thanks, that was insightful.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
GI Biz: A developer sees model costs double for Durango sequel to Xbox 360 title
- Thread starter subversus
- Start date
thanks, that was insightful.
Mr. B Natural
Member
And that takes a shit ton of time. You used to just have to do that with characters, but now you have to do it with everything. And "everything" is getting more demanding. No longer can a room be empty. No longer can a city be a series of rectangles or the backdrop a drawing, etc. Then you have to apply physics, fx, animate it (no longer can it just sit there), etc. And, it needs MORE detail, needs more effort, expectations demand it.
And when expectations are high, critiques are harsh. Decent isn't good enough. Tweak it. Tweak it. Tweak it.
New, unique IP with a solely (or mostly) single player focus.
Mr. B Natural
Member
Tools are struggling to keep up and to automate things. That is definitely part of the problem. Thank god for Zbrush, although even that program has its problems.
Word Processing comes to mind for a good comparison. A lot of word processor programs have gotten bloated with "efficient" tools. And, really, not a single word processor has made a big impact on how a writer does his or her work for a very very long time. And the improvements, if you're willing to deal with them, are minimal and aren't keeping up with the increased demand.
With the increases is lighting effects, bumpmapping effects etc, developers can make fairly empty rooms look way more realistic. Physics are going to get the biggest push with next-gen. Cloth physics especially. I expect to see this shown off in many tech demos over the coming months.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
This is BS we already model cinematic models for normal map use now. The tools for high poly modeling are so much better than they used to be. Shit it takes longer to make quake type models sometimes due to all the hand painting lol. Once you sculpt a high poly model you can extract tons of info from that you can use on lower poly models.
This stuff happens also this gen already.
Can't you just have generic libraries of filler content? How many filing cabinets does the industry need to create from scratch? Beds, chairs, etc. I'd imagine you could even have built in physics packages too for common things. Don't see why this couldn't extend to animations or other things.
Is this done already?
gaming_noob
Member
No one's stopping any developers from doing just that with powerful hardware.
No, you don't have to normal map everything. You're a bit confused.
Mr. B Natural
Member
Yes, and it's expensive. It ALWAYS happened in games...gonna combine two thought in one below.
Yes, that is done already, but somebody still has to make the filler content (and more of it to be convincing). Of course you see repeated assets all the time in games but somebody had to make that repeatable content and, because gamers have ADD, you have to change the setting all the time in your game. That means, more or less, more assets repeatable or not.
Repeatable assets existed since pong. The difference is pong needed to only repeat the paddle, uncharted, on the other hand, required a world of art to be repeated. Next gen it will need more detailed, more assets, etc to be convincing and justify its purchase and its existence. That's what happened from the NES to Snes. Xbox to Xbox 360 to NextBox to BestBox.
Mr. B Natural
Member
I work in this industry. I'm not confused.
This sort of detail for world art was new to current gen
You think Zbrush 4R2's updates were some wild coincidence? They're appeasing a higher demand for nonorganic zbrush modeling.
Very few models in any AAA game you play are not normal mapped (and those are typically alphaed grass and the like/things that are intentionally sterile and flat) and that trend will not decrease for next gen. Realism costs money. Realism costs time. Detail is detail. It doesn't make itself and it requires normal mapping considering multi-million poly models are not an option. And, if it was an option, it would reduce time on the transfer process, but not so much on the production. A multi-million poly model is hard to manage, but a 1024 texture not so much, so time saved converting and transfering the conversion would more likely be lost on that end.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Mr. B Natural said:
This.
People will expect more detail to be exposed overall, and as the reality is that no hardware offers limitless potential, its just a higher ceiling to bump up against.
Regarding Wyeth's post, ZBrush has been used for a long, long time - I saw it used on projects as far back as 2004 and even then it wasn't a new idea. There are no "magic bullets" because the more detail you have, the more detail needs to be checked and validated.
If all you care about is frame-rate and resolution, you don't need a new system or new code, all you need is a faster GPU.
And yet they never do it. At the start of a new gen we get more polys and particle effects nd textures, with the same old framrate, no aa ,dithering, rubbish
I remember very similar doom and gloom/video game crash predictions based on increased budgets for this generation. Ad far as I know video games did not crash this generation.
And, yes, you can point to developer closures this generation as evidence but its nothing new really. Video game developers have been closing down from generation to generation ever since the NES was "next gen".
Its like the Law of the Jungle("survival of the fittest") doesnt apply to the video game industry. If a developer constantly puts out crap that sells badly then why is it a surprise that they get closed down?
So, is the video game industry going to crash because all of the bad developers had to close down and there is no shovelware to fill out the release schedule inbetween major releases?
And, yes, you can point to developer closures this generation as evidence but its nothing new really. Video game developers have been closing down from generation to generation ever since the NES was "next gen".
