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[harriet the spy]

But that's the thing, it's not an overreach of police power. If it were, countless cans of the stuff wouldn't be allowed to be on the budget. But it is. Cops aren't smuggling the stuff in.

And this is my point. People can be against the use of pepper spray all they want, but too many people are channel that into their general disdain for the police. The police were doing as they were trained to do. Go higher if you want to complain.

This incident should not be categorized as an example of overreach of police power or brutality when they are doing what they were trained to do. This incident, if anything, should be categorized as an example of why police shouldn't be authorized to use pepper spray.

People need to stop making it about the indivicual police and start making about the people who make the policies that they work by.

I don't think that's a good argument. Being on the budget does not mean its usage is approved for any circumstance. They are not going to pepper spray you because you jaywalked. You can think that a pepper spray is a good tool for a cop's job (say, if the protesters tried to jump him), without thinking that it was appropriate in the situation. You and Manos think it was fine, others disagree. I don't think there is much agreement that can be reached here.

 

[royalan]

Who isn't doing that?

You're making blanket assumptions about the rest of us because you're upset that you think we're making blanket statements about the police.

Did you miss all the posts suggesting that the cops in those videos should be put on criminal trial?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

. You and Manos think it was fine, others disagree. I don't think there is much agreement that can be reached here.

I think that's a fair summation.

 

[commedieu]

This is going to cost all of us lots of money when each student sues the department & the college. And don't even start with the "buh buh legally." No. Legally lindsay lohan should be in prison, she isn't. Literally prison. Legally a lot of things are supposed to happen. They don't. They will settle, taking more of my taxes. And for what? They didn't even arrest anyone out there.

Its disgusting to watch. All of this is. The most disgusting thing to watch though, is the OWS/Protest haters in general. You'd think that everyone is always in a race to make it past protests, as they are always in support of severe police brutality for impeding a sidewalk. Yet spend 99% of their time posting on an online forum.

These guys were protesting an unbelievable tuition hike. So shouldn't you support them, since they have a single message?! And a spokesperson? That is after all the biggest issue with OWS. Well along with feigning confusion over the entire thing, pretending you're part of the 1%, and that everyone is a hippie who thinks the world's economy is in a severe downturn shouldn't apply here. Should It?

I know its all out of a fear of change. But change has already happened. The world can't continue to go down a route where things like OWS doesn't exist. Why is no one seeing this? I'd love to live in a delusional world of the hater. Where I could sit back and make fun of the OWS morons, get my luls in, and go to my cush job that will be secure for decades to come. I clear 6 figures, but even I see the writing on the wall. I'm lucky as hell to still be working. Thank god for entertainment. However, just because I can find work, doesn't mean that there are those with my exact same skillset and experience that can. It also doesn't give me the right to shit on anyone who isn't fortunate/lucky enough.

Everyone around the world, including severely highly educated people from all walks of life can understand the importance of OWS/Protest in general. Yet, PimpMan9395 over here can't. Well, just know there is something you may be missing, but the rest of us have it covered.

 

[videogamer]

I was being a bit hyperbolic, I'll admit. Nobody actually said those exact words, obviously. But the general atmosphere [initially] in this thread and elsewhere was that it was appropriate to place majority blame on the cops. Some people in this thread were even calling for the cops to be put on criminal trial.

Placing blame on the police to applied pepper spray does not give license to exaggerate and distort.

Because you're on private property.

Is a public university private property?

 

[Yaboosh]

Is a public university private property?

For the most part, yes, I believe it is considered private property.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Did you miss all the posts suggesting that the cops in those videos should be put on criminal trial?

I just did a thread search. Out of 91 people that have posted, 2 people suggested this police officer should go through a criminal trial. A third person referenced that someone else had said it.

Funny how you've been judging and making assumptions of all of us because of the words of two people while you've also ranted about how we shouldn't judge all police because of the actions of a few.

