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gofreak · Feb 23, 2013

Interesting interview that was posted yesterday. Not every outlet got a one-on-one interview with Yoshida but The Guardian snagged one.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2013/feb/22/ps4-shuhei-yoshida-interview?CMP=twt_fd

edit - oops, posted slightly early accidentally! Was trying to add in the bit about one subscription to the title, but hit enter...perhaps a mod could help tidy up the title a wee bit. It was supposed to say something more like: Yoshida on Gaikai - 'our dream' to offer 1000s of games 'with one subscription'

But here's the gaikai quote:

On that subject, I really expected you to announce a "Spotify for games"-type service, allowing gamers to sign up and pay a monthly fee to access as many titles as they like. Is that something we can look forward to?

As more and more services and contents become available digitally, we'll have more of an option to create attractive packages. So hypothetically we can look at different models – like a cable TV company. We could have gold, silver or platinum levels of membership, something like that. We can do subscription services when we have more content – especially now that we have the Gaikai technology available. With one subscription you have access to thousands of games – that's our dream.

Some pundits say that consoles are dead or dying, that there's no need for dedicated games machines when we have smart TVs and tablets. How do you answer that?
They need headlines! And they want us to say "no, consoles are important" so they can write more stories! Seriously, unless we show something unique and amazing, consumers won't be interested in dedicated hardware because they can play on devices they already own. So if the experience on PS4 is not greater than tablet, why bother? It's our responsibility to provide that, with the hardware and system features as well as game development. The game experience is not just playing, it's talking about games, it's watching other people play - that's all part of the enjoyment and we wanted to make that easier. It's like Media Molecule said – they want to make creativity easy for everyone. well, in the same way, we want to make sharing great moments of gameplay easier.

He gives a bit more detail on progressive download also - sounds like it actually does require some developer guidance on the game side. Hopefully it won't be too intrusive:

This whole idea of removing the barriers to content seems to be a vital one. People can just switch on a TV and watch a programme, but deciding to play a game can be an arduous process of finding it, downloading it, downloading updates … Do you think that can all be consigned to the past?

Absolutely. Yes. I find myself spending more time playing Vita games and I think part of the reason for that is it's immediate. I can stop at any time without quitting and it's instantaneous to start again. I don't have to quit out or reboot. It's wonderful. That's one part of immediacy – the other is waiting for downloads. That's ridiculous, that's crazy! We want to get out of this madness with PlayStation 4. The games are big, they're 50GB; download isn't instantaneous. So we're making purchase available from any device, so when you're at work, you can spend a couple of moments looking at PlayStation Store and choosing a game, and straight away it starts to download at home. It may take a couple of hours but that's okay because you're still at work.

Also, similarly to progressive download on some movie services, you don't have to wait for all the data to download before you start playing. Once you have the minimum amount of data downloaded you can begin the game, and while you play, the remaining data downloads. It takes some engineering input from developers so we're talking to the community. We're evangelising it.

Corto · Feb 23, 2013

If done right this can be the golden goose to Sony. An all-you-can-eat subscription plan at a reasonable enough price will sell like hotcakes.

Torraz · Feb 23, 2013

Let's hope that this 'dream' gets properly realized.

Zeal · Feb 23, 2013

If this really works as intended, I predict this is the future of gaming. Period.

Everything will go streaming.

Boss Man · Feb 23, 2013

This will be a big deal, but it probably won't be in its 'true form' until about halfway through the generation.

It'll be one of those things we look back on in five years and talk about how much the platform evolved. Kind of like PSN/PS+.

I'm so pumped about the way PS4 looks as a system, the features they showed off blew my mind. PS4 just made XBLG look last-gen, which I honestly did not expect Sony to pull off. Now it's MS' turn though, and I fully expect them to have something even more advanced.

Aquamarine · Feb 23, 2013

Zeal said:
If this really works as intended, I predict this is the future of gaming. Period.

Everything will go streaming.

I assume PS5 is going to be a Netflix-style service where everything is released exclusively on the cloud, and people can tap into it from any device.

LeadenStride · Feb 23, 2013

I know people love this, but if it eventually kills physical media, it's rather a nightmare for me.

gofreak · Feb 23, 2013

Fancy Corndog said:
This will be a big deal, but it probably won't be in its 'true form' until about halfway through the generation.

