Princess Carl
Member
I didn't realize that being a cop made you able to do whatever you felt like to citizens.
Who needs a constitution and probable cause? Those things only impede my ability to do how I please.
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Police at UC Davis pepper spray faces/mouths of peaceful student protesters
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I didn't realize that being a cop made you able to do whatever you felt like to citizens.
Who needs a constitution and probable cause? Those things only impede my ability to do how I please.
Well yes. At some point you realize you don't have to fight every battle to the fullest and make every point that you can make. You have to be practical. Especially when you are fighting first world oppression and not in some dictatorship.
Will my message be any worse when I move 3 feet? Or should I get a face of pepper spray and be put in jail.
Here in the Netherlands police are free to ask your ID. Sure you can bitch and moan and saying it is against your civil rights, but it is the law. So you can either go with the flow and be done with it in 30 seconds. Or get your ass taken to the police station where you can sit 6 hours just to make a point. A point nobody will care about.
Did you not see the points in those videos where protesters yanked their hands away when the police grabbed for them? Why are you so confident that it wouldn't have turned violent?
And you're not answering why you think the cop should be strung up if he was only operating in the manner he was trained?
They're not mindless thugs, but when they're giving clear directives and the training to see those directives out, why is the heat on them for doing their jobs?
And why should they live with it? They're there to uphold the law and those students refusing to move blatantly spit in the face of that.
EDIT: In my experience most cops don't care what you're protesting about, just as long as you don't do anything to make their jobs any more difficult. And lot of younger protesters lose site of the goal of their protest (raising awareness and to spur action) when they let it become about clashing with the police.
This reminds me of when I was protesting in Pittsburgh during the G20 Summit. I was standing in front of a building with a group of friends and a cop came over and asked us to move because we were blocking the entrance. My one friend and I moved (conveniently to where most of the protesters were anyway), while my other friend decided that that would be the perfect time to stand up to the police. Needless to say, he was arrested. He thinks he's a hero for it. In reality, he's an idiot.
Would the message of those students protesting tuition hikes been any less effective if they weren't doing it on a private sidewalk? Or was the fact that they were doing it on private property and clashing with the police the only reason anyone cares right now anyway?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It seems like a lot of people care about this.
A police officer is trained to use discretion in situations just as this. This kind of situation is the worst time to just follow your training.
I am kind of going with the principle that what the police was doing is legal. If it isn't there is plenty of ground for suing them... case won... points made... legal precedent... only winners...
You're still going on about this? Really? In what fucking world does yanking your hand away from somebody count as a violent act, or legitimize a violent response? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here!
I say this without excusing any of the behavior by the police, but how can you allow civil disobedience?
The moment it is allowed, isn't it no longer civil disobedience? Isn't the entire point of civil disobedience to bring attention to the ridiculousness of it being illegal? Shouldn't the very goal of people being civilly disobedient to draw this kind of reaction from the police? Seeing black men and women being arrested for sitting at a counter, or being sprayed with fire hoses, or having dogs unleashed upon them, that is what affected the change is it not? If the same situation occurred, and the black men and women sitting in the diner had not been accosted by the police/public, and they had just been ignored, would any systemic changes have taken place? Sure, you have a single diner that is "allowing" black people to sit at the counters, but they probably wouldn't be served, and even if they were, it is still only one diner. The change happens when the public is confronted with the problematic system.
We should all be disgusted by the actions of the police, and that is what should follow civil disobedience. It is the next step. But to plea for civil disobedience to be allowed? That seems stupid. It neuters the entire point of it, does it not?
I have thought for a while that the Occupy movement was too scattershot and unorganized to affect any real change, they didn't seem to have any legislative goals in mind, or specific things they want changing. But we do seem to have a problem in this country with our first amendment rights and how the police treat those that are exercising those rights. And so now it seems like they have something very specific that they are fighting, overbearing police that attempt to limit our rights to free speech and assembly.
But beyond that? I don't know what the Occupy movement hopes to do without some ideologue leader honing the movement and actually going after real, legislative change.
The moment it is allowed, isn't it no longer civil disobedience? Isn't the entire point of civil disobedience to bring attention to the ridiculousness of it being illegal? Shouldn't the very goal of people being civilly disobedient to draw this kind of reaction from the police? Seeing black men and women being arrested for sitting at a counter, or being sprayed with fire hoses, or having dogs unleashed upon them, that is what affected the change is it not? If the same situation occurred, and the black men and women sitting in the diner had not been accosted by the police/public, and they had just been ignored, would any systemic changes have taken place? Sure, you have a single diner that is "allowing" black people to sit at the counters, but they probably wouldn't be served, and even if they were, it is still only one diner. The change happens when the public is confronted with the problematic system.