 

[statham]

This is going to cost all of us lots of money when each student sues the department & the college. And don't even start with the "buh buh legally." No. Legally lindsay lohan should be in prison, she isn't. Literally prison. Legally a lot of things are supposed to happen. They don't. They will settle, taking more of my taxes. And for what? They didn't even arrest anyone out there.

Its disgusting to watch. All of this is. The most disgusting thing to watch though, is the OWS/Protest haters in general. You'd think that everyone is always in a race to make it past protests, as they are always in support of severe police brutality for impeding a sidewalk. Yet spend 99% of their time posting on an online forum.

These guys were protesting an unbelievable tuition hike. So shouldn't you support them, since they have a single message?! And a spokesperson? That is after all the biggest issue with OWS. Well along with feigning confusion over the entire thing, pretending you're part of the 1%, and that everyone is a hippie who thinks the world's economy is in a severe downturn shouldn't apply here. Should It?

I know its all out of a fear of change. But change has already happened. The world can't continue to go down a route where things like OWS doesn't exist. Why is no one seeing this? I'd love to live in a delusional world of the hater. Where I could sit back and make fun of the OWS morons, get my luls in, and go to my cush job that will be secure for decades to come. I clear 6 figures, but even I see the writing on the wall. I'm lucky as hell to still be working. Thank god for entertainment. However, just because I can find work, doesn't mean that there are those with my exact same skillset and experience that can. It also doesn't give me the right to shit on anyone who isn't fortunate/lucky enough.

Everyone around the world, including severely highly educated people from all walks of life can understand the importance of OWS/Protest in general. Yet, PimpMan9395 over here can't. Well, just know there is something you may be missing, but the rest of us have it covered.

this is what I've been trying to say, these kids are so bad they deserved to be pepper-sprayed but not arrested. If they are doing something SO bad and against the law why not arrest them, charge them have them do a little time in jail, hell they did break the law (right manos?) why aren't they in jail. instead they get pepper sprayed without judge, jury or trial. How is that american. I'm glad the two cops are now on leave.

 

[kame-sennin]

But that's the thing, it's not an overreach of police power. If it were, countless cans of the stuff wouldn't be allowed to be on the budget. But it is. Cops aren't smuggling the stuff in.

And this is my point. People can be against the use of pepper spray all they want, but too many people are channel that into their general disdain for the police. The police were doing as they were trained to do. Go higher if you want to complain.

This incident should not be categorized as an example of overreach of police power or brutality when they are doing what they were trained to do. This incident, if anything, should be categorized as an example of why police shouldn't be authorized to use pepper spray.

People need to stop making it about the individual police and start making about the people who make the policies that they work by.

Dude, we're on the same page. When I say "police overreach" I'm talking about the police as an institution. In other words, that the police should not be allowed to use pepper spray in these scenarios going forward - which is what you just said. I have no problem with individual cops.

If it was because he was breaking the law and got sprayed because he wanted to use a legitimate movement as an excuse to clash with the police, I'd tell my kid he was an idiot, and that he got it from his mother.

Kids should learn how to protest as part of their civic development. College should be a safe place for them to learn how to do it. The Chancellor fucked up by calling in cops in riot gear to deal with this. Whatever happened to campus debates? Why not invite the protesters to an assembly?

that's not what happened in the video

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.co...er-spraying-of-students/news/2011/11/19/30450

 

[royalan]

I just did a thread search. Out of 91 people that have posted, 2 people suggested this police officer should go through a criminal trial. A third person referenced that someone else had said it.

Funny how you've been judging and making assumptions of all of us because of the words of two people while you've also ranted about how we shouldn't judge all police because of the actions of a few.

When did I ever reference everyone who posted in this thread? Now who's exaggerating?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I just did a thread search. Out of 91 people that have posted, 2 people suggested this police officer should go through a criminal trial. A third person referenced that someone else had said it.

Funny how you've been judging and making assumptions of all of us because of the words of two people while you've also ranted about how we shouldn't judge all police because of the actions of a few.

Look up Mercury Fred Posts in the OWS thread.