This comment is extremely aspirational. I'm sure Yoshida does not know at this stage what kind of business models they'll have for their cloud service. But I'm sure he has some influence and I'm glad he's thinking along the lines of subscriptions, or tiers of subscriptions, for unfettered access to broader selections of content.

Tyrone_Biggums · Feb 23, 2013

I just don't see the infrastructure being there on a wholesale level to make this Gaikai model work in the current climate. With the likely costs associated to institute a streaming service across all markets with the graphical fidelity of a PS4 game, lag free, it just doesn't seem financially feasible.

Maybe when the US and others actually seriously invest in increased bandwidth models across the board.

Just spitballing here.

Boss Man · Feb 23, 2013

gofreak said:
This comment is extremely aspirational. I'm sure Yoshida does not know at this stage what kind of business models they'll have for their cloud service. But I'm sure he has some influence and I'm glad he's thinking along the lines of subscriptions, or tiers of subscriptions, for unfettered access to broader selections of content.

I think they'll get it figured out sooner than people are expecting. This is their new Blu-ray, and Gaikai is there just to get this working. I think it will be there in something like "late alpha" form by launch.

Tyrone_Biggums said:
Maybe when the US and others actually seriously invest in increased bandwidth models across the board.

And this is another point that I think Sony will win on, because I think Internet connections in the U.S. will finally start to look different this console generation.

aliencowz7 · Feb 23, 2013

I would pay a rather sizable monthly fee for an optional subscription that gives me unlimited access to ps1-ps3 games, along with still spending hundreds of dollars a month on next gen games.

Get it working properly and my wallet is yours sony.

Goro Majima · Feb 23, 2013

If it was like $100 a month like I pay for cable (which I use far less than games)?

Heck yeah.

Manmademan · Feb 23, 2013

Aquamarine said:
I assume PS5 is going to be a Netflix-style service where everything is released exclusively on the cloud, and people can tap into it from any device.

Ps5? they're already targeting this for PS4.

not exclusively though- internet connections in the US, EU, AU, etc aren't nearly mature enough to make it viable. Physical will be with us for a long time, if for no other reason than collectors editions make publishers a mint.

If it was like $100 a month like I pay for cable (which I use far less than games)?

let's not get crazy now. $100 is usually the charge for internet AND cable tv service. tv by itself can be had for 30 or 40 dollars. That's probably more reasonable.

The Lamp · Feb 23, 2013

These are nice ideas but you have to make sure to make them HAPPEN. I remember so many promises with the PS3, that PS1 and PS2 catalog could be available online too. Well 6 years later the selection is kind of slim pickings. Does the playstation store even work on phones yet? Hasn't that been a goal of Sony's for years? I'm not sure. I know that the playstation store right now is slow

tl:dr stop dreaming Sony, and start achieving.

gofreak · Feb 23, 2013

Tyrone_Biggums said:
I just don't see the infrastructure being there on a wholesale level to make this Gaikai model work in the current climate. With the likely costs associated to institute a streaming service across all markets with the graphical fidelity of a PS4 game, lag free, it just doesn't seem financially feasible.

A couple of things to say about this:

First, they're talking right now about PS1/PS3/PS3 software on their cloud service.

Second, the infrastructural requirements on the consumer end would be the same for PS4 software as PS3, PS2, PS1. It's a video stream in the end. The richer fidelity of PS4 games would cost on the backend, but if as a consumer you have the local infrastructure to play PS1 or PS2 or PS3 games well off the cloud, you'd be able to play PS4 games well off the cloud too. But like I say, PS4 games haven't been name-checked in relation to this service...yet.

Manmademan · Feb 23, 2013

The Lamp said:
These are nice ideas but you have to make sure to make them HAPPEN. I remember so many promises with the PS3, that PS1 and PS2 catalog could be available online too. Well 6 years later the selection is kind of slim pickings. Does the playstation store even work on phones yet? Hasn't that been a goal of Sony's for years? I'm not sure. I know that the playstation store right now is slow

tl:dr stop dreaming Sony, and start achieving.

it works via standard web browser. i dunno about phones, but I don't see why not.

