, more an argument about the storefront quality on each platform?

Then don't make the comparison? I wasn't the one who compared the two.
 

Son Of D

Member
You know what we don't do? We generally don't mock people that read only certain books. We generally don't mock people that only watch simple movies.
No one here is ostracized or ridiculed because they watch superhero movies. No one here is shat upon because they read comic books. You won't find threads where people shame those that watch wrestling.

We have posts in off-topic insulting people who watch Adam Sandler movies. Or that one user who said they automatically think less of people who watch comic book movies. If NeoGAF was a movie enthusiast forum we'd be seeing more of that and the Off-Topic would have less (but still some) gaming insults.
 

royox

Member
Reading comics or Mangas is still not considered "real reading" so I'm not surprised the same happens with games.

I wouldn't call someone that the only game he plays is Candy Crush while he's at the subway a Gamer...the same way I wouldn't add MC.Donald's in a Gastronomic Route.
 
I think it's less about something being "real" vs "fake" and more a conflation of expectations as for a very large amount of time a lot of video game playing was done on dedicated or specialized hardware, and as such being a person that plays games and being an enthusiast of games often went hand in hand. Nowadays people can be playing games, but more as an incidental aspect of something that they'd have anyway and it's just a thing that's there and nothing more than an idle time waster. So, yeah, it's all games. They're just to very different ends.

It's like describing someone as as a person that reads, it conjures up a certain idea of what that would mean. But that could mean they read the backs of cereal boxes, signs, the sides of trucks.
 
Well I do think the terms "true gaming" and "fake gaming" are absurdly childish and ridiculous. That being said, I think there is a distinction to be made between people whose gaming time extends only to Candy crush or words with Friends, who never spend a penny on games, and people who actively buy dedicated hardware for the purpose of playing games.

Many people who only play mobile games dont even want what they're doing to be called "gaming" and would actively scoff at people who play console or PC games regularly. There is certainly a dichotomy and it goes both ways. So, for the purposes of demographic statistics and whatnot I'm not really sure they should all be lumped together.
 

Cipherr

Member
Its funny that this is focused on Mobile gaming now, when we literally had an ENTIRE GENERATION of this fuckery when the Wii went off like a firecracker with its waggle games and WiiFit boards and shit. Like 80% of GAF had a 4 year ragefit over "Non-Gaming" not being real games and stuff. Very few seemed to mind it, then that same mob came after something a good chunk of that very same 80% held dear.... smartphone gaming... And now its like the Immovable Object vs the Unstoppable Force.
KuGsj.gif
 

Chao

Member
"Huh, nice McDonalds Big Mac you have there. I hope you don't consider yourself a Food Eater."

I mean, it's still food. Don't think anyone in their right mind would eat McDonald's over anything else. There is a reason why it's literally called 'junk food'
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
Well I do think the terms "true gaming" and "fake gaming" are absurdly childish and ridiculous. That being said, I think there is a distinction to be made between people whose gaming time extends only to Candy crush or words with Friends, who never spend a penny on games, and people who actively buy dedicated hardware for the purpose of playing games.

Many people who only play mobile games dont even want what they're doing to be called "gaming" and would actively scoff at people who play console or PC games regularly. There is certainly a dichotomy and it goes both ways. So, for the purposes of demographic statistics and whatnot I'm not really sure they should all be lumped together.

Causal games is fine.

Not all films are 2001. Not all books are Lord Of The Rings. Just because Adam Sandler films are popular doesn't mean people are going to stop wanting to make something better, or people are going to stop wanting to see them.

Live and let live.
 
Its funny that this is focused on Mobile gaming now, when we literally had an ENTIRE GENERATION of this fuckery when the Wii went off like a firecracker with its waggle games and WiiFit boards and shit. Like 80% of GAF had a 4 year ragefit over "Non-Gaming" not being real games and stuff. Very few seemed to mind it, then that same mob came after something a good chunk of that very same 80% held dear.... smartphone gaming... And now its like the Immovable Object vs the Unstoppable Force.
KuGsj.gif

Oh man I remember that shit. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Did you know that in the 90ies in Italy you were not a real gamer if you didn't own a playstation?
Same thing with the PS2 in the eraly 2000s, by the way.
It's fascinating how some people think they can dictate what is a "real" game and what isn't.
 

MTC100

Banned
And it pisses me off. I just read some posts on a facebook page saying that 52% of gamers are women. These posts (that got a ton of like) told that mobile games are not real games.

But they are crap for the most part, I am glad to be no longer on facebook, getting invites to play those crappy games from my "friends" all the time.

Aside from the blatant sexism, I really can't understand how people can say there is two gaming style, and one is worse than the others, how are we still stuck with such backwards thoughts ?

I don't care if a woman, man, granny or gramps, kid or teenager plays those games, they still are crap, crafted to exploit people with their psychological tricks. This has nothing to do with gender at all. I work at a telephone service provider and see the bills of customers from time to time and know how much money people waste for mobile games(again this is not a "women issue", I'd even say males waste more money on that stuff) buying jewel-packages or whatever bullshit currency the games use.

