• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Alyx Vance is the best female character in a game.

J

JessicaPadkin

Member
Hawkian said:
I didn't proffer Bayonetta as an example of a great female character, you have to take that up with those who did. I was simply voicing agreement that they're equally, and effectively ridiculous.

Yes, like cartoon characters. For what it's worth, Bugs Bunny is a fucking fantastic character, and it has nothing to do with good dramatic writing.
Click to expand...
Yup. At least with Bayonetta, she's blatantly not meant to be taken as a serious character. Nobody's going to play Bayonetta and think that's a valid model for a real life woman, just like nobody would think Duke was a realistic human being. And hey, she does break stereotypes in some striking ways-- she's actually extremely dominant, for one!

I find it considerably worse when a female character in a realistic story is unconvincing. Some people are mentioning Madison Paige in this thread, but to be honest I took issue with her. I mean, I see this
forced strip/attempted rape
play out in the game, and as a woman I find it deeply disturbing... but the female in the game practically laughs it off. It's hard to tell if the developers just didn't understand how a woman would feel in that kind of situation or if they'd deliberately downplayed it because they wanted the male players to enjoy the scene, but I found it quite troubling, really.
 
T

Twig

Banned
autobzooty said:
But if the first thing you think of when describing her is how attractive she is, then she probably doesn't have a whole lot of characterization going on for her.
Click to expand...
So anyone who has a primarily visual memory is inherently flawed.

I learn something new every day!
luxarific said:
Though I just remembered: Chell in Portal is female. I really like the fact that I forgot she was a woman until now. That's a good indication that the story she was in and what she was doing was more important than her gender.

We need more Chells.
Click to expand...
You've got to be trolling. Or you're insane.

While Samus is simply an empty shell of a human being, at least she has the shell. Chell has no shell. (HEHE SNORT S/CHELL) Chell is nothing but a black hole.

Besides that, Valve never intended for Chell to be anything but a glorified camera for the player. Hell, we wouldn't even know her name if it wasn't in the data files.
 
P

Purkake4

Banned
Twig said:
While Samus is simply an empty shell of a human being, at least she has the shell. Chell has no shell. (HEHE SNORT S/CHELL) Chell is nothing but a black hole.

Besides that, Valve never intended for Chell to be anything but a glorified camera for the player. Hell, we wouldn't even know her name if it wasn't in the data files.
Click to expand...
Yeah, when the automated turrets have more personality than you, one might think that perhaps the story isn't really about Chell...
 
H

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
JessicaPadkin said:
Yup. At least with Bayonetta, she's blatantly not meant to be taken as a serious character. Nobody's going to play Bayonetta and think that's a valid model for a real life woman, just like nobody would think Duke was a realistic human being. And hey, she does break stereotypes in some striking ways-- she's actually extremely dominant, for one!

I find it considerably worse when a female character in a realistic story is unconvincing. Some people are mentioning Madison Paige in this thread, but to be honest I took issue with her. I mean, I see this
forced strip/attempted rape
play out in the game, and as a woman I find it deeply disturbing... but the female in the game practically laughs it off. It's hard to tell if the developers just didn't understand how a woman would feel in that kind of situation or if they'd deliberately downplayed it because they wanted the male players to enjoy the scene, but I found it quite troubling, really.
Click to expand...

I'm glad you agree about Bayonetta. I agree she also breaks the mold in some ways, too.

For what it's worth, I haven't played Heavy Rain but that certainly sounds extremely disturbing.
 
M

Metal B

Member
Skilletor said:
Femininity is defined by sex appeal? lol
Click to expand...
No, but it is the best weapon females have by default.

autobzooty said:
You're right, both Duke and Bayonnetta are extremely over the top, like cartoon characters.

Next you're gonna try to convince me that Bugs Bunny is a good example of a great character and good dramatic writing.
Click to expand...

I do not say, she is the best female character. What is an stupid question to begin with (there is not one, there are many and it change with every person). But she is not a bad character that only exist for "Look! Ass and tits!". There is a real concept behind her and this concept works in his way. By the way Bugs Bunny IS a good character, but his concept has nothing to do with drama. He is a fun character, who exists to deliver a joke. Like Bayonette just existence to be badass and funny. Not everything has to be extrem deep to be good.
 
G

Glass Soldier

Banned
Metal B said:
I do not say, she is the best female character. What is an stupid question to begin with (there is not one, there are many and it change with every person). But she is not a bad character that only exist for "Look! Ass and tits!". There is a real concept behind her and this concept works in his way. By the way Bugs Bunny IS a good character, but his concept has nothing to do with drama. He is a fun character, who exists to deliver a joke. Like Bayonette just existence to be badass and funny. Not everything has to be extrem deep to be good.
Click to expand...

Oh please, everybody knows that there's only one kind of good female character.
 
B

bhlaab

Member
I haven't played Bayonetta but from what I've seen of the game there is a thread of self-awareness throughout that salvages her character. Comparing her to Duke Nukem was a good call.

But I think both Duke and Bayonetta are stand-ins for the personality of the twisted worlds they inhabit rather than developed personalities in their own right.
 
M

major_killjoy

Member
JessicaPadkin said:
I mean, I see this
forced strip/attempted rape
play out in the game, and as a woman I find it deeply disturbing... but the female in the game practically laughs it off. It's hard to tell if the developers just didn't understand how a woman would feel in that kind of situation or if they'd deliberately downplayed it because they wanted the male players to enjoy the scene, but I found it quite troubling, really.
Click to expand...

This scene bothered me, as well. By this time, Madison has already experienced TWO very vulnerable/dangerous situations over the span of a few days. Anyone (male or female) should have exhibited some kind of mental shock, by now.