Support NeoGAF

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

This explains your support for the pepper spraying, but does not make it obvious that you shouldn't have the right to protest in that way on campus. As in, 'they broke the law so the cops had to react, but that law is not morally right in the first place'.

Except that what they did was illegal, you don't have a right to break the law. That is why they shouldn't have a right to do that on campus, you don't have a right to break the law.

 

[statham]

.

 

[statham]

Except that what they did was illegal, you don't have a right to break the law. That is why they shouldn't have a right to do that on campus, you don't have a right to break the law.

your an idiot, but you know it. and love it. so lets trying ignoring.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

good going, davis students looking at 81% college hikes are hippies. your an asshole.

How much will they have to pay? Also why is it fine to demand higher taxes for social services, but bitch about tuition hikes. To me it comes off as we want more of this, but don't dare charge us more.

your an idiot, but you know it. and love it. so lets trying ignoring.

Brilliant response. More of the OWS Answer Dodge.

 

[bob page]

Here's a note from the minister who walked the UC Davis Chancellor to her car during the silent protest:

https://www.facebook.com/notes/kris...ehi-out-of-surge-ii-tonight/10150385444542928

I returned to the building and walked with the Chancellor down the human walkway to her car. Students remained silent and seated the entire way.

What was clear to me was that once again, the students’ willingness to show restraint kept us from spiraling into a cycle of violence upon violence. There was no credible threat to the Chancellor, only a perceived one. The situation was not hostile. And what was also clear to me is that whether they admit it or not, the administrators that were inside the building are afraid. And exhausted. And human. And the suffering that has been inflicted is real. The pain present as the three of us watched the video of students being pepper sprayed was palpable. A society is only truly free when all persons take responsibility for their actions; it is only upon taking responsibility that healing can come.

 

[harriet the spy]

Except that what they did was illegal, you don't have a right to break the law. That is why they shouldn't have a right to do that on campus, you don't have a right to break the law.

I must not be speaking clearly, or you're deliberately being obtuse to try to tire me out of getting something interesting out of this . I am just saying that I think that the question of whether it's legal or not does is not conducive to meaningful discussion - it's a binary answer which is not entirely/obviously correlated to the morality of it.
The more interesting discussion - and imo the point of the original poster you 'dodged' - is whether that law 'should be here' in the first place, or if it should have been phrased in such a way it does not prevent this kind of assembly some people consider harmless.

Yes, i get it. It's illegal. And because it's illegal, they got sprayed, and no one should complain about it. Let's move on. Should it be illegal in the first place? Do you care (I am assuming you do)? I am pretty sure you don't necessarily want to follow whatever law gets thrown at you.

 

[X26]

so apparently they don't have fitness or intelligence requirements in law enforcement

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I must not be speaking clearly, or you're deliberately being obtuse to try to tire me out of getting something interesting out of this . I am just saying that I think that the question of whether it's legal or not does is not conducive to meaningful discussion - it's a binary answer which is not entirely/obviously correlated to the morality of it.
The more interesting discussion - and imo the point of the original poster you 'dodged' - is whether that law 'should be here' in the first place, or if it should have been phrased in such a way it does not prevent this kind of assembly some people consider harmless.

Answered that saying yes the law should be in place. I said college shouldn't be a freebie or promote such behavior.

 

[bob page]

Answered that saying yes the law should be in place. I said college shouldn't be a freebie or promote such behavior.

Just wondering: how old are you?

 

[Dead Man]

How about a little context next time? I looked at the picture and thought that the students were already under arrest and the police guy was pepper spraying them regardless. After watching the video and realizing the students are sitting there in protest and not moving, it doesn't have the same impact on me.

How is that better?

 

[stolin]

George Carlin - Police Brutality

"...they ought to have 2 new requirement for being on the police.. Intelligence & Decency.... it certainly hasn't been tried yet.."

 

[harriet the spy]

Answered that saying yes the law should be in place. I said college shouldn't be a freebie or promote such behavior.

I haven't seen this anywhere, so you must have posted it earlier in the thread (and at least not in answering kame-sennin). I still don't see why it should be illegal to temporarily sit on a sidewalk and not actually block access to anything. Who are they bothering?
And afaik, they didn't ask for college to be free, they were protesting a tuition increase. It's really not the same thing.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

your an idiot

So this happened.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Just wondering: how old are you?

