Let me ask you again. Why do you think Microsoft is enforcing a review embargo?
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Adam Sessler's: On Xbox One and PS4's Resolutiongate, and Day One Patches
- Thread starter Tripon
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I just want a site not funded by publisher advertising where the journalists involved sign up to not suckle from the freebie teat but actually get the games through normal retail channels and compare and contrast them without external influence.
They'd never get an exclusive, but I don;t give a shit about hearing about a game exclusively first a month ahead of the street date. I just want to know if it will be any good from a person without an agenda.
Had he referred to his previous statement at the convention and spoke to a change of heart that is fine. What actually happened is that he forgot what his opinion was. Politicians do this a lot as they are beholden to special a variety of special interests.
Either Sessler is trolling to get clicks or he has a special interest he is representing ie MS.
Back then he did not say 720p and 1080p were basically the same so who cares. That's a new development.
Which is a rather obtuse framing of the issue since, other than himself in his own earlier quote, few are really trying to make resolution "such a definitive aspect" of next-gen gaming.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Why would Sessler be completely impartial or his views totally objective?
A single Youtube 'personality' is probably the easiest part of the gaming media to influence with a sly little hoodwink from one of the big players.
This is the guy that had a public cry over his livelihood being threatened by something trivial iirc. He'll do and say what he has to in order to keep making money.
Problem is he's meant to be platform agnostic. If he appears like he isn't, which is the case, he loses all credibility and will fade into obscurity.
A single Youtube 'personality' is probably the easiest part of the gaming media to influence with a sly little hoodwink from one of the big players.
This is the guy that had a public cry over his livelihood being threatened by something trivial iirc. He'll do and say what he has to in order to keep making money.
Problem is he's meant to be platform agnostic. If he appears like he isn't, which is the case, he loses all credibility and will fade into obscurity.
The bolded i understand, but what's the logic in "raging" at a product not being good enough? So the Xbone is the inferior and overpriced product between the two, buy a ps4 or get a PC.
If a car manufacturer releases a shitty overpriced car, i buy a competitor's.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
Did he say that? Quote please.
Other than all the people that participate in these threads?
graywolf323
Member
pretty sure Shinobi tweeted him about it and didn't get a response
What does his twitter feed look like lately?
I tweeted it too. He's just ignoring it.
Alebrije
Member
So the Xbone is new new Wii :
It could have games like Mario Galaxy with great gmeplay , enjoyable but at the end with users wonder: what if it were running at 1080p?
Gameplay is a premise obviously , but if you can enhance it with better graphics /effects you have a better product, so you can not ignore this factor.
It could have games like Mario Galaxy with great gmeplay , enjoyable but at the end with users wonder: what if it were running at 1080p?
Gameplay is a premise obviously , but if you can enhance it with better graphics /effects you have a better product, so you can not ignore this factor.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Well, there's no reason to "rage" at the Xbox One. However, what some resent is disingenuously framing these things as legitimate horse races where everyone is on equal footing. And this isn't a problem exclusive to gaming journalism either. Again, I think I can understand the frustration some are experiencing during these trying times where everything gets amplified to 11 due to launch hype. When the conversation is dominated by a topic that may not be particularly interesting to an individual, I can understand reaching for a more idealistic stance. However, I think that can be misguided at times.
Tech certainly isn't as important to everyone else as it is to an enthusiast community such as this (or any similar place). This is true. It's not inherently egregious to point this out. But I don't think it makes for inherently better op-eds to trivialize the role tech plays in this hobby by making potentially big discrepancies appear to be small concerns in what is otherwise anybody's game to win. Basically, I don't think just declaring "it's about the games, people" is really all that meaningful a sentiment.
Exactly. I don't know if "diminishing returns" is still taboo here on GAF, but go back and look at the graphical improvements from 2003 to 2013 and compare those to the improvements from 1993 to 2003 and you'll start to see that we're not getting leaps and bounds of improvements.
And even though this is a gaming forum and Sessler is a gaming journalist, the data shows that the majority of time spent by consumers on consoles is NOT spent gaming. The entire experience needs to improve and I think MS chose a more balanced approach while sacrificing very little on the gaming side to achieve their goals.
I'm down. I don't know that anyone would want to hear me speak about this specific subject, since it's been done to death.
Because you are in these threads for more noble reasons like....?
Pristine_Condition
Member
Double-post. Sorry.
Pristine_Condition
Member
Yes. Context is key here.
And the context in this very case is a comparison between two different versions of the same game. In this case, his argument about "new experiences" or whatever is completely irrelevant. We are talking about a comparison of two different platforms on which to have more or less the same experience, in which one machine is performing at a higher level than the other.