Its like the Law of the Jungle("survival of the fittest") doesnt apply to the video game industry. If a developer constantly puts out crap that sells badly then why is it a surprise that they get closed down?
So, is the video game industry going to crash because all of the bad developers had to close down and there is no shovelware to fill out the release schedule inbetween major releases?
dragonelite
Member
How about more ram and a new cpu.
You need to do more draw calls which the cpu makes. You need to store those higher res backbuffers.
Hell the cpu need to works twice as fast as also. Needs to process input and calculate everything at a 60hz instead of 30hz.
DragonSworne
Banned
This rumor is BS by the way.
No next gen game in development is at the stages where models will be created. Every game is still in conception/elabartion phase.
No next gen game in development is at the stages where models will be created. Every game is still in conception/elabartion phase.
dragonelite
Member
you're a dev?
Who knows from what we know they could have had concepts from last gen that are only with next gen possible. Or they already started last year or just pushed projects that were to come out this gen to next gen.
Happy-Bunny
Banned
On the other hand programmers might have an easier life.
Absolutely false.
#1
Polygon budget will double, not money budget
#2
Higher polygon budget makes models easier to make, not harder (at least to start, when detail gets higher and higher like in CG, then you are looking at rapid increase in cost)
#3
There will be less screwing around when polygon budgets shift therefore decreasing costs
I bet everyone has seen how over time... For game screens they see wonderfully modeled details, like buckles and necklaces which then later becomes a much lower poly model and eventually ends up as a texture
Polygon budget will double, not money budget
#2
Higher polygon budget makes models easier to make, not harder (at least to start, when detail gets higher and higher like in CG, then you are looking at rapid increase in cost)
#3
There will be less screwing around when polygon budgets shift therefore decreasing costs
I bet everyone has seen how over time... For game screens they see wonderfully modeled details, like buckles and necklaces which then later becomes a much lower poly model and eventually ends up as a texture
Quicksilver4648
Member
My response to this: Not every game has to be bleeding edge in visuals. If the indie scene has shown one thing, there is certainly a market for more artistically stylized games.
Aizu_Itsuko
Member
I'm not as pleased as you Tom. 2x isn't enough for me. I want a full generational leap and that means 10x. I refuse to buy any game calling itself AAAA unless I know they spent at least 600 million on it.
Still waiting for Shenmue 3 then eh!
This sounds like bs to me. Devs already sculpt half a million+ poly models in their modeling software of choice and then make the in game models. This will become a non-issue though once model decimation algorithms improve.
I still think the biggest issue that game development faces is how the projects are managed.
I still think the biggest issue that game development faces is how the projects are managed.
Warm Machine
Member
Yup. Any production manager who is being told that everything is going to be more expensive knows nothing about what the artists actually do and is simpy being suckered.
For characters, ZBrush/Mudbox has topped creation out for the next forever. Middleware all over the place is scaleable to accomodate more power with some sliders. Most textures are photosourced and cameras/photoshop support resolutions far beyond next gen.
Allonym
There should be more tampons in gaming
Can anyone explain why PC development is so much cheaper than console development when PC titles like The Witcher 2 are created by tremendously smaller studios with much lower budgets but they achieve much grander results than are currently able to be done on consoles? Also considering the cards available now will still over power the gpuin next gen machines...this makes no sense at all to me? What makes console dev cycles so expensive and special?
Every game isn't AAA and normal mapping is far from the only way of detailing models. What part of this industry do you work in?
dragonelite
Member
Region Cd project red is based in poland so i think salary is lower there.
I like 'Orbango'
I find the original dev comments the articles is based on naive at best, unless they're a highly specialised single architecture outfit like, say, Polyphony. Most devs targeting PC or, well, anyone who does proper art direction would already have higher res/poly assets unless they've been really focussing on one single niche; and even then there shouldn't be too much of a resolution jump as the one from SD to HD (which caused all the delays for Polyphony and their HD asset modelling.)
Not that I'm duming on Polyphony too much, they've been champs in the past and I generally think what they do is great, but Turn 10 showed you can get high quality assets done in a timely manner.
clutch.as.it.gets.
Member
Thanks.
Epic and Crytek said pretty much the same. With better hardware they would even speed up (time needed = money needed). They wouldn`t need to spend lots of time compressing textures (they are already created in high quality) and trying to still make them look good, wouldn`t have to creat three/four different low poly/res models from the same high res model, doesn`t have to manage geometrie that much, etc. ... all those steps could be by-passed with much improved hardware.
infinityBCRT
Member
Not sure if this would be true for every developer. From what I've heard about the development of art assets, some artists create hi-res models for CG/promotion and then remove polys to bring it down to the poly budget allowed for gameplay. Creating higher poly gameplay models this way would take less work if anything.