28

I haven't seen this anywhere, so you must have posted it earlier in the thread (and at least not in answering kame-sennin). I still don't see why it should be illegal to temporarily sit on a sidewalk and not actually block access to anything. Who are they bothering?
And afaik, they didn't ask for college to be free, they were protesting a tuition increase. It's really not the same thing.

I meant free to get away with such behavior not cost.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

I haven't seen this anywhere, so you must have posted it earlier in the thread (and at least not in answering kame-sennin). I still don't see why it should be illegal to temporarily sit on a sidewalk and not actually block access to anything. Who are they bothering?
And afaik, they didn't ask for college to be free, they were protesting a tuition increase. It's really not the same thing.

Silly little details like that get in the way of his projections.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Apparently the school DIDNT approve of the pepper spraying, so i'm not sure why people keep defending the police.

The University of California at Davis has placed two police officers on administrative leave after video of them pepper-spraying non-violent protesters at point-blank range sparked outrage at school officials.

 

[Suikoguy]

I think Manos is the perfect case of, "it's not happening to me, so why do I give a shit that some kids were peppersprayed for blocking a sidewalk. Fucking teenagers in college with their "protests".

They should bow down to the police, regardless of what they were doing, the police are never wrong. It's so damn obvious!

Of course it's so easy to say such stuff from the comfort of an office chair and a computer. We would never find Manos out there protesting, too much effort.

Edit:

Oh, and the police were also right in Lying about what happens too!
They are the police, they are never wrong, and what they said is what happened, they are better then humans!

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/igenerati...crumbles-in-the-face-of-too-many-videos/13347

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I think Manos is the perfect case of, "it's not happening to me, so why do I give a shit that some kids were peppersprayed for blocking a sidewalk. Fucking teenagers in college with their "protests".

They should bow down to the police, regardless of what they were doing, the police are never wrong. It's so damn obvious!

Of course it's so easy to say such stuff from the comfort of an office chair and a computer. We would never find Manos out there protesting, too much effort.

Ah I love this you're either with us or against us mentality you and other Occupy fans seem to have.

Apparently the school DIDNT approve of the pepper spraying, so i'm not sure why people keep defending the police.

Your quote mentions nothing about what you said.

Silly little details like that get in the way of his projections.

Umm he actually misinterpreted one of my comments.

 

[Divvy]

Apparently the school DIDNT approve of the pepper spraying, so i'm not sure why people keep defending the police.

How does a university put police officers on administrative leave. Does the university have control over the police? I am not sure how this works over there.

 

[bob page]

Apparently the school DIDNT approve of the pepper spraying, so i'm not sure why people keep defending the police.

Yeah, not the mention the President of all 10 UC campuses completely condemned the incident.

How does a university put police officers on administrative leave. Does the university have control over the police? I am not sure how this works over there.

The California Police Department put them on leave because they're investigating their excessive use of force.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

How does a university put police officers on administrative leave. Does the university have control over the police? I am not sure how this works over there.

Varies by state like I said in NY they are considered agents of the state.

 

[Suikoguy]

Ah I love this you're either with us or against us mentality you and other Occupy fans seem to have.

Are you actually trying to convince us you are not 100% against the OWS Movement?

Just wow.

Once again, it's perfectly ok in your opinion to lie about what happened to make the protestors appear like they were in the wrong right? Like this?

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/11/19/4066159/10-occupy-protesters-arrested.html

“They were cutting the officers off from their support. It’s a very volatile situation.”

Never happened, She (Annette Spicuzza) should lose her job over this, you don't comment on this unless you know all the details. Or, she was just lying. Either way, she needs to be fired.

Edit 2:

Next up, Fire Chief Spicuzza who ALSO lied about the situation:

Chief Spicuzza told reporters on Thursday that her officers had been concerned for their safety when they began spraying.

Yep, more lies. This entire police department needs a reality check.

 

[royalan]

You should be ashamed of making such a ridiculously shitty analogy / straw man. It should really make anyone with a functioning brain automatically avoid to have any meaningful discussion with you.

And I'm looking, but I don't see a point here at all...

 

[harriet the spy]

And I'm looking, but I don't see a point here at all...

There is no point related to the topic. It's a point about the quality of your argument and your analogy.

If I wrote that anyone thinking that anyone who wants to limit protesting in any fashion is a nazi worse than hitler, could you possibly offer an interesting counterpoint? No, because my argument would suck balls, and that the only thing you could possibly do is tell me how bad my point was.