I am convinced companies like King are the cancer of video games and should be eradicated for the good of mankind. -But that will never happen, those scumbags got too big too quickly and now live off of peoples hard earned cash by giving them a false sense of accomplishment, it's almost like a sect or cult...

What started with funny little flash games a decade or more ago is now a multi billion dollar industry.
 
I didn't compare them, I said there are loads of shit games on PC, and here's a place you can find loads of shit games on PC.

Not nearly to the same extent though. It'd be like saying most YouTube videos are bad and dumb, and then you retort by saying "Ah, but Hollywood makes bad movies too! Ergo, YouTube videos are real movies."
 

Mechazawa

Member
To play devils advocate there's a large difference in the complexity, skill required, level of engagement and overall quality between something like

Injustice Mobile

and

Injustice

I don't think you would consider someone who plays "pin the tail on the donkey" at the same level as a moderately skilled chess player. Both qualify as games but they are vastly different. One requiring a level of skill and critical thinking and the other requiring the player to just participate.

I find personally that the vast majority of mobile games require very little for someone to be good at them. They are built around engaging people enough to get them into the IAP loop. Games like Marvel's Future Fight for example something fairly dominant on the mobile platform will literally play itself for you.

Comparing the two is both absolutely acceptable because they exist within the same overarching genre and it's possible to draw a line and say X is one thing and Y is another.

We do it all the time across media. We don't treat fanfic with the same reverence as great literature and we don't consider john's home movies in the same realm as cinemas finest.

Are we going to sit here and pretend that AAA bubblegum gaming is serious skillz for serious gamerz.

The type of people that draw arbitrary lines in the sand for what constitutes "real games" also lump in all these Press A to Awesome Cinematic action games with the Injustices of the world.
 

RPGam3r

Member
My mom and dad play mobile games. I don't consider them gamers. They don't care about games, they just need something to waste a bit of time on from time to time bc they're waiting in line for a burrito for instance.

The level of commitment is completely different bc 1) what they play is free 2) they wouldn't make time to play given the choice.

However, if they were asked on a survey they would both say they play games.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
My mom and dad play mobile games. I don't consider them gamers. They don't care about games, they just need something to waste a bit of time on from time to time bc they're waiting in line for a burrito for instance.

The level of commitment is completely different bc 1) what they play is free 2) they wouldn't make time to play given the choice.

However, if they were asked on a survey they would both say they play games.

Snobbery is deeply unattractive in any form.
 
I don't have any issue with mobile games per se, but I'm quite sick of the huge bubble of free to play cash grab gacha games with little to no gameplay, particularly when IPs I like seem to have transitioned to that model. Hasbro for example has taken to commisioning mobile Transformers games like a machinegun, each shittier and greedier than the last, then shutting them down two years later when fans grow sick of patches introducing ridiculous power seep that makes it impossible to keep playing without spending tons of money.

Just in the last few years:

- Transformers Legends: Released on December 13, 2012. Shut down on October 6, 2015.
- Transformers Rising: Release date August 3rd, 2014. Shut down on December 30, 2016.
- Transformers: Age of Extinction: Released September 2014. Shut down on September 2015.
- Transformers: Battle Tactics: Release date January 30, 2015. Shut down on May 12, 2016 (this one hurt the most, it had potential to be a pretty competent and unique game on its own, before they made the grind and power seep ridiculous).
- Transformers: Earth Wars: Released June 2, 2016.
- Transformers: Forged to Fight: Released on April 5 2017.

No matter your stance on mobile games, there's something that feels fundamentally wrong with this business model. Even if you were to defend the games themselves (a dubious proposition), them being online only and having shut down means zero preservation.

For context, Fall of Cybertron was released in 2012, meaning the only non-mobile games released in this same period are Rise of the Dark Spark (a quick cash grab reusing assets from previous games that was universally panned) and Devastation (the only saving grace in the past five years).

In the five years prior to this period, we got the amazing War for Cybertron and Fall of Cybertron, plus the pretty decent movie games (it's funny how even Michael Bay movies are no longer getting console games). It's hard to deny that low-quality mobile games has truly displaced more conventional games in at least this case.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I mean, it's not like garbage games didn't exist prior to mobile video games. And hell, you could argue most of the mobile video games were actually descendants from popular pc and arcade games particularly the 3x3 match games.

I do wonder if those people consider ET a more "video game" than a mobile port of Bejeweled?
 

Kill3r7

Member
My mom and dad play mobile games. I don't consider them gamers. They don't care about games, they just need something to waste a bit of time on from time to time bc they're waiting in line for a burrito for instance.

The level of commitment is completely different bc 1) what they play is free 2) they wouldn't make time to play given the choice.

However, if they were asked on a survey they would both say they play games.

Do your mom and dad watch reality TV, sports and CBS?