Pay your staff a fraction of what they could make anywhere else.
DragonSworne
Banned
I seriously think GI was fed BS information to get rid of leakers within companies.
So sad GI can't see how obviously retarded these quotes are.
So sad GI can't see how obviously retarded these quotes are.
Barkley's Justice
Member
stop making such big budget games
dacuk
Member
Done before:
To be fair, the later 16-bit and 32-bit era was $30-$50 games on $10-$40 slabs of silicon.
Last Hearth
Member
So the unsustainable model get's more unsustainable. Great.
dacuk
Member
Nintendo will buy them at the end
Anuxinamoon
Shaper Divine
If one is afraid of text, feel free to skip.
TL;DR. Artists are generally always wanting to do better than their last project. They always try to push push push. You give them extra resources they will take it, fill it and demand more. That's just how we are. Milk every drop.
Each company has different ways and pipelines for making assets. Figuring out a good pipeline to get a character from the concept phase to in game and working is crazy long.
I'll give you a basic pipeline from start to finish.
Concept Phase, pretty self explanatory. Batch of thumbs and designs till its whittled down to one core design.
Modeller gets that, talks to rigger/animator if there is any special needs this character might require.
Character modeller models a low poly base mesh. Passes this off to the rigger as a proxy. (if the rigger requests this for a special case)
Character Modeller then takes the base mesh to a high poly stage. This may require a re-topology stage during this (usually if they pre-planned their base mesh well or the mesh isn't very complex this isn't required). Where the they reconstruct a new base mesh with better poly flow to create a cleaner high poly.
Then character modeller gets the high checked off.
Character modeller then does a final re-topology of his high poly asset to a lower poly in game version. This is always LOD0 (highest polygon version) obviously. (this job can be palmed off to a specific artist who only handles retopologising, UV unwrapping and baking)
NB: This is the part where they will be doubling their polygon count for next gen machines.
Then comes the UV unwrapping of the low poly game mesh and packing of UV's
NB: This can take a little longer if you have more polygons to deal with. But its not so bad these days with the tools available.
Then you need your different bakes from your high poly source mesh. This can be quite a complex process if there are lots of fiddly overlapping objects on the character. Things need to be pulled apart and baked separately. Usually two maps will be baked. The normal Map and the Ambient Occlusion (AO)
You can get more like displacement, height and cavity maps baked if needed.
Then you go from there onto the texture phase. This can be handed over to a specific texture artist.
NB: This is where you may get higher texture budgets. Painting a higher res texture takes more time. Also if more maps are needed for shader tricks, then more time is spent making special case textures.
After that its setting up all the sharers for the character. Depending on your shader pipeline (something that is worked together between tech artist/FX artist and code)
Then once this has been done the rigger then gets the model.
NB: Shader complexity may increase for the artist to hook up. But this is all dependant on the specific shader pipeline of your engine.
The character modeller then makes the needed LOD's for that character.
The rigger or Tech character artist, sets up all the final rigs and controls. Usually sets up the collision and all the technical gizmos that are needed like Sockets and code controls.
NB: Next gen machines may allow more bones per chunk. So this may add more time in the rigging phase to set up.
Then this is passed over to the animator for animation. Blends, animations and all that.
Then the animations need to be hooked up to the game design and code. So we can say when SPACE BAR is pressed, character plays Jump animation. ect ect.
NB: With more bones per chunk, Animators may need to spend longer amounts of time animating (Yes there is mo-cap which has its own stupid crap to deal with. cleaning up keyframes.. bleh. Also it can't be used for lets say, a crazy squid monster of doom). Though I am not an animator, so I'm only talking from observation.)
Then the character is finally in the game.
Wow finally its in the game! Oh shit... what happens when, for example, you show this to the publisher and he decides you character needs to wear a cloak? Then you have to dismantle the pipeline back to the modelling phase to add the cloak. the rigger/character tech artist then needs to re bake weights and add the new bones and re rig the bastard. Then the animator needs to add all these cloak animations to his existing animations.
One fuckup or one change can bring the whole pipeline to its knees. The more complex it is the harder the pipeline crashes.
Do this times X number of characters in a game. It can add up.
Now environments that's a different story. You usually only need to do up to the collision part. (Unless you had to make a complex prop with animation of course) We need to make collision meshes (soooo boring) and try to find new ways of saving drawcalls while adding more to a scene. Environments of course need a variety of shaders for different materials and different shaders on the one object also means more drawcalls. For example a tree will need two shaders because wood behaves differently than leaves. Its a discipline quite different from characters but takes just as long because the basic process is the same with the baking and the source models.
NB: Artists are generally always wanting to do better than their last project. They always try to push push push. You give them extra resources they will take it, fill it and demand more. That's just how we are. Milk every drop. If a frame rate is shitty in a game its because the artists pushed too hard expecting code to keep up.