Second, the infrastructural requirements on the consumer end would be the same for PS4 software as PS3, PS2, PS1. It's a video stream in the end. The richer fidelity of PS4 games would cost on the backend, but if as a consumer you have the local infrastructure to play PS1 or PS2 or PS3 games well off the cloud, you'd be able to play PS4 games well off the cloud too. But like I say, PS4 games haven't been name-checked in relation to this service...yet.

Ps1, 2, and 3 games have (more or less) run their course in the market. They've made what they're going to make via retail, outside of certain very specific exceptions like FFVII selling 3 million copies or whatever on PSN.

PS4 titles though need to make their money back up front, and the streaming model isn't going to be effective here. It's certainly possible to do- sony does plan to enable PS4 streaming to all vitas using this tech, but you'll need to own the retail copy first.

H_Prestige · Feb 23, 2013

Zeal said:
If this really works as intended, I predict this is the future of gaming. Period.

Everything will go streaming.

Hopefully the ps4 bombs so this doesn't become the future. Streaming is garbage. Always was, always will be.

Boss Man · Feb 23, 2013

I'd also like to add that I don't think it will matter much if they don't completely turn around their marketing performance in the U.S.

I think they've shown over the past few weeks that they're fully aware of that, though.

H_Prestige said:
Hopefully the ps4 bombs so this doesn't become the future. Streaming is garbage. Always was, always will be.

This is the worst post I've ever seen you make. Streaming will be a 'background word' by the end of the decade, it will be nothing more than technical jargon for the mechanism through which you receive all of your content. Students will learn about it in their networking classes, and the general public won't even notice it's going on.

PG2G · Feb 23, 2013

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how the content owners get paid on services on Netflix and Spotify? Do they typically get paid per play (or said song or movie) or does the service provider pay a flate rate for the content up front?

I want to say music services are typically pay per play, less sure about Netflix. I'm curious because if we did go with this type of service and the monetization isn't right, it could have some pretty major impacts on the types of games made and the risks that content creators are willing to take.

gofreak · Feb 23, 2013

H_Prestige said:
Hopefully the ps4 bombs so this doesn't become the future. Streaming is garbage. Always was, always will be.

If PS4 bombs this will be the only future SCE jumps behind! If PS4 is a big success it's more likely to slow their cloud ambitions and allow them maintain a fence around at least some of their content.

GorillaJu · Feb 23, 2013

His general responses to the questions seem pretty savvy and honest. I feel like Sony has the right idea going into this generation, more so than they did going PS2>PS3.

Eteric Rice · Feb 23, 2013

LeadenStride said:
I know people love this, but if it eventually kills physical media, it's rather a nightmare for me.

Basically this. I'll likely leave the hobby for the most part.

Manmademan · Feb 23, 2013

PG2G said:
Out of curiosity, does anyone know how the content owners get paid on services on Netflix and Spotify? Do they typically get paid per play (or said song or movie) or does the service provider pay a flate rate for the content up front?

I want to say music services are typically pay per play, less sure about Netflix. I'm curious because if we did go with this type of service and the monetization isn't right, it could have some pretty major impacts on the types of games made and the risks that content creators are willing to take.

I think it's a little of both. netflix negotiates up front fees to make content available on a per studio basis (look at the disney deal) and I'm sure certain high profile titles command a premium on top of that.

Syphon Filter · Feb 23, 2013

Zeal said:
If this really works as intended, I predict this is the future of gaming. Period.

Everything will go streaming.

hell no i can't stand streaming games.

Dragon · Feb 23, 2013

H_Prestige said:
Hopefully the ps4 bombs so this doesn't become the future. Streaming is garbage. Always was, always will be.

Not sure what's stopping you from buying your PS4 games physically but I suppose complaining about it in a thread is lazier if nothing else.

Gintoki313 · Feb 23, 2013

I didn't like that subscription comment

Does this mean Sony is planning a subscription fee for us. When having a PS3 something you can always brag to your friends about is that your online is free. If they have a subscription fee then that all goes out the window and it's just exclusives to brag about again (theirs probably something else to brag about but for now not that much until we see the Durango).

Hopefully if PS4 does have to have a subscription fee it's not too big. For all the stuff that comes with it it deserves a subscription but I still don't like it.

i-Lo · Feb 23, 2013

The envisioned future one hub (PSN/GAIKAI/PLAY) one hardware (PS4) and multiple outlets (streaming).