That's what happened here.

Your analogy just sucks so fucking much that as much as i disagree with Manos, I'd rather argue with him for a lifetime than spend any second talking with you. I harbor no doubt you don't care for what I think, and even less for what I think of your writing, but here goes. I am not interesting in anything else you write. please feel free to "umad" / "haters gonna hate" me.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Are you actually trying to convince us you are not 100% against the OWS Movement?

Just wow.

Once again, it's perfectly ok in your opinion to lie about what happened to make the protestors appear like they were in the wrong right? Like this?
.

Who lied? I see quotes you posted, but nothing indicates they lied.

 

[N Coward Parody]

This incident has certainly unearthed some very strange and unsettling points of view 'round here...

 

[Psychotext]

Who lied? I see quotes you posted, but nothing indicates they lied.

Have you actually watched the video? They clearly weren't cut off from anything, and they clearly weren't concerned for their safety (unless when concerned for their safety police are known to showboat).

 

[hteng]

weren't the police there to monitor in case something breaks out? in this case it just seemed like they (the cops) were there looking for trouble.

 

[Emitan]

This incident has certainly unearthed some very strange and unsettling points of view 'round here...

Echoing "it's the law! it's illegal" is hardly a point of view, but I agree.

 

[royalan]

There is no point related to the topic. It's a point about the quality of your argument and your analogy.

If I wrote that anyone thinking that anyone who wants to limit protesting in any fashion is a nazi worse than hitler, could you possibly offer an interesting counterpoint? No, because my argument would suck balls, and that the only thing you could possibly do is tell me how bad my point was.

That's what happened here.

Your analogy just sucks so fucking much that as much as i disagree with Manos, I'd rather argue with him for a lifetime than spend any second talking with you. I harbor no doubt you don't care for what I think, and even less for what I think of your writing, but here goes. I am not interesting in anything else you write. please feel free to "umad" / "haters gonna hate" me.

Yes, that argument would suck balls, and it has absolutely nothing to do with my flippant Penn State comment (which was really more of a dig at the campus that has had 6 riots in the past five years than something I actually needed to prop up my argument).

That one sentence has very little to do with the paragraphs I've written in this thread, but hey - if you wanna be sensitive...

 

[Plumbob]

http://studentactivism.net/2011/11/...-know-about-fridays-uc-davis-police-violence/

Not sure if posted, but definitely worth reading:

1. The protest at which UC Davis police officers used pepper spray and batons against unresisting demonstrators was an entirely nonviolent one.

None of the arrests at UC Davis in the current wave of activism have been for violent offenses. Indeed, as the New York Times reported this morning, the university’s administration has “reported no instances of violence by any protesters.” Not one.

2. The unauthorized tent encampment was dismantled before the pepper spraying began.

Students had set up tents on campus on Thursday, and the administration had allowed them to stay up overnight. When campus police ordered students to take the tents down on Friday afternoon, however, most complied. The remainder of the tents were quickly removed by police without incident before the pepper spray incident.

3. Students did not restrict the movement of police at any time during the demonstration.

After police made a handful of arrests in the course of taking down the students’ tents, some of the remaining demonstrators formed a wide seated circle around the officers and arrestees.

UC Davis police chief Annette Spicuzza has claimed that officers were unable to leave that circle: “There was no way out,” she told the Sacramento Bee. “They were cutting the officers off from their support. It’s a very volatile situation.” But multiple videos clearly show that the seated students made no effort to impede the officers’ movement. Indeed, Lt. Pike, who initiated the pepper spraying of the group, was inside the circle moments earlier. To position himself to spray, he simply stepped over the line.

4. Lt. Pike was not in fear for his safety when he sprayed the students.

Chief Spicuzza told reporters on Thursday that her officers had been concerned for their safety when they began spraying. But again, multiple videos show this claim to be groundless.

The most widely distributed video of the incident (viewed, as I write this, by nearly 700,000 people on YouTube) begins just moments before Lt. Pike begain spraying, but another video, which starts a few minutes earlier, shows Pike chatting amiably with one activist, even patting him casually on the back.

The pat on the back occurs just two minutes and nineteen seconds before Pike pepper sprayed the student he had just been chatting with and all of his friends.

5. University of California Police are not authorized to use pepper spray except in circumstances in which it is necessary to prevent physical injury to themselves or others.