For reference I have been both a character and environment artist for a next gen single player game utilising unreal engine 3 and also a next gen MMO. The pipeline I described was what I used when making characters for the single player unreal3 game.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
If one is afraid of text, feel free to skip.
TL;DR. Artists are generally always wanting to do better than their last project. They always try to push push push. You give them extra resources they will take it, fill it and demand more. That's just how we are. Milk every drop.
Each company has different ways and pipelines for making assets. Figuring out a good pipeline to get a character from the concept phase to in game and working is crazy long.
I'll give you a basic pipeline from start to finish.
Concept Phase, pretty self explanatory. Batch of thumbs and designs till its whittled down to one core design.
Modeller gets that, talks to rigger/animator if there is any special needs this character might require.
Character modeller models a low poly base mesh. Passes this off to the rigger as a proxy. (if the rigger requests this for a special case)
Character Modeller then takes the base mesh to a high poly stage. This may require a re-topology stage during this (usually if they pre-planned their base mesh well or the mesh isn't very complex this isn't required). Where the they reconstruct a new base mesh with better poly flow to create a cleaner high poly.
Then character modeller gets the high checked off.
Character modeller then does a final re-topology of his high poly asset to a lower poly in game version. This is always LOD0 (highest polygon version) obviously. (this job can be palmed off to a specific artist who only handles retopologising, UV unwrapping and baking)
NB: This is the part where they will be doubling their polygon count for next gen machines.
Then comes the UV unwrapping of the low poly game mesh and packing of UV's
NB: This can take a little longer if you have more polygons to deal with. But its not so bad these days with the tools available.
Then you need your different bakes from your high poly source mesh. This can be quite a complex process if there are lots of fiddly overlapping objects on the character. Things need to be pulled apart and baked separately. Usually two maps will be baked. The normal Map and the Ambient Occlusion (AO)
You can get more like displacement, height and cavity maps baked if needed.
Then you go from there onto the texture phase. This can be handed over to a specific texture artist.
NB: This is where you may get higher texture budgets. Painting a higher res texture takes more time. Also if more maps are needed for shader tricks, then more time is spent making special case textures.
After that its setting up all the sharers for the character. Depending on your shader pipeline (something that is worked together between tech artist/FX artist and code)
Then once this has been done the rigger then gets the model.
NB: Shader complexity may increase for the artist to hook up. But this is all dependant on the specific shader pipeline of your engine.
The character modeller then makes the needed LOD's for that character.
The rigger or Tech character artist, sets up all the final rigs and controls. Usually sets up the collision and all the technical gizmos that are needed like Sockets and code controls.
NB: Next gen machines may allow more bones per chunk. So this may add more time in the rigging phase to set up.
Then this is passed over to the animator for animation. Blends, animations and all that.
Then the animations need to be hooked up to the game design and code. So we can say when SPACE BAR is pressed, character plays Jump animation. ect ect.
NB: With more bones per chunk, Animators may need to spend longer amounts of time animating (Yes there is mo-cap which has its own stupid crap to deal with. cleaning up keyframes.. bleh. Also it can't be used for lets say, a crazy squid monster of doom). Though I am not an animator, so I'm only talking from observation.)
Then the character is finally in the game.
Wow finally its in the game! Oh shit... what happens when, for example, you show this to the publisher and he decides you character needs to wear a cloak? Then you have to dismantle the pipeline back to the modelling phase to add the cloak. the rigger/character tech artist then needs to re bake weights and add the new bones and re rig the bastard. Then the animator needs to add all these cloak animations to his existing animations.
One fuckup or one change can bring the whole pipeline to its knees. The more complex it is the harder the pipeline crashes.
Do this times X number of characters in a game. It can add up.
Now environments that's a different story. You usually only need to do up to the collision part. (Unless you had to make a complex prop with animation of course) We need to make collision meshes (soooo boring) and try to find new ways of saving drawcalls while adding more to a scene. Environments of course need a variety of shaders for different materials and different shaders on the one object also means more drawcalls. For example a tree will need two shaders because wood behaves differently than leaves. Its a discipline quite different from characters but takes just as long because the basic process is the same with the baking and the source models.
NB: Artists are generally always wanting to do better than their last project. They always try to push push push. You give them extra resources they will take it, fill it and demand more. That's just how we are. Milk every drop. If a frame rate is shitty in a game its because the artists pushed too hard expecting code to keep up.
For reference I have been both a character and environment artist for a next gen single player game utilising unreal engine 3 and also a next gen MMO. The pipeline I described was what I used when making characters for the single player unreal3 game.
One of the greatest and most informative posts Ive read in my four years on GAF. Thank you Anux.
Anuxinamoon
Shaper Divine
No worries
Similar threads
- Poll