 

[harriet the spy]

Out of curiosity, what were the students blocking exactly? Were they preventing access to some place?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

When did I ever reference everyone who posted in this thread? Now who's exaggerating?

You said "Did you miss all the posts suggesting that the cops in those videos should be put on criminal trial" to defend against my accusation that you're making blanket statements about the rest of GAF.

There are 2 people who called for a criminal trial out of 91 posters so far. "All those posts" as a defense doesn't work when it's been barely a blip in the thread. You're yelling at the clouds.

 

[royalan]

Kids should learn how to protest as part of their civic development. College should be a safe place for them to learn how to do it. The Chancellor fucked up by calling in cops in riot gear to deal with this. Whatever happened to campus debates? Why not invite the protesters to an assembly?

I take issue with this. Proper protesting does not always have to mean clashing with the cops. I feel like the younger generation has lost sight of that. I added this on to an earlier post, so people probably missed it:

EDIT: In my experience most cops don't care what you're protesting about, just as long as you don't do anything to make their jobs any more difficult. And lot of younger protesters lose sight of the goal of their protest (raising awareness and to spur action) when they let it become about clashing with the police.

This reminds me of when I was protesting in Pittsburgh during the G20 Summit. I was standing in front of a building with a group of friends and a cop came over and asked us to move because we were blocking the entrance. My one friend and I moved (conveniently to where most of the protesters were anyway), while my other friend decided that that would be the perfect time to stand up to the police. Needless to say, he was arrested. He thinks he's a hero for it. In reality, he's an idiot.

Would the message of those students protesting tuition hikes been any less effective if they weren't doing it on a private sidewalk? Or was the fact that they were doing it on private property and clashing with the police the only reason anyone cares right now anyway?

You said "Did you miss all the posts suggesting that the cops in those videos should be put on criminal trial?" There are 2.

I used the word "all" loosely. But if you go between this thread AND the OWS thread, you'll see a lot of people demonizing the police for doing their jobs.

 

[harriet the spy]

You said "Did you miss all the posts suggesting that the cops in those videos should be put on criminal trial?" There are 2.

Besides, saying this is not a blanket statement about cops - it's actually the opposite. It's a very targeted statement.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Kids should learn how to protest as part of their civic development. College should be a safe place for them to learn how to do it. The Chancellor fucked up by calling in cops in riot gear to deal with this. Whatever happened to campus debates? Why not invite the protesters to an assembly?
]

College shouldnt be a safe place to break the law.

 

[demon]

Out of curiosity, what were the students blocking exactly? Were they preventing access to some place?

Yes. They were blocking access to approximately 30 square feet of sidewalk pavement, normally accessible from all directions. Violent criminals of the highest order.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

You said "Did you miss all the posts suggesting that the cops in those videos should be put on criminal trial" to defend against my accusation that you're making blanket statements about the rest of GAF.

There are 2 people who called for a criminal trial out of 91 posters so far. "All those posts" as a defense doesn't work when it's been barely a blip in the thread. You're yelling at the clouds.

Did you look in the OWS thread?

This reminds me of when I was protesting in Pittsburgh during the G20 Summit. I was standing in front of a building with a group of friends and a cop came over and asked us to move because we were blocking the entrance. My one friend and I moved (conveniently to where most of the protesters were anyway), while my other friend decided that that would be the perfect time to stand up to the police. Needless to say, he was arrested. He thinks he's a hero for it. In reality, he's an idiot.

Now that is a perfectly reasonable and intelligent view of protesting and not breaking the law.

Yes. They were blocking access

Thank you for admitting they were breaking the law.

 

[Hydranockz]

Thank you for admitting they were breaking the law.

"Bake 'em away toys!"

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

The police at UC Davis needed to use pepper spray to move a dozen kids from a sidewalk, but Portland, Oregon did a midnight eviction of an entire camp with hundreds of campers and thousands of protestors and only had to use pepper spray once to break up a random fight between protestors. There was a also separate event where kids sat in a park where police rolled up a van and arrested them and drove them away without needing to do anything stupid.