We should all be disgusted by the actions of the police, and that is what should follow civil disobedience. It is the next step. But to plea for civil disobedience to be allowed? That seems stupid. It neuters the entire point of it, does it not?
I have thought for a while that the Occupy movement was too scattershot and unorganized to affect any real change, they didn't seem to have any legislative goals in mind, or specific things they want changing. But we do seem to have a problem in this country with our first amendment rights and how the police treat those that are exercising those rights. And so now it seems like they have something very specific that they are fighting, overbearing police that attempt to limit our rights to free speech and assembly.
But beyond that? I don't know what the Occupy movement hopes to do without some ideologue leader honing the movement and actually going after real, legislative change.
Don't get too crazy, we might have to pepper-spray you to stop future-violence.
Princess Carl
Member
This after the fact mentality is what has caused the housing bubble, bailouts, the entire occupy protest and its being used now to justify initial violence from peace officers?
What a wonderful world we live in.
This is why college educated officers needs to be a requirement from the get go.
Terrible use of discretion over and over again doesn't seem to be setting off any alarms. It's very scary.
I don't think anyone was doing that...
But I do agree with you in regards to this being a much larger issue than OWS... one that seems to be rooted deep within this country. I feel it getting worse and worse every month and I really wouldn't be surprised if the whole situation deteriorates quickly.
Open Letter from the last page said:
This guy is. I wrote my post in a semi-response to that letter, but obviously didn't make that clear.
I think people don't like seeing other people get hurt is all.
Best case scenario, we affect change without people getting pepper-sprayed in the throat.
This is ultimately the fault that those in charge keep making. The overabundance of protest and America's apathy are weapons enough to fight the OWS movement into public boredom, but mayors and admins keep sending in police to escalate the issue.
At some point, I wonder if police will begin to refuse being the enforcers. It can cost an officer reputation and puts them in a spot to make mistakes that lead to disciplinary actions and bad PR. They aren't taking these risks to stop murderers or prevent dangerous crimes, but to annoy some protesters. It's not really worth the risk versus reward for the police.
Well, in his context, he's alluding to the fact that throughout history, higher education has been a large platform for allowing protests. And he definitely is using "protesting" and "civil disobedience" interchangeably.
In this world it does, buddy. In the United States if you yank your arm away from a police officer who is trying to restrain you it can be considered resistance, and you have just given the officer excuse to use overwhelming force to restrain you. You could even be charged with resisting arrest (or even obstruction of justice in certain contexts). Doesn't mean that they always will. But at that point they legally can.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Why should she resign, she didn't do anything wrong.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
The letter essentially begs for an area to break to the law like some 19th century Opium War concession. They also try and say they the police can't be called in if they are breaking the law. Its ridiculous.
statham
Member
if its went to trial 99.999 percent it would get dropped. if someone grabs my hand I will instantly pull back, its in my instinct nature. and how many of these kids got arrested? they pretty much sprayed them and left. they judge, jury and penalty in about 60 seconds.
Yeah. I don't think the call for resignation stands so much on legality as on principles of what's good for the university and its students. Distilled, the argumen is that she escalated the situation needlessly and endangered the students using the police who in turn handled the situation pretty ineptly.
I'd personally got even further agreeing with what some have said here about universities as places that are natural places for demonstration/dissent. Uni students need a bit rebelliousness and dissent instead of swallowing everything down meekly. On long term, clubbing down your loud students is not gonna make the nation more advanced. No need to fear the 'barbarians at the gates' if you're hunkering down and chipping the foundation yourself.
What these young people will learn from this is a hatred of corps and government, though, which might lead to something later on. Maybe the people need to take a page from the book of those infamous Survivalists.
I'd personally got even further agreeing with what some have said here about universities as places that are natural places for demonstration/dissent. Uni students need a bit rebelliousness and dissent instead of swallowing everything down meekly. On long term, clubbing down your loud students is not gonna make the nation more advanced. No need to fear the 'barbarians at the gates' if you're hunkering down and chipping the foundation yourself.
What these young people will learn from this is a hatred of corps and government, though, which might lead to something later on. Maybe the people need to take a page from the book of those infamous Survivalists.
statham
Member
what if they was out of pepper-spray, and they was breaking the law and refusing arrest, I had to get them out but had no pepper spray, could I shoot them in the leg to make them move? I fear for your answer for sitting on the sidewalk, pulling a arm back.
police state you want. wiki it.
She called in the cops when she had no reason to. She specifically ALLOWED the protesters to camp out the night before, making them think that they had her permission to be there.
Not to mention she did jack shit to stop the tear gassing.
Parents expect their students to be safe at a university. She has supreme power and she did nothing to ensure their safety. This incident is going to do wonders for their enrollment, that's for sure. *sarcasm*
Don't mind Manos. All you have to do is spend 5 seconds in the OWS thread to see what his motive is.
videogamer
Banned
Who is actually saying this?
no one but that will not stop someone from being intentionally dense.