From the University of California’s Universitywide Police Policies and Administrative Procedures: “Chemical agents are weapons used to minimize the potential for injury to officers, offenders, or other persons. They should only be used in situations where such force reasonably appears justified and necessary.”

6. UC police are not authorized to use physical force except to control violent offenders or keep suspects from escaping.

Another quote from the UC’s policing policy: “Arrestees and suspects shall be treated in a humane manner … they shall not be subject to physical force except as required to subdue violence or ensure detention. No officer shall strike an arrestee or suspect except in self-defense, to prevent an escape, or to prevent injury to another person.”

7. The UC Davis Police made no effort to remove the student demonstrators from the walkway peacefully before using pepper spray against them.

One video of the pepper-spray incident shows a group of officers moving in to remove the students from the walkway. Just as one of them reaches down to pick up a female student who was leaning against a friend, however, Lt. Pike waves the group back, clearing a space for him to use pepper spray without risk of accidentally spraying his colleagues.

Except that what they did was illegal, you don't have a right to break the law. That is why they shouldn't have a right to do that on campus, you don't have a right to break the law.

That sweeping generalization is false. If a law is unjust, not only do you have the right to break it, you often have an obligation to.

 

[Hydranockz]

Who lied? I see quotes you posted, but nothing indicates they lied.

What they said had happened had not happened. That be lyin'.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

http://studentactivism.net/2011/11/...-know-about-fridays-uc-davis-police-violence/

Not sure if posted, but definitely worth reading:

Student Activism? I'm sure that's an unbiased source.

That sweeping generalization is false. If a law is unjust, not only do you have the right to break it, you often have an obligation to.

Thats a horrible idea, what about people who think laws barring protestors access to abortion clincs are unjust.

You have any idea how dumb an idea like that is or do you mean only for things you support?

Have you actually watched the video? They clearly weren't cut off from anything, and they clearly weren't concerned for their safety (unless when concerned for their safety police are known to showboat).

Does the video truly provide an accurate context?

 

[Psychotext]

Does the video truly provide an accurate context?

Enough video does, yes.

Circle the issue as much as you like. Those cops were neither scared or trapped.

 

[Hydranockz]

Does the video truly provide an accurate context?

Yes. Please explain how visual proof is not accurate context compared to statements releases by the police that say otherwise.

 

[Suikoguy]

Student Activism? I'm sure that's an unbiased source.

I know it's much easier to attack the source, then the content, but at least try.

Yes. Please explain how visual proof is not accurate context compared to statements releases by the police that say otherwise.

You have to understand his line of thinking; that the annoying protestors had to be wrong. When you think of it from that view, it's obvious.

Edit:

You have to be thankful technology has gotten so cheap, that it enables enough bystanders to be able to film the bullshit that used to be determined by "The golden police's word versus the lowly peasant".

 

[Hydranockz]

I know it's much easier to attack the source, then the content, but at least try.



You have to understand his line of thinking; that the annoying protestors had to be wrong. When you think of it from that view, it's obvious.

It's not like the videos wre only 30 seconds long either, where context would be much more difficult to ascertain.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Yes. Please explain how visual proof is not accurate context compared to statements releases by the police that say otherwise.

The angle it was shot at, was it zoomed or wide, is the tape contnious, when does the tape begin and end, etc. All those things can lead to an incorrect context emerging depending on what the values for those settings are.

Enough video does, yes.

Circle the issue as much as you like. Those cops were neither scared or trapped.

Considering how most cops find approaching the door of a car on a routine traffic stop as one of the more terrifying parts of their job, I don't think you can rule them being scared for their safety. How did they not know if someone had a knife on them? It's no different when approaching the front of the car or say dealing with an apparent mentally ill suspect. You cannot tell what will happen or who the person involved will be.

I know it's much easier to attack the source, then the content, but at least try.

Please, that's like citing the FOP giving an analysis for the cops side. If the source is junk, the content itself is often irreverent to look at.

You have to be thankful technology has gotten so cheap, that it enables enough bystanders to be able to film the bullshit that used to be determined by "The golden police's word versus the lowly peasant".

Assuming the police actually did something wrong.

 

[marrec]

Does the video truly provide an accurate context?

Ya, I think the video provides enough context. Officers were stepping gingerly over the line of protesters without any problem. The only danger was of them tripping, or kicking a protester in the head.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

The thing about this Mayonnaise Mouth Manos fool is that he keeps talking about wanting to debate something, but he never brings up anything to debate about because he has nothing to debate about. He's like somehow made Anti-OWS a religion and is the self appointed Zealot of the group.

