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Tripolygon · Jul 12, 2016

Qassim said:
I presume you mean 'aren't smart enough' and it has nothing to do with smarts. If the design of a game literally requires two tracked points, then how is a controller with one tracked point going to provide that?

Tell me how a game like Job Simulator doesn't have its game design changed to work on a controller. Please.

No i meant smart. Developers are smart enough to figure that out.

Well the game Job Simulator will launch with PS Move support as well as DS4 support and the game design will be the same. Control schemes will be different and DS4 inclusion does not take away from PS Move support.

Durante · Jul 12, 2016

Lord Error said:
Ah I see - that's what you meant. I'm not sure tbh. What happens if Move light ball gets obscured behind your other hand in VR for example? That seems like it could happen fairly easily in a two handed game. They probably have some way to handle that kind of scenario - or not, in which case the controls go weird in situations like that :\

That's what is usually called "occlusion" in tracking discussions, and the only way to deal with it is to do dead reckoning based on accelerometer data. That gets very unreliable very quickly (very quickly). Which is why you really want tracking from 2 distinct sources at least, but that's a different discussion.

jaypah said:
How would you play Space Pirate Trainer with a DS4? It's not a 360 degree game really but it does need motion controls.

Or Audioshield? It's one of the most popular VR games on Steam, and it would work without 360° tracking, but it certainly requires 2 tracked points.

Qassim · Jul 12, 2016

danhese007 said:
No i meant smart. Developers are smart enough to figure that out.

Well the game Job Simulator will launch with PS Move support as well as DS4 support and the game design will be the same. Control schemes will be different and DS4 inclusion does not take away from PS Move support.

How does the DS4 track both of your hands?

Also, as I said, it's still not about smarts. It's about limiting the ambitions and imaginations of developers - it's bad for game design.

Synth · Jul 12, 2016

danhese007 said:
Hmm, there's been a very popular VR system that currently has no motion controller on the market. I just can't recall the name of it.

And, would you look at that? It lacks various games as a direct result of not having those motion controllers.. Some will even be limited as a result of it not having the same 360 tracking abilities as Vive.. but sure, this wouldn't have affected the design of those Vive games in the first place if the Rift's baseline was a hard requirement to support.

Tripolygon · Jul 12, 2016

collige said:
The choice here is between Job Simulator devs releasing a game with a vastly inferior, bordering on broken controller mode or not releasing on PSVR at all.

Yea that choice is in your head.

Tripolygon · Jul 12, 2016

Qassim said:
How does the DS4 track both of your hands?

Is this a serious question? Use PS Move if you want to have both hands tracked, otherwise use DS4. Its that simple.

oneofthose · Jul 12, 2016

People go on about wii being a gimick, VR is a bigger gimick at least with the wii it showcased quality games, this so far is nothing but tech demos / experiences. Theres no real major title. Don't see this being worth $200 or w/e it is on top of the ps4. Especially when you need ps move to play some of the titles properly.

mckmas8808 · Jul 12, 2016

InsaneTiger said:
Rift comes with an Xbox controller so what is the big deal?

Support for multiple controllers is good.

This! Not sure how to see this any other way.

Synth · Jul 12, 2016

danhese007 said:
Is this a serious question? Use PS Move if you want to have both hands tracked, otherwise use DS4. Its that simple.

So, you can't design a game to require both of your hands tracked. Which is the point.

Tripolygon · Jul 12, 2016

Synth said:
And, would you look at that? It lacks various games as a direct result of not having those motion controllers.. Some will even be limited as a result of it not having the same 360 tracking abilities as Vive.. but sure, this wouldn't have affected the design of those Vive games in the first place if the Rift's baseline was a hard requirement to support.

And would you look at this PS4 has both kinds of controllers, developers can use both. They just have to provide an alternate control scheme for those using DS4.

Qassim · Jul 12, 2016

danhese007 said:
Is this a serious question? Use PS Move if you want to have both hands tracked, otherwise use DS4. Its that simple.

Oh so the DS4 does change the premise of the game then. Cool, glad you agree. Because you know, the premise of Job Simulator is to have your hands tracked in the world to interact with it.

See, I knew we'd agree eventually

Arulan · Jul 12, 2016

michaelius said:
I have zero interest in playing wii like games in VR

Is this supposed to be a snide remark?