I was being a bit hyperbolic, I'll admit. Nobody actually said those exact words, obviously. But the general atmosphere [initially] in this thread and elsewhere was that it was appropriate to place majority blame on the cops. Some people in this thread were even calling for the cops to be put on criminal trial.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Once again we see an example of an Occupy supporter who will claim to want discussion, but will refuse to actually debeate someone with an opposing viewpoint.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Of course people put the blame on the cops for pepper spraying people when the cops pepper sprayed people.
And is it the cops' fault for being trained to use pepper spray in those incidents?
Devolution
Member
They weren't. Those kids weren't a threat. I'm sure the thread will keep going in circles anyway.
Cops are allowed to use pepper spray as a compliance tool, meaning that you don't have to be coming at them with a machete before they're allowed to use it.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
They refused to vacate and they then took steps to fortify their positions. They really have no one to blame but themselves.
But vacate why? Just because you are told to by an officer?
Because you're on private property.
state-of-the-art
Member
We should start protesting fat cops. If they want to pepper spray protesters, at least make them chase them.
Firstly, I don't have any evidence that the cops were trained to use pepper spray in these types of situations, and you certainly haven't provided any. Secondly, the cops are people, not mindless automatons. Even if they were trained to use pepper spray to deter people who are resisting arrest, they still have the ability to think "Hey, these are college kids, sitting down in a sidewalk, they are easily bypassed by walking on the grass, and while they are resisting my attempts to forcibly move them, they are not doing so violently. I think using pepper spray here would be a excessive."
Hydranockz
Member
Which, as students, you pay to be on.
But aren't granted ownership to.
And that would be a perfectly logical line of thinking if it were written in stone that the use of pepper spray is excessive. The fact that's it not means that your reasoning might not necessarily be anymore sound than the cops who were in the situation and decided that the pepper spray was the proper course of action.
It's called a measured response. On a 1 to 10 scale the act of sitting down as a human chain to block a sidewalk on a college campus is about a 2 or a 3. The level of response was a 7 or an 8. A didsproportionate and arguably malicious act (based on reports of the cop said 'Don't worry, I'm going to spray these kids down). Which brings me to my next point - what was that cop's next level of escalation? Bullets? By jumping straight to "hose them down with OC" he bypassed a lot of steps in the chain, which is pretty scary when you think about it. And that goes back to the article quoted earlier, which hypothesized that the use of that kind of force against those kids was meant to frighten and deter people from exercising their own rights and protesting, too.
kame-sennin
Member
Pepper spray shouldn't be used to gain compliance. Whether it's standard practice or not, it's an overreach of police power and it needs to be curtailed.
How would you feel about it if it was your kid who got pepper sprayed? You send them off to school to get an education and expand their mind. You think they're going to be safe. And one day, when they're just sitting on campus grounds - grounds that they have access too every day - they are brutalized because the Chancellor of the school, a woman who is supposed to have the safety of your child in mind, decided she objected to their demonstration. You can go on and on about regulation, but these are real human beings - children - we're talking about here.
"When students covered their eyes with their clothing, police forced open their mouths and pepper-​sprayed down their throats. Several of these students were hospitalized. Others are seriously injured. One of them, forty-​five minutes after being pepper-​sprayed down his throat, was still coughing up blood."
http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.co...er-spraying-of-students/news/2011/11/19/30450
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Because they were an unlawful assembly.
Yes, it should. Its far better than batons and leaves far fewer injuries past short term compared to a baton or rubber bulletsl Besides even if something else was used you would say the same exact thing you are saying now.
That's hardly a big deal. Would a baton have been better? Perhaps next time though they won't break the law.
But that's the thing, it's not an overreach of police power. If it were, countless cans of the stuff wouldn't be allowed to be on the budget. But it is. Cops aren't smuggling the stuff in.
And this is my point. People can be against the use of pepper spray all they want, but too many people are channel that into their general disdain for the police. The police were doing as they were trained to do. Go higher if you want to complain.
This incident should not be categorized as an example of overreach of police power or brutality when they are doing what they were trained to do. This incident, if anything, should be categorized as an example of why police shouldn't be authorized to use pepper spray.
People need to stop making it about the individual police and start making about the people who make the policies that they work by.
If it was because he was breaking the law and got sprayed because he wanted to use a legitimate movement as an excuse to clash with the police, I'd tell my kid he was an idiot, and that he got it from his mother.
Hydranockz
Member
No they weren't. They had been given permission the night before.
that's not what happened in the video
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Who isn't doing that?
You're making blanket assumptions about the rest of us because you're upset that you think we're making blanket statements about the police.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Which was later revoked.
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