My biggest problem is that Home was promised to be a lot of things and was truly visionary as a concept. It did not live up to its promises. However, unlike, Home, the PLAY concept is the fundamental pillar for the survival of the brand and I really hope they do NOT screw this up since I am hearing a lot of "rolling on" for features.

VariantX · Feb 23, 2013

Its a good idea, but the market will never be able to take advantage of it as long as our infrastructure is the way it is. When people can get faster, cheaper, more reliable broadband access without usage caps this will explode.

gofreak · Feb 23, 2013

Gintoki313 said:
I didn't like that subscription comment
Does this mean Sony is planning a subscription fee for us. When having a PS3 something you can always brag to your friends about is that your online is free. If they have a subscription fee then that all goes out the window and it's just exclusives to brag about again (theirs probably something else to brag about but for now not that much until we see the Durango).

Hopefully if PS4 does have to have a subscription fee it's not too big. For all the stuff that comes with it it deserves a subscription but I still don't like it.

Subscription for a netflix-style game streaming service isn't subscription for online play.

A flat subscription for whole catalog-access is the most desirable approach for Gaikai, IMO.

aliencowz7 · Feb 23, 2013

Gintoki313 said:
I didn't like that subscription comment
Does this mean Sony is planning a subscription fee for us. When having a PS3 something you can always brag to your friends about is that your online is free. If they have a subscription fee then that all goes out the window and it's just exclusives to brag about again (theirs probably something else to brag about but for now not that much until we see the Durango).

Hopefully if PS4 does have to have a subscription fee it's not too big. For all the stuff that comes with it it deserves a subscription but I still don't like it.

Its talking about having the streaming and stuff behind possible subscription tiers, online play is going to be free.

Think of it like there being 2 extra tiers of PS+ that just add more stuff to the service along with what it currently does.

Boss Man · Feb 23, 2013

LeadenStride said:
I know people love this, but if it eventually kills physical media, it's rather a nightmare for me.

I don't think physical media will ever go anywhere, it's just getting ready to hit a weird transitional phase.

The reason it will stick around is mostly for novelty, but it's not happening yet. Eventually, you'll buy physical copies of your favorite media and they will come with a very nice box, booklet, stuff like that. It won't just be mass-produced to throw on the shelf like it is now, it will actually be a nice thing that you'll want to have around.

gofreak · Feb 23, 2013

i-Lo said:
The envisioned future one hub (PSN/GAIKAI/PLAY) one hardware (PS4) and multiple outlets (streaming).

My biggest problem is that Home was promised to be a lot of things and was truly visionary as a concept. It did not live up to its promises. However, unlike, Home, the PLAY concept is the fundamental pillar for the survival of the brand and I really hope they do NOT screw this up since I am hearing a lot of "rolling on" for features.

Well, Gaikai has proven the concept on technical grounds at least. And Home never had the guts of a billion dollars pumped into it, which is the likely size of their investment in this initiative

And as you say, this idea is about something very fundamental to their business: content delivery and its future.

If it falls apart it'll be because of poor or overly-cautious business decisions rather than on technical feasibility or capability, IMO.

Paddington Bear · Feb 23, 2013

I haven't watched cable since Netflix.

This could be the same for gaming

Gintoki313 · Feb 23, 2013

gofreak said:
Subscription for a netflix-style game streaming service isn't subscription for online play.

A flat subscription for whole catalog-access is the most desirable approach for Gaikai, IMO.

aliencowz7 said:
Its talking about having the streaming and stuff behind possible subscription tiers, online play is going to be free.

Think of it like there being 2 extra tiers of PS+ that just add more stuff to the service along with what it currently does.

Oh I must have read that wrong. Welp as long as my PSN remains free I'm a happy gamer. Not sure about that streaming subscription unless it's really good when the PS4 is launched.

PG2G · Feb 23, 2013

Manmademan said:
I think it's a little of both. netflix negotiates up front fees to make content available on a per studio basis (look at the disney deal) and I'm sure certain high profile titles command a premium on top of that.

That would make sense. Still don't know that it would make too much sense for gaming though. When it comes to movies or TV, you already know what is a break out hit and what isn't and the pricing can be adjusted accordingly. For games, assuming that this sort of service would have new games, something like a Minecraft would have only lined the services pockets, not the developers.