That's the context. That's the subjject he's addressing.
So, in context, by bringing up this "new experiences" argument in a discussion about the measurable, technical differences between two versions of the same game, Sessler is not only moving the goalposts...he's trying to burn down the scoreboard.
You don't see how, in talking about two versions of the same game, this sudden blindspot towards measurable technical deficiencies in the XBone version is troubling? You honestly can't reason past his trumped-up argument about "new experiences" to see that it's a classic fallacy of "false choice?"
Look, for months we've known about the numbers. The numbers say the PS4 is the more powerful console. More FLOP performance, more ROPs, more ACEs, faster RAM, ect. We've known that. But the dialog we've gotten in response from Microsoft, (both in the media and even directly here with executives like Albert Penello and his "technical fellow" here on GAF,) the media pundits, and the XBone fans has been basically, "the numbers don't tell the whole story...wait until you see the games!"
Well, we're seeing the games. Now they want us to ignore what we're seeing.
But what we are seeing is important. The reason why multi-platform console titles are important is because, in the console world, the public doesn't have access to benchmarking results. If any multi-plat dev teams do benchmark the hardware, those results are locked behind licensing agreements and NDAs. While multiplatform games will never be a true benchmark, they are a valuable "snapshot" look at the state of the boxes and what these very smart teams of developers can wring out of them at the time.
Why is the technical performance of the box so important? Because, even though framerate and resolution are way more important than some pundits are now trying to claim, it won't always be about putting more pixels on screen, or refreshing the screen at a higher framerate. The same power that lets you do those things is the same power that lets you present more immersive art assets, makes an AI routine a little smarter, makes a character animate better, or makes more physics possible.
...and that gets us right back to Sessler's core point about making better games.
...and that gets us right back to Sessler being a huge hypocrite.
...and that gets us right back to the part where he and his defenders try to make US GAMERS the bad guys for pointing out his hypocrisy.
The most ironic thing is that Killzone Shadowfall does just that and delivers the next gen expectation of 1080p and 60FPS (Well...)
I see both criticism and unneeded hate in this thread. Moreso of the latter. It's insane.
That's an awful summary. Adam said much more than resolution doesn't matter (though he's still not really right.) and gaf sure as hell said a lot more than just say "Doesn't that sound hypocritical?".
Difference is that the Wii embraced how different it was. The Xbox one is.claiming to be just as powerful as the ps4
Nymphae
Banned
I get what you're saying. It sucks that twitter is a platform where these clowns just get to spew shit and not have to respond to anyone because the overwhelming majority of replies are hateful. I'm looking at you Gies.
What did sony sacrifice for this lack of balance ?
Alebrije
Member
Yep but at the same time Ms claim : "the numbers don't tell the whole story...wait until you see the games!"
If they do not matther , why a FORZA 5 and Kinetic games at 1080p and not 720p , with 720p they could add other features to "improve" the exprience since 1080p seems to be not important for a gameplay experience...
Teletraan1
Banned
excellent post
On a technical level? Yes. Purely on a gameplay basis? Arguable, unless we're talking about stuff related to connectivity. Which has not much do to with specs of the machines.
I mean, unless you've got amazing examples, but personally I don't see which tremendously new gameplay experiences have been brought by last gen's specs bump compared to the one before.
Complains about Sessler being misrepresented, has no problem broadly misrepresenting everyone else.
Pristine_Condition
Member
Thanks!
Mass Effect
Member
And...? Why should any of that matter if the games are good? Same thing with the Wii U vs PS4/Xbone/PC.
bigboss370
Member
exactly, and I think its wrong for these gaming media people to try and speak for the "average gamer" on this matter, because that is literally millions of people whose experiences they are generalizing. They're actually going around claiming what millions of people will or will not be able to see, without any research backing it up.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
You've missed the latest news. Apparently we now have to wait until 2014 to judge the power of the consoles...these launch titles, I am being told, don't mean shit...
We aren't having that discussion at all. And w won't for a year. People buying an Xbox one are doing it for the games, not a home media device. On that level maybe it is better; but for now you're trying to grab the attention of the gamers.
And just judging by COD and BF4, you are giving up quite a bit. Certainly enough to question the extra cost in a machine that for its primary purpose of gaming, looks to offer the inferior experience.
He barely talked about call of duty in the video. He used it as a starting point for his argument and moved on almost instantly. His focus in this video was about the emphasis publishers place on resolutions and whether or not that is where the biggest emphasis should be placed. It's not a xb1 specs vs. ps4 specs argument.