The motion controls of the Wii have nothing in common with the tracked controllers of VR. One is based on abstractions to replace buttons (often shaking), with few exceptions, the other accurately tracks you hands and/or objects in 3D space. Is using your hands in real-life a gimmick? Shouldn't you be able to do the same in virtual reality?

It's fundamental to VR.

Durante · Jul 12, 2016

Of the 302 VR games currently listed on Steam, 177 require tracked motion controllers.

Qassim · Jul 12, 2016

InsaneTiger said:
Rift comes with an Xbox controller so what is the big deal?

Support for multiple controllers is good.

mckmas8808 said:
This! Not sure how to see this any other way.

Oculus doesn't require all games also support the Xbox controller. PSVR supporting both control schemes is a good thing, PSVR requiring both control schemes is not.

Tripolygon · Jul 12, 2016

Synth said:
So, you can't design a game to require both of your hands tracked. Which is the point.

No the point is you can develop games that require both hands tracked you just have to provide an alternate control scheme for DS4. Again, its all about consumer choice and uniformity since all PS4 has a motion tracked controller included.

GhostOfSparta305 · Jul 12, 2016

Daft Punk said:
Not everyone wants to play a VR game waving their arms around. Sony is right by giving consumers the choice. If you want to use motion controls, go ahead. However, if you get tired, you can still play with a DS4. Not seeing a problem.

Right, because that worked out so well for BioShock Infinite, Killzone 3, and other Move shooters...

Synth · Jul 12, 2016

danhese007 said:
And would you look at this PS4 has both kinds of controllers, developers can use both. They just have to provide an alternate control scheme for those using DS4.

They can use both, but they must use one. Those same devs could just provide an alternate control system to get the games released on Oculus store too... or an even more drastic alternative control system to get them release on non-VR platforms. They shouldn't have to though, because it limits what the game can potentially be.

danhese007 said:
No the point is you can develop games that require both hands tracked you just have to provide an alternate control scheme for DS4. Again, its all about consumer choice and uniformity since all PS4 has a motion tracked controller included.

Unless two DS4s is an option instead, then no you can't. If the alternate control allows the game to be played with only one tracked hand, then the game only requires one tracked hand.

LordRaptor · Jul 12, 2016

Arulan said:
Is this supposed to be a snide remark?

The motion controls of the Wii have nothing in common with the tracked controllers of VR. One is based on abstractions to replace buttons (often shaking), with few exceptions, the other accurately tracks you hands and/or objects in 3D space. Is using your hands in real-time a gimmick? Shouldn't you be able to do the same in virtual reality?

It's fundamental to VR.

They both offer naturalistic and intuitive interactions when implemented correctly.
I guess people hate that.

ShadowSoldier89 · Jul 12, 2016

There are Three main branches of VR game development

1) Cockpit games
These are fine. Cockpit games do well with a controller, especially when head tracking and aiming are separated such as in battlezone

2) Third Person Games
These are an interesting little aside popular on the rift. These do not suffer as you are watching a character that you are then controlling.

3) First Person Games
These are where this mandate sucks. With motion controllers being your only input you build up a game where you shift aiming and interacting based on proximity of the controllers independently in each hand. Once you require making these games support a regular controller you bring into the equation many things that a dev shouldn't have to think about. How do you aim, Right analog stick? Well thats way slower than a motion controller and aims differently. Oh our bow now needs a reticule. Oh now we cant use a two handed usage with the bow. Oh shit now that we are using the stick the game is too difficult as the user cant react fast enough. Ok what if we changed it so they aim by turning their head. Awe shit now its too jarring in frantic combat and users are getting neck soreness. Ok aim with the light bar on the controller. Shit now they are loosing tracking whenever the user twists the controller outside of the view of the camera. Ok we can start guesstimating their aiming with the gyro once the camera loses it but ah shit that is too inaccurate for VR.

And this is only one small example of game development questions that supporting a standard controller gets in the way of for example 3. There are countless other differences that would need to be accounted for.

A developer making a game that falls into category 3 should never be REQUIRED to support a standard controller as it will cause their design to suffer depending on the goals of the game.

danhese007 said:
No the point is you can develop games that require both hands tracked you just have to provide an alternate control scheme for DS4. Again, its all about consumer choice and uniformity since all PS4 has a motion tracked controller included.