Anyone defending the need of pepper spray in at UC Davis is purposely ignoring the non-violent, non-weaponized jobs done much better by police departments elsewhere. There's no excuse for how badly this situation has played out.

 

[Yaboosh]

Thank you for admitting they were breaking the law.

Just for the sake of clarity, which law specifically are you referring to?

 

[harriet the spy]

College shouldnt be a safe place to break the law.

Oh come on, stop being a sophist. The implication is clear that he thinks protesting in that particular way should be legal. You can disagree, but answering this to 'it should be safe to protest in college' is a pointless fallacy. If you want to say something constructive, argue why protesting in such a way should be unlawful.

(disclosure: i have no idea what they were doing besides the fact they were seating and joining arms)

 

[harriet the spy]

Thank you for admitting they were breaking the law.

I can't really see the geography of the scene, but I honestly don't think why this should be illegal. If it's easy to go around them and they are not really blocking access / traffic in a significant fashion, I think you're just looking for reason to find them in the wrong.
In France, protesting students usually chain themselves to the campus door, so that even the students that try to go study are barred from doing that. That i find extremely obnoxious, even if i agreed with their objective. But this? I don't know. It sounds like a petty squabble.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Just for the sake of clarity, which law specifically are you referring to?

Unlawful assembly
http://handslegal.com/index.php/Cal...ode_§_407_-_Unlawful_assembly_definition.html
http://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/calcrim/2600/2686.html

Oh come on, stop being a sophist. The implication is clear that he thinks protesting in that particular way should be legal. You can disagree, but answering this to 'it should be safe to protest in college' is a pointless fallacy. If you want to say something constructive, argue why protesting in such a way should be unlawful.

(disclosure: i have no idea what they were doing besides the fact they were seating and joining arms)

Well the thing was it was illegal.

 

[statham]

Yes. They were blocking access to approximately 30 square feet of sidewalk pavement, normally accessible from all directions. Violent criminals of the highest order.

they should get pepper-sprayed. I have never been peppered sprayed but I did pepper spray my friend (he wanted it, saying if he closed his eyes, ect, and $20 bet) I never saw a dude more in pain, screaming, crying from it. its not minor. this asshole used military grade made for 15 feet back at 3 feet.

 

[Hydranockz]

Unlawful assembly

Sitting anywhere is unlawful assembly by that logic is it not?

 

[harriet the spy]

Unlawful assembly

http://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/calcrim/2600/2686.html
Well the thing was I was illegal.

Well you can say that and very well be right, but it's not a very interesting discussion. It's illegal to be gay in iran. This is correct. That does not mean it's right. Whether it's right or not to be able to protest in such a way can actually lead to some kind of debate. Otherwise you're just trying to win an argument - again, I don't think the other poster's point was whether it was actually legal or not, but whether it should be ok and safe or not. So I think you're just dodging his point and answering a completely different question.

 

[statham]

Yes. They were blocking access to approximately 30 square feet of sidewalk pavement, normally accessible from all directions. Violent criminals of the highest order.

I have never been peppered sprayed but I did pepper spray my friend (he wanted it, saying if he closed his eyes, ect, and $20 bet) I never saw a dude more in pain, screaming, crying from it. its not minor. this asshole used military grade made for 15 feet back at 3 feet.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Sitting anywhere is unlawful assembly by that logic is it not?

No, it appears to be based on what is done, it is location nuetural though, at first glance at least.

Well you can say that and very well be right, but it's not a very interesting discussion. It's illegal to be gay in iran. This is correct. That does not mean it's right. Whether it's right or not to be able to protest in such a way can actually lead to some kind of debate. Otherwise you're just trying to win an argument - again, I don't think the other poster's point was whether it was actually legal or not, but whether it should be ok and safe or not. So I think you're just dodging his point and answering a completely different question.