And based on his argument. When we start seeing ps4 games with better ai, physics, and experiences, then he will start to care more. If 1080p was so important, he could have been playing multiplatform games on the pc for the last seven years.
He criticized what he sees as a negative mindset. I'm sure that when presented with two identical game sat different resolutions, he would pick the one at the higher resolution (and his review will most likely reflect that). That's not what he is arguing.
Ninja Scooter
Member
But would it not irk you if every major car journalist or media outlet tried to downplay that car's inferiority and seemingly got annoyed at you for making a big deal about it?
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
That's exactly what Sessler is talking about. Game design > Graphics.
I've been thinking about this and I must confess it's a total mess in my head.
On one side we have the aforementioned Jim Sterling that seems to revel in the fact that he got "black listed" and on the other side we have the majority that seems to do their best to sidestep these issues and when pressed they fall back to 06-08 Nintendo/Sony defence force rhetorics. One popular, today and probably the coming weeks, defence is that Mario Galaxy is the GOTG and that game didn't have Pixels -.-
Maybe I should mention that I'm terribly biased against everything Microsoft since before the Xbox 1, I see them as a virus inflicting humanity that can only be destroyed by pure undiluted radioactive fire. Hopefully everyone except the board of directors can make it out alive thou.
But remember 1up? Remember how one particular person there was the but of the jokes everytime s/he mentioned anything positive about Sony during that era? Shane Bettenhausen now of Giantbomb if I remember right?
This is just a buildup of years made BS from these journos, never defending a port, many times even pointing it out as a sales argument, before and now suddenly they do their damned best to not mention the inferiority? Remember that 80%+ of all games made this era where multiplats, very important fact.
But the BS doesn't stop there. One thing many of these journos today have forgotten why Journalism even exists, why they once was actually held in high regard why we trust them.
They Had Us, The Consumer in mind above all else(probably not but it felt like that).
So now we some Clowns trying to defend a company that was about to casually rob us of the small power we had left as consumers. Yeah sod of. Not even remembering what the President of the other company said prior to all this. Yeah sod of again. Trying the best to use some sort of logic (that can only be explained if they were sniffing glue or was constantly high on their own self-importance) that leads them to fabricate costs that apparently doesn't exist in the other camp. Sod of etc etc.
We have some clowns spouting a old saying that has always been used for humanities best. To never hide an injustice, to always defend humanities right to be treated fairly for some asshat reason we still can't say with 100% accuracy. Nah these pioneers would be ashamed of you trying to chime in where they fought with the life on the line.
Yeah I get it, people mature, they can change stance but I find it very hard that these clowns can change colour in just a few months after spouting the reversed just a few months ago.
And if you want to bake in an abstract concept such as fun, why aren't you mentioning WiiU? That system may not have third party 1080p or even support of most third parties but it has some of the funnest games ever and the fact that they actually have backwards compatibility is just icing on the cake.
For those going to defend this "new" stance I say this:
For a few years it wasn't. They dug their own grave when hammering it during the PS360 era.
As you have dug your grave you should lie down in it.
As I said I'm everywhere and can't get a real grip in my feelings, just throwing this out there to see if someone else can challenge it to make me think more.
On one side we have the aforementioned Jim Sterling that seems to revel in the fact that he got "black listed" and on the other side we have the majority that seems to do their best to sidestep these issues and when pressed they fall back to 06-08 Nintendo/Sony defence force rhetorics. One popular, today and probably the coming weeks, defence is that Mario Galaxy is the GOTG and that game didn't have Pixels -.-
Maybe I should mention that I'm terribly biased against everything Microsoft since before the Xbox 1, I see them as a virus inflicting humanity that can only be destroyed by pure undiluted radioactive fire. Hopefully everyone except the board of directors can make it out alive thou.
But remember 1up? Remember how one particular person there was the but of the jokes everytime s/he mentioned anything positive about Sony during that era? Shane Bettenhausen now of Giantbomb if I remember right?
This is just a buildup of years made BS from these journos, never defending a port, many times even pointing it out as a sales argument, before and now suddenly they do their damned best to not mention the inferiority? Remember that 80%+ of all games made this era where multiplats, very important fact.
But the BS doesn't stop there. One thing many of these journos today have forgotten why Journalism even exists, why they once was actually held in high regard why we trust them.
They Had Us, The Consumer in mind above all else(probably not but it felt like that).