I guess we'll see. I don't see a good business case for this unless streaming games are like streaming movies and come out ~3-6 months after initial release.

NotLiquid · Feb 23, 2013

Zeal said:
If this really works as intended, I predict this is the future of gaming. Period.

Everything will go streaming.

This of course presumes that the entire industry is hinging on the concept of content being offered as a circumstantial privilege as opposed to an option. The prerequisites for being able to flawlessly display this kind of content at any given time is one that's still far too many years to be perfected considering how providers operate. I don't even like using smartphones as a comparison but not even those have dedicated themselves to creating streaming services as an absolute, especially when providers for those are the most prone to limiting bandwidth caps.

The idea for the cloud is a really interesting one, but realistically this is still many ways off, and speaking personally I'm rather dubious of entrusting this particular dedication to Sony considering the infamous hack still lingers in our memories.

Hana-Bi · Feb 23, 2013

I doubt that publishers would like the idea of a subscription model for their games. This would be a really unsteady business model for them.

aliencowz7 · Feb 23, 2013

PG2G said:
That would make sense. Still don't know that it would make too much sense for gaming though. When it comes to movies or TV, you already know what is a break out hit and what isn't and the pricing can be adjusted accordingly. For games, assuming that this sort of service would have new games, something like a Minecraft would have only lined the services pockets, not the developers.

I guess we'll see. I don't see a good business case for this unless streaming games are like streaming movies and come out ~3-6 months after initial release.

Just have non current gen games available on the streaming service and current gen games in stores / digital only.

Every new gen the current game lineup moves to the streaming service and a new lineup of games can be put on store shelves / the digital store.

Durante · Feb 23, 2013

Fancy Corndog said:
Streaming will be a 'background word' by the end of the decade, it will be nothing more than technical jargon for the mechanism through which you receive all of your content. Students will learn about it in their networking classes, and the general public won't even notice it's going on.

If that happens, and it seems likely at this point, gaming, gamers, and consumers in general will be much worse off for it.

I still hope that VR takes off to some extent to counter this in the core market. At least you can't stream VR.

Miles Quaritch · Feb 23, 2013

I like the sound of a spotify for games, but my concern is that the games selection will be limited to games where developers, etc are still in business.

Games like Alien Trilogy, Fear Effect, Die Hard Trilogy to name just three would be sorely missing from the service and that's where the true value for me lies with such a service.

Still, I look forward to seeing what they can bring to the table.

Sill4 · Feb 23, 2013

Reminds me of the Sega Channel

Zaptruder · Feb 23, 2013

This seems quite in line with an idea thread I posted earlier...

- Buy a PS4 and register your console to the PSCloud account.
- Premium PSCloud grants you access to the PSCloud on other platforms (alternatively, you could just pay for a monthly PSCloud without buying the PS4, and play all your PS4 games via streaming).
- Any physical games you buy has a code you use to register the game to your PSCloud account; those games can still be played on any machine via disc... but the code is single use. Registered games can also be fully installed and run without media.
- Any games/media in your PSCloud account can be accessible via any platform that has the PSCloud; tablets, PCs, Hotel room TVs, etc.
- Friendslist and cross game chat is accessible from any location that you can access your PSCloud account.
- You can buy any game on the PSCloud; if the platform that you're using is compatible with the game you're playing, then you can download a copy of that (i.e. You buy a PS4 game on the cloud, you can download that onto the PS4 to play. If you buy a PC game off the PSCloud network, you can download that game onto your PC).
- Otherwise you just play the game via streaming.

Additional ideas:
- SonyCloud user style facebook accounts (gaming orientated; what are you playing kind of thing).
- Content specific forums accessible via the cloud; Go online to discuss games and share tips and strats with people. Can be extended to have subforums for games; cars in GT, characters in Street Fighter, etc.
- Second Life up Home; have user addable content that can be reviewed and voted on by other users (kinda like greenlight), but also use it as vector for bonus material; Buy special edition, get a Home T-shirt, carpet, couch, whatever. Have Home be streamed via Gaikai... in that manner the excessive loading in and out of Home can be avoided; allowing it to be viably be used as a virtual interactive front end for using console functionality.

Manmademan · Feb 23, 2013

aliencowz7 said:
Just have non current gen games available on the streaming service and current gen games in stores / digital only.