Also of note is that the officers that used the pepper spray have been put on leave. Right there is your unbeatable proof that the whole incident was not handled properly. There wouldn't have been an incident if the officers wouldn't have been there in the first place. So there is nothing to argue about, they were put on leave, shut the fuck up.

And people can throw the "It's the law" card all they want, but that's bullshit and any person with a brain knows this. Lots of things are illegal that I witness every day and I never see people get tickets, arrests, or even pepper sprayed for them. According to Manos and Royalan if you are caught doing something like jaywalking or pulling through one parking space to the next then you should be pepper sprayed cause "it's the law and you broke it".

 

[Psychotext]

Considering how most cops find approaching the door of a car on a routine traffic stop as one of the more terrifying parts of their job, I don't think you can rule them being scared for their safety. How did they not know if someone had a knife on them?

So I'm assuming you really haven't watched the videos then? That, or American cops really are strange in that they smile and seem completely at ease when they're scared.

That must make for some really strange traffic stops.

Plus, of course you're ignoring the other lie... in that they were definitely not trapped.

 

[royalan]

Considering how most cops find approaching the door of a car on a routine traffic stop as one of the more terrifying parts of their job, I don't think you can rule them being scared for their safety. How did they not know if someone had a knife on them? It's no different when approaching the front of the car or say dealing with an apparent mentally ill suspect. You cannot tell what will happen or who the person involved will be.

A thousand times this.

And people can throw the "It's the law" card all they want, but that's bullshit and any person with a brain knows this. Lots of things are illegal that I witness every day and I never see people get tickets, arrests, or even pepper sprayed for them. According to Manos and Royalan if you are caught doing something like jaywalking or pulling through one parking space to the next then you should be pepper sprayed cause "it's the law and you broke it".

That's not what I'm arguing at all. I jaywalk all the time knowing it's illegal, but if a cop decided that to give me a ticket for it I'd have nobody to blame but myself for thinking that just because "people get away with it all the time" means that it's no longer against the law.

Now, if I decided to be an idiot and act a hot ass mess over the ticket, and then resisted the resulting attempt at arrest and then a cop sprayed me? Yeah...I'd still have nobody to blame but myself.

 

[equap]

is he the new "Haters Gonna Hate" guy?

 

[Sub_Level]

It's good nobody got seriously injured at least. Heard on NPR today a couple protestors were killed just yesterday in Cairo.

Good on the students for showing restraint.

 

[Red Blaster]

has manos created the fascist-gaf thread in the community forum yet

 

[AstroLad]

Honestly instead of whining the little rich kids should be glad they just got pepper spray instead of getting tazered (which would also have been fine given the circumstances. They were breaking the law -- now such thing as "due process" when you are breaking the law: all bets are off.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

dat ass

 

[marrec]

A thousand times this.

I'm not sure how Manos' quote has anything to do with a line of protests seated on the ground. Cops do a hard job and should be rightly on edge most of the time... but when presented with a circle of college kids linked arms and refusing to move?

Either way, that's not what the argument should be about. If the cop was scared for his life, he still shouldn't have pepper-sprayed those kids.

It's good nobody got seriously injured at least. Heard on NPR today a couple protestors were killed just yesterday in Cairo.

Good on the students for showing restraint.

It's really astounding how well everything went considering. My respect for that branch of OWS went up a notch that's for sure.

 

[railGUN]

Troll thread? Troll thread.

 

[Plumbob]

Student Activism? I'm sure that's an unbiased source.

Well if any of the claims it makes are factually incorrect, or the evidence flawed, you should post another source refuting them. Otherwise you're going to have to deal with some uncomfortable facts that challenge your position.

Thats a horrible idea, what about people who think laws barring protestors access to abortion clincs are unjust.

You have any idea how dumb an idea like that is or do you mean only for things you support?

Whether it's right or wrong to block access to an abortion clinic is independent of the law. Just like whether or not it is right or wrong to help slaves escape their owners is independent of the law. Just like whether or not it is right or wrong to harbor Jews is independent of the law. Just like whether it's okay to have gay sex in Texas is independent of the law. Just like whether it's okay for a black woman to keep her seat at the front of the bus is independent of the law. The law does not decide what is right and what is wrong. Hopefully it reflects what is right and what is wrong. Sadly, that is not always the case.