It should not be okay and safe to break the law. I'm not really dodging anything, I just cleary stated my thought on it

 

[Yaboosh]

No, it appears to be based on what is done, it is location nuetural though, at first glance at least.



It should not be okay and safe to break the law. I'm not really dodging anything, I just cleary stated my thought on it

How is what they did unlawful assembly as defined by your link? They didn't assemble to commit an illegal act, and I don't think they were violent, boisterous or tumultuous (and what are the legal definitions of those last two anyway?)

 

[royalan]

they should get pepper-sprayed. I have never been peppered sprayed but I did pepper spray my friend (he wanted it, saying if he closed his eyes, ect, and $20 bet) I never saw a dude more in pain, screaming, crying from it. its not minor. this asshole used military grade made for 15 feet back at 3 feet.

Actually, the kind of pepper spray that the police use is no more potent than what anyone can buy.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

How is what they did unlawful assembly as defined by your link? They didn't assemble to commit an illegal act, and I don't think they were violent, boisterous or tumultuous (and what are the legal definitions of those last two anyway?)

They assembled to block access to a walkway.

That said depending on the definition of the last two, those may also apply.

 

[Yaboosh]

They assembled to block access to a walkway.

That said depending on the definition of the last two, those may also apply.

Then blocking access to the walkway is the crime they committed. What law is that?

 

[Psychotext]

And is it the cops' fault for being trained to use pepper spray in those incidents?

Enough of this shit. It's one small step away from "we were only following orders".

I'm really struggling to believe that there are people here genuinely suggesting that pepper spray to the face is an appropriate response to non-violent, passive demonstration. You might want to think about what you're doing there, because essentially you're stating that you're happy to give up any rights you may have had to protest... which seems utterly bizarre from a country which prides itself on its freedoms.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Then blocking access to the walkway is the crime they committed. What law is that?

647e Disordely Conduct most likely
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/15/2/s647

(e)Who lodges in any building, structure, vehicle, or place, whether public or private, without the permission of the owner or person entitled to the possession or in control of it.

 

[videogamer]

When did I ever reference everyone who posted in this thread? Now who's exaggerating?

Please, you were the one who used the thread's "general atmosphere" as an excuse to make up facts.

 

[royalan]

Please, you were the one who used the thread's "general atmosphere" as an excuse to make up facts.

And what facts did I make up?

 

[statham]

Enough of this shit. It's one small step away from "we were only following orders".

I'm really struggling to believe that there are people here genuinely suggesting that pepper spray to the face is an appropriate response to non-violent, passive demonstration. You might want to think about what you're doing there, because essentially you're stating that you're happy to give up any rights you may have had to protest... which seems utterly bizarre from a country which prides itself on its freedoms.

.

 

[royalan]

Enough of this shit. It's one small step away from "we were only following orders".

I'm really struggling to believe that there are people here genuinely suggesting that pepper spray to the face is an appropriate response to non-violent, passive demonstration. You might want to think about what you're doing there, because essentially you're stating that you're happy to give up any rights you may have had to protest... which seems utterly bizarre from a country which prides itself on its freedoms.

I wasn't aware that people had the "right" to protest on private property and eschew the will of the police in the first place.

 

[harriet the spy]

No, it appears to be based on what is done, it is location nuetural though, at first glance at least.



It should not be okay and safe to break the law. I'm not really dodging anything, I just cleary stated my thought on it

I hate to be a pedant, but unless you think it should never be ok to break any law, no matter how wrong, you are dodging. I don't know how it can be simpler than that:

A: " It should be safe and legal to do X"
B: "It should never be safe to break the law, even for X".

Either you believe B, whatever X is (insert your favorite straw man of a morally wrong law here), in which case you were indeed not dodging the point but in this case hold an outlandish opinion,

Or you don't believe B is valid whatever X is, in which case you gave a completely besides the point one-liner to a guy's argument, which was not about the legality of the act in the first place

 

[Captain Sparrow]

Time for another installment of here's a picture, create your own story!