The problem is that game design for some of these games WILL SUFFER as a consequence. Developers should have the choice to not support the DS4 if it doesnt make sense for their game

Tripolygon · Jul 12, 2016

Durante said:
Of the 302 VR games currently listed on Steam, 177 require tracked motion controllers.

Nothing is stopping all 302 games from coming to PS4 if the develpers want said games to come to PS4. PS4 has 3 tracked controller.

1. DS4
2. PS Move
3. PSVR Aim

Uhyve · Jul 12, 2016

mckmas8808 said:
This! Not sure how to see this any other way.

Hmmm... let's see. How about, when the Oculus motion controllers come out, Oculus owners will finally have access to motion controller only games, the PSVR however, will not if it keeps this limitation.

Formosa · Jul 12, 2016

Uhyve said:
I actually don't believe the quote. It doesn't make any sense, especially hearing people's impressions of Batman VR, it just wouldn't work without two motion controllers. Pretty much the entire point seemed like interacting with stuff with your hands (Piano playing, getting suited up, throwing batarangs, etc).

They're forcing developers to not choose one. Certain experiences would not be possible on the PSVR with this limitation (for example, see above).

killroy87 said:
That's not the issue. The issue is that now PSVR will never see games that can't be done with a controller. It will limit the kinds of experiences we see.

Well, some games will have better experience with the move controllers, if you want that experience, just buy and use move controllers. The experience will not be limited.

It's like any racing games we already have, if you want a better experience... buy and use a steering wheel. It's all players choice after all.

cakefoo · Jul 12, 2016

Blackleg-sanji1 said:
Yes only vive can help Vr yes Sony will kill it off.

No, just saying Vive nailed it with roomscale head and handtracking, and PSVR experiences will be compromised because of the DS4 mandate. If you have to resort to ad-hominem attacks and strawmen, I have nothing to say to you anymore.

Qassim · Jul 12, 2016

danhese007 said:
Nothing is stopping all 302 games from coming to PS4 if the develpers want said games to come to PS4. PS4 has 3 tracked controller.

1. DS4
2. PS Move
3. PSVR Aim

In many of those cases, it would be a different game if it had to work on the DS4. If the point of a game is to interact with two tracked points and then you take one of those away, then by definition the point of the game has changed.

I don't know you can argue against that.

Tain · Jul 12, 2016

Lord Error said:
I don't think the game would be that much worse one-handed as an option for people to play it who don't have two move controllers.

Given my experience with the horrible tracking limitations of the DS4's light bar in Battlezone, I'd say it would.

Blackleg-sanji1 · Jul 12, 2016

Seeing the thread and thinking about it...I just wanna enjoy some vr. I enjoy the time I have with my vive and I look forward to the different experiences of the psvr brings to the table. Personally I'm glad I can use the dualshock 4 for games if I choose too because sometimes I like to relax in vr sometimes I prefer the motion controls. I don't think by any stretch of the imagination that this takes anything away from psvr and personally having move only probably alienated alot of people who maybe just wanna use a controller. It'll be up to the devs whether they want to put their game on psvr so I won't speak on what's right or wrong there.

cakefoo said:
No, just saying Vive nailed it with roomscale head and handtracking, and PSVR experiences will be compromised because of the DS4 mandate. If you have to resort to ad-hominem attacks and strawmen, I have nothing to say to you anymore.

The person I quoted literally said that Sony was poisoning the well. Which is why i said what I said in snark context is key before quoting someone

Neuromancer · Jul 12, 2016

I have a Gear VR with a regular controller, and it's awesome. PSVR will do that, plus positional tracking on your head and the main controller, plus some games will support the Move controllers so that will be even more awesome. Yes games that are designed first and foremost for the Moves won't be as good with a DS4, but if you have Moves, it won't be an issue. Maybe some devs may be annoyed by the extra work, but then again, maybe they will be happy selling games to those who don't like the Moves or don't have them.

I'm really not seeing any downside to this.

Zalusithix · Jul 12, 2016

danhese007 said:
Nothing is stopping all 302 games from coming to PS4 if the develpers want said games to come to PS4. PS4 has 3 tracked controller.