If asked on a survey if they watch TV and for how many hours, should the results still be counted vs someone who only watches HBO, AMC and wherever else the latest and greatest TV shows are found?
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
These attitudes are why gamers can be so entitled, and surprise surprise why some can be so deeply unpleasant.
 

jts

...hate me...
Mobile gaming is gaming, but the lack of physical controls is extremely taxing and limiting to the depth and range of experiences it can offer - i.e., nowhere near console and PC gaming. So that creates a very hard ceiling for how much it can grow, and that's why console and PC gaming is still a multimillion dollar business and the main focus of gaming in an age where everyone already has a smartphone.

As a secondary factor - battery limitations also contribute as an issue. I have a pretty good phone but I don't want to waste its battery with gaming. I actually need my phone for calling, texting, browsing, facebook/instagram/twitter, email. Communicating > gaming. I pretty much stopped caring about phone games maybe 4-5 years ago (playing only the occasional viral hit ever since).
 

Oersted

Member
My mom and dad play mobile games. I don't consider them gamers. They don't care about games, they just need something to waste a bit of time on from time to time bc they're waiting in line for a burrito for instance.

The level of commitment is completely different bc 1) what they play is free 2) they wouldn't make time to play given the choice.

However, if they were asked on a survey they would both say they play games.

If you would gift them a PS Vita and they would only play F2P games on it, would you consider that fake gaming?
 

Sblargh

Banned
Well I do think the terms "true gaming" and "fake gaming" are absurdly childish and ridiculous. That being said, I think there is a distinction to be made between people whose gaming time extends only to Candy crush or words with Friends, who never spend a penny on games, and people who actively buy dedicated hardware for the purpose of playing games.

Many people who only play mobile games dont even want what they're doing to be called "gaming" and would actively scoff at people who play console or PC games regularly. There is certainly a dichotomy and it goes both ways. So, for the purposes of demographic statistics and whatnot I'm not really sure they should all be lumped together.

I don't know brah, there are people who only play bethesda games, and people who only play blizzard games and people who only play the sims. Almost literally, barring some exception. Their gaming life is this one franchise or company.

People who only play yearly sports or whatever is the cod-like shooter of the moment. People who only play mobas, anyway, there are lots of examples that attract people who are not into gaming in general, but are deeply devoted to one area.

There is a 70 year old dude who has thousands of hours into Titan Quest for some reason. True story (or so I choose to believe this one weird steam review).
-
Gaming can have this neverding characteristic that can pull people into one product, it is not the same as watching the same movie over and over. Even something as linear as megaman spawn speedrunning communities of people who devote long hours into perfection of this one game.

This to say, this phenomena of a one-game-gamer is probably larger than we expect. And in no way limited to mobile gaming.
 

Iorv3th

Member
My mom and dad play mobile games. I don't consider them gamers. They don't care about games, they just need something to waste a bit of time on from time to time bc they're waiting in line for a burrito for instance.

The level of commitment is completely different bc 1) what they play is free 2) they wouldn't make time to play given the choice.

However, if they were asked on a survey they would both say they play games.

Yep.

I also wonder how someone playing only something like say Sudoku or a crossword puzzle on mobile counts. As those are now technically video games were in the past they were not.
 

giapel

Member
Real gaming: "I make time to play a game"
Fake gaming: "I play a game when I've got nothing better to do"

My definition is better than yours and doesn't discriminate on platform or genre
 

orava

Member
First thing that comes into mind with the term "fake games" are those horrible and abusive whale hunting mobile turds that rely on expensive in app purchases and people who have tendencies to get easily addicted to things. Those are no games even if they vaguely look like one. The companies making these are basically scammers.
 

Oersted

Member
Real gaming: "I make time to play a game"
Fake gaming: "I play a game when I've got nothing better to do"

My definition is better than yours and doesn't discriminate on platform or genre

So when you play Breath of the Wild on the train its fake gaming but at home its real?
 
It doesn't matter.

Fact is, a lot of the people playing those games don't know or care about the core gamers pretending to be gatekeepers--just like with the Wii. Nor is any bank or business going to be like "I'm sorry, sir, but we don't accept money made on the App Store or Google Play here. We are a PC and Console estabilishment." And with mobile making just as much money as PC or console markets, developers are going to pursue it no matter how much people whine on GAF or Youtube or anywhere else.

And that's ultimately the issue. People are just mad that the industry doesn't have to cater to them exclusively anymore. The distinction between "real" and "fake" may be a comforting security blanket, but it's not going to change reality.
 

RPGam3r

Member
If you would gift them a PS Vita and they would only play F2P games on it, would you consider that fake gaming?

They wouldn't want one, bc I've made this mistake with 3DS and I bought the games so to them they were free. Those things never got played bc they weren't convenient and in their picket at all times when they were out and about.

Also I never said anything about "fake". I said I don't consider them gamers.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
I'm not being a snob. They're not gamers. Not everyone who takes a selfie is a photographer. Etc.

Technically they are, whether they are any good or not is down to the consumer. Which is all you are as well.

You don't get to define the medium, just how much you like examples of it.

And that selfie-obsessed girl might end up being a very good photographer. So best you just keep your mouth shut and leave her alone.
 
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