Pepper spray might have been extreme, but again, I don't have all of the facts. The police station doesn't need to be bogged down with a bunch of arrests because a bunch of hippies wanted to be hippies.

Won't see any sympathy out of me. Paint the police in any light that you want, but try dealing the the crap that they put up with. The reactions sound like the police just went up to random citizens and did this. They all had the opportunity to avoid this.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Time for another installment of here's a picture, create your own story!

Pepper spray might have been extreme, but again, I don't have all of the facts. The police station doesn't need to be bogged down with a bunch of arrests because a bunch of hippies wanted to be hippies.

Won't see any sympathy out of me. Paint the police in any light that you want, but try dealing the the crap that they put up with. The reactions sound like the police just went up to random citizens and did this. They all had the opportunity to avoid this.

Sounds like a rough life to have to deal with a bunch of kids sitting on the ground.

 

[Psychotext]

I wasn't aware that people had the "right" to protest on private property and eschew the will of the police in the first place.

Are your universities now considering themselves private property to the students who pay to utilise them? Are students no longer encouraged to speak out against the injustices they perceive?

Time was that a university was considered a safe place for protests, demonstrations and political debates.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I hate to be a pedant, but unless you think it should never be ok to break any law, no matter how wrong, you are dodging. I don't know how it can be simpler than that:

A: " It should be safe and legal to do X"
B: "It should never be safe to break the law, even for X".

Either you believe B, whatever X is (insert your favorite straw man of a morally wrong law here), in which case you were indeed not dodging the point but in this case hold an outlandish opinion,

Or you don't believe B is valid whatever X is, in which case you gave a completely besides the point one-liner to a guy's argument, which was not about the legality of the act in the first place

B. If you break the law you have to face the consequences of your actions, even if it is morally correct believe.

These police you speak of... aren't they essentially just privately employed campus security?

That aside, are your universities now considering themselves private property to the students who pay to utilise them? Are students no longer encouraged to speak out against the injustices they perceive? Time was that a university was considered a safe place for protests, demonstrations and political debats.

In NY they are actually agents of the state, not sure about CA.

 

[Byakuya769]

Time for another installment of here's a picture, create your own story!

Pepper spray might have been extreme, but again, I don't have all of the facts. The police station doesn't need to be bogged down with a bunch of arrests because a bunch of hippies wanted to be hippies.

Won't see any sympathy out of me. Paint the police in any light that you want, but try dealing the the crap that they put up with. The reactions sound like the police just went up to random citizens and did this. They all had the opportunity to avoid this.

I honestly heard the cop say, "This pepper spray hurts me more than it hurts you."

 

[Psychotext]

In NY they are actually agents of the state, not sure about CA.

Fair enough. Removed.

 

[harriet the spy]

B. If you break the law you have to face the consequences of your actions, even if it is morally correct believe.

This explains your support for the pepper spraying, but does not make it obvious that you shouldn't have the right to protest in that way on campus. As in, 'they broke the law so the cops had to react, but that law is not morally right in the first place'.

 

[royalan]

Are your universities now considering themselves private property to the students who pay to utilise them? Are students no longer encouraged to speak out against the injustices they perceive?

Time was that a university was considered a safe place for protests, demonstrations and political debates.

Ugh, for the last time: Just because it is a public school does not mean it isn't private property.

Secondly, universities will always be a safe place to protest...within the guidelines of the university. We can't all be as lawless as Penn State.

Besides, successful protests usually succeed on the strength of their message. Not by how often they clash with the cops.

 

[Psychotext]

Secondly, universities will always be a safe place to protest...within the guidelines of the university.

I can only assume that in this case it doesn't mean stopping... anywhere?

Still, constantly mobile protests could be entertaining. If a little tiring.

 

[harriet the spy]

Secondly, universities will always be a safe place to protest...within the guidelines of the university. We can't all be as lawless as Penn State.

You should be ashamed of making such a ridiculously shitty analogy / straw man. It should really make anyone with a functioning brain automatically avoid to have any meaningful discussion with you.