1. DS4
2. PS Move
3. PSVR Aim

No, sorry. Some games simply can't be mapped to a standard controller in any remotely sane way. They'd have to radically alter the fundamental design of the game itself to comply with that mandate.

Tripolygon · Jul 12, 2016

Qassim said:
In many of those cases, it would be a different game if it had to work on the DS4. If the point of a game is to interact with two tracked points and then you take one of those away, then by definition the point of the game has changed.

I don't know you can argue against that.

Ask me this in a few months if the game i'm playing with a DS4 is Job Simulator. Ah wth i'll just answer now. YES.

Qassim · Jul 12, 2016

Neuromancer said:
I have a Gear VR with a regular controller, and it's awesome. PSVR will do that, plus positional tracking on your head and the main controller, plus some games will support the Move controllers so that will be even more awesome. Yes games that are designed first and foremost for the Moves won't be as good with a DS4, but if you have Moves, it won't be an issue. Maybe some devs may be annoyed by the extra work, but then again, maybe they will be happy selling games to those who don't like the Moves or don't have them.

I'm really not seeing any downside to this.

You can't imagine any situation where a developer might have an idea which absolutely requires two tracked controllers and to change that would be compromise on that vision?

Formosa · Jul 12, 2016

Synth said:
So, you can't design a game to require both of your hands tracked. Which is the point.

Qassim said:
Oh so the DS4 does change the premise of the game then. Cool, glad you agree. Because you know, the premise of Job Simulator is to have your hands tracked in the world to interact with it.

See, I knew we'd agree eventually

Why can't dev design games that requires both hands to be tracked? Players can just use the move controllers instead of a DS4. It's up to what the player what to use.

Synth · Jul 12, 2016

Neuromancer said:
Maybe some devs may be annoyed by the extra work, but then again, maybe they will be happy selling games to those who don't like the Moves or don't have them.

Then why would they need to be mandated to support the DS4? They should just be adding support for it in their own best interests. If they would choose not to, then there's a reason for it.

TimeEffect · Jul 12, 2016

This has me excited for Rigs being able to survive and hopefully break out like Rocket Leauge (provided it's as fun/competitive)

firelogic · Jul 12, 2016

Complain complain. That's all I ever see. If Sony said Move controllers are mandatory and DS4 will only work for some titles, people would be up in arms that Sony is forcing extra peripherals on us when we have perfectly functioning DS4s. So they say, hey, you don't need to buy Move controllers. you can play all VR games with the DS4 which you already own! "BOOOOOOOOOOO SONY!!!"

Durante · Jul 12, 2016

Formosa said:
Why can't dev design games that requires both hands to be tracked? Players can just use the move controllers instead of a DS4. It's up to what the player what to use.

That's the whole point of this thread: apparently (as I said, I still don't believe it), developers can not design a game which requires both hands to be tracked -- because they need to design a game which can be played using a DS4 controller.

Blackleg-sanji1 · Jul 12, 2016

TimeEffect said:
This has me excited for Rigs being able to survive and hopefully break out like Rocket Leauge (provided it's as fun/competitive)

I wasn't touching rigs with the move anyway. Same for ace combat

FyreWulff · Jul 12, 2016

danhese007 said:
No the point is you can develop games that require both hands tracked you just have to provide an alternate control scheme for DS4. Again, its all about consumer choice and uniformity since all PS4 has a motion tracked controller included.

It isn't consumer choice. It's game design by corporate accountant edict.

The Wii proved requiring optional controllers wasn't an obstacle if the game itself made it worth it. At one point the Balance Board itself had a higher install base than the PS3.

Neuromancer · Jul 12, 2016

Durante said:
Of the 302 VR games currently listed on Steam, 177 require tracked motion controllers.

Of all the VR games currently available on the Oculus Rift store, almost all of them use a gamepad. I'm not really seeing your point here, these are different platforms.

Kaako · Jul 12, 2016

I wish Sony would've bite the bullet and bundled move controllers with every single PSVR sold by default.

Cartman86 · Jul 12, 2016

Neuromancer said:
I have a Gear VR with a regular controller, and it's awesome. PSVR will do that, plus positional tracking on your head and the main controller, plus some games will support the Move controllers so that will be even more awesome. Yes games that are designed first and foremost for the Moves won't be as good with a DS4, but if you have Moves, it won't be an issue. Maybe some devs may be annoyed by the extra work, but then again, maybe they will be happy selling games to those who don't like the Moves or don't have them.