So now we some Clowns trying to defend a company that was about to casually rob us of the small power we had left as consumers. Yeah sod of. Not even remembering what the President of the other company said prior to all this. Yeah sod of again. Trying the best to use some sort of logic (that can only be explained if they were sniffing glue or was constantly high on their own self-importance) that leads them to fabricate costs that apparently doesn't exist in the other camp. Sod of etc etc.
We have some clowns spouting a old saying that has always been used for humanities best. To never hide an injustice, to always defend humanities right to be treated fairly for some asshat reason we still can't say with 100% accuracy. Nah these pioneers would be ashamed of you trying to chime in where they fought with the life on the line.
Yeah I get it, people mature, they can change stance but I find it very hard that these clowns can change colour in just a few months after spouting the reversed just a few months ago.
And if you want to bake in an abstract concept such as fun, why aren't you mentioning WiiU? That system may not have third party 1080p or even support of most third parties but it has some of the funnest games ever and the fact that they actually have backwards compatibility is just icing on the cake.
For those going to defend this "new" stance I say this:
For a few years it wasn't. They dug their own grave when hammering it during the PS360 era.
As you have dug your grave you should lie down in it.
As I said I'm everywhere and can't get a real grip in my feelings, just throwing this out there to see if someone else can challenge it to make me think more.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
You miss his point. Yes, multiplatforms are better on the PS4 but that doesn't tell the whole story because we haven't seen much in the way of exclusives for each platform so recommending one over the other right now is too early for people who care more about the games than the specs.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
The defense for Microsoft is just so strange. It's horribly apparent, too. There's no way that an unbiased thinking person could hold those opinions.
Fallout 3 would have been a completely different game on the ps2. Thats just a quick example off the top of my head.
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
I understand where you're trying to go with this post, but I would first state that such a person doesn't exist.
RedRedSuit
Member
Yes. There are plenty of examples. Something like Assassin's Creed would be quite terrible or just impossible in the previous generation. All the Bethesda games.
We're at the start of a new console generation, MS and Sony believe they can sell ten million consoles in the next few months. Those 10 million gamers laying down hundreds of dollars for the privilege of next gen gaming should get the facts and not be lied to by the media that there's a negligible difference in power between both consoles since you can hardly see the difference between 720p and 1080p. I can't think of branch of tech journalism where such outright lies are the norm.
It's just really unfortunate then that he decides to discuss that stuff right after the whole BF4 and CoD debacle.
So exactly which primordial aspects of Fallout 3's gameplay would have not been possible before?
The thing is, peole always talk about / expect enormous new possibilities. I just fail to see it. 10 times more RAM and processing power won't change anything. We're not talking about the move from 2D to 3D. This for instance, has caused major gameplay changes especially for action/adventure games and platformers.
Pristine_Condition
Member
So you are admitting that HE shifted the context of the news story and current debates he was addressing, not us?
OK...great.
Then what was your original complaint about context?
Are you mad that we aren't allowing him to just casually change the subject and present a "false choice" fallacy?
Well, dang us to heck for being meanies and not talking about what he wants us to talk about now. Dog-gone us for noticing that there's still that funny-looking man behind the curtain. Our bad for thinking "hey, maybe these are the droids we are looking for."
...
It's a false choice as presented by Sessler. You can notice and comment on power differences. You can notice that one system is not only more powerful, but $100 less expensive. And you can also want new experiences. In fact, it's more power that often makes truly new experiences possible.
The entire experience would not have been possible. Due to technical limitations, I'd bet that a ps2 fallout game would be top down. It's impossible to argue that the game design wouldn't be drastically different
googleplex
Member
Spot on.
Well how many first person open world games came out on the ps2?
You're having a different argument of what the focus of this thread is. No one questions that games are not just about resolutions.
The crux of the issue is that we have a title like Call of Duty, where there is a disparity between the next Gen consoles resolution. Previously, some( not all!) Game critics, would note that the disparity existed. Sometimes small. Sometimes large. And sometimes it also reflected on review scores and further in the way of editorials and advocating one platform over another. Nothing is wrong with this! Enjoy Skyrim? Get it for Xbox360. Enjoy RDR? Get the Xbox version. This is informative.
Adam Sessler is an example of where his previous statements fall in direct contradiction to his current dismissal of the resolution(and framerate). A more powerful machine at a lower cost would afford a better opportunity to developers to explore better AI, Physics or experience.
If I have to purchase a movie and my choice is between the $25 DVD and a $20 Blu-Ray. All content being the same, I would take the Blu-ray.
As for PCs, they are a different experience to consoles(that overlap) and don't reflect in this discussion except to muddle it.
NoMoreTrolls
Banned
You have my sword.
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