Every new gen the current game lineup moves to the streaming service and a new lineup of games can be put on store shelves / the digital store.

this is basically the netflix model anyway. 95% of the content on that service is ancient tv shows and C list movies no one will ever, EVER watch.

more current stuff tends to be pay per download on other services like amazon, itunes, etc.

The two ecosystems can coexist. consumers seem to understand the difference.

MikeE21286 · Feb 23, 2013

So ps3 BC behind a paywall

Boss Man · Feb 23, 2013

Hana-Bi said:
I doubt that publishers would like the idea of a subscription model for their games. This would be a really unsteady business model for them.

I'm not sure if this is true, because there's no telling how exactly it would end up working.

Imagine paying a subscription (say, $8.99/month) for full access to a particular game. This would actually be a much more flexible and steadier business model IMO.

From the gamer's perspective, if they spend $60 a month they now have access to 6 games instead of one. From the publisher's point of view, they are getting a steady and direct stream of income so long as they produce quality titles and maintain them. The only question of the publisher is whether they expect 6 people to pay $10/3 people to pay $20/etc. or 1 person to spend $60. I think that's a very attractive change in the model for both sides, honestly. If you only spend two months on a game, you only spend $20 on it. If you feel like going back, you pick up where you left off and have now spent a total of $30. For the publisher, a lot more people are spending money on your game (entry at $10 instead of $60) and all you need to do is make sure that they want to stay subscribed.

If you want to 'own' a game, you pay $50 for a lifetime or get yourself a nice collector's physical copy for $60. I think the future will look something like this, but there's no way to tell how it will evolve honestly.

If I had to guess, I would say that the average gamer would be spending $20-$30 a month in this model (not including permanent purchases). Does the average gamer buy a $60 retail game every two months? I don't know the answer to that, but to me it seems like this model would spread income a lot more evenly among developers (more freedom to create unique experiences, less pressure to strike oil at retail) and I get the feeling that a lot more money would be being spent on games overall.

inner-G · Feb 23, 2013

Yosp is the man.

prwxv3 · Feb 23, 2013

It does not look like they are jumping the gun like Onlive thank god. They using the Gaikai tech to first improve PSN and remote play while they work on the cloud gaming goal. And the Gaikai tech was already much better then Onlive.

aliencowz7 · Feb 23, 2013

Manmademan said:
this is basically the netflix model anyway. 95% of the content on that service is ancient tv shows and C list movies no one will ever, EVER watch.

more current stuff tends to be pay per download on other services like amazon, itunes, etc.

The two ecosystems can coexist. consumers seem to understand the difference.

Pretty much, the wild popularity of netflix streaming shows that people are willing to pay a subscription to have unlimited access to old content that they wouldn't other wise buy in singular form.

It ends up being pure profit for sony, as well as any game publishers since these games are no longer selling new copies anymore.

Hana-Bi · Feb 23, 2013

Fancy Corndog said:
I'm not sure if this is true, because there's no telling how exactly it would end up working.

Imagine paying a subscription (say, $9.99/month) for full access to a particular game. This would actually be a much more flexible and steadier business model IMO.

From the gamer's perspective, if they spend $60 a month they now have access to 6 games instead of one. From the publisher's point of view, they are getting a steady and direct stream of income so long as they produce quality titles and maintain them.

Sorry, I mean a spotify model. You pay Sony lets say 15$ per month and have unlimited access to certain games. Pay maybe 25$ per month and you'll get unlimited access to all PS4 titles.

The publishers would just receive a fraction of this money.

And especially they would receive the money over time and not upfront with a retail release at 60$. This would really constrain the flexibility of some developers/publishers...

If it would be a subscription model like you described I also see some big problems: if this would be the future this could possible be the end for single player only titles. You can clear the game within a month and never touch it again. The publisher now gets just 10$ instead of 60$. AAA titles wouldn't be possible anymore.

Corto · Feb 23, 2013

wienke said:
If it was like $100 a month like I pay for cable (which I use far less than games)?

Heck yeah.

I would love to haggle with you. hehehe Don't give Sony ideas damn you! I'm sure there will be a lot of experiments surrounding the price and content of each subscription package until they hit a sweet spot. Baby steps, baby steps.

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