I'm really not seeing any downside to this.

What is the point in doing extra work for a broken control method that will just get negative reviews and complaints from customers? This is the kind of useless micromanage shit that Microsoft got nailed for in the 360 gen.

Synth · Jul 12, 2016

Formosa said:
Why can't dev design games that requires both hands to be tracked? Players can just use the move controllers instead of a DS4. It's up to what the player what to use.

Because the game must be playable still when only one is. I'm not sure if people are simply forgetting what the word "require" means. If something is required, then it's not just an option. Just as a requirement to support DS4 is not "an option" to for developers.

To draw a very simple parallel. Do you think a requirement to make all games on a console playable those owning a joypad with a single analog stick would have no affect on the design of the games for that console.. even if a dual-analog controller were available for additional purchase?

Blackleg-sanji1 · Jul 12, 2016

Kaako said:
I wish Sony would've bite the bullet and bundled move controllers with every single PSVR sold by default.

They got backlash for only having that bundle for pre order the first time actually.

LordRaptor · Jul 12, 2016

firelogic said:
Complain complain. That's all I ever see. If Sony said Move controllers are mandatory and DS4 will only work for some titles, people would be up in arms that Sony is forcing extra peripherals on us when we have perfectly functioning DS4s. So they say, hey, you don't need to buy Move controllers. you can play all VR games with the DS4 which you already own! "BOOOOOOOOOOO SONY!!!"

This argument makes less sense when you're talking about games that require the purchase of at least 2 additional peripherals in the first place though.

Durante · Jul 12, 2016

Neuromancer said:
Of all the VR games currently available on the Oculus Rift store, almost all of them use a gamepad. I'm not really seeing your point here, these are different platforms.

Do you think once Touch is launched that 100% of all games on the Oculus store will support controller input? If yes, then well, you are wrong.

If not, then why do you think that won't be the case? That's the same reasoning as to why such a mandate cuts down the available design space for developers.

Zalusithix · Jul 12, 2016

Neuromancer said:
Of all the VR games currently available on the Oculus Rift store, almost all of them use a gamepad. I'm not really seeing your point here, these are different platforms.

That wont be the case when Touch is available. Oculus isn't as silly as to mandate that every game in the future has to use the packaged XBO controller to go on sale in their store.

And sure, they're different platforms. That doesn't mean that any choice is validated just by virtue of being a different platform.

Formosa · Jul 12, 2016

Durante said:
That's the whole point of this thread: apparently (as I said, I still don't believe it), developers can not design a game which requires both hands to be tracked -- because they need to design a game which can be played using a DS4 controller.

Here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_Move_games

There are tons of PS Move games already. Adding a playable DS4 option will not hurt.

DangerMouse · Jul 12, 2016

Blackleg-sanji1 said:
They got backlash for only having that bundle for pre order the first time actually.

That's mainly because a lot of people already have Moves (and the PS4 camera), not because they don't want Move-based VR games.

Tain · Jul 12, 2016

Formosa said:
Here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_Move_games

There are tons of PS Move games already. Adding a playable DS4 option will not hurt.

But adding a playable DS4 option is very close to a waste of time. It kind of will hurt, depending on how polished the DS4 options are expected to be.

Blackleg-sanji1 · Jul 12, 2016

DangerMouse said:
That's mainly because a lot of people already have Moves, not because they don't want Move-based VR games.

No I was just telling him why they didn't only Have that bundle

ShadowSoldier89 · Jul 12, 2016

Formosa said:
Here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_Move_games

There are tons of PS Move games already. Adding a playable DS4 option will not hurt.

but it will hurt, you have to completely design the game differently at a base level.

PSVR games should be built for whichever control scheme makes sense for that game. If it is possible and makes sense then support standard controller + move, but that doesnt always make sense and it should not be forced onto developers.

I went into detail on how one example (bow shooting) would suffer if it tried to support both. read my last post. there are a myriad of other development challenges that would cause this.

Requiring all games to support DS4 makes as little sense as requiring all games to support move. A game like Battlezone just would not work right with move, same as a game like job simulator or holopoint making no sense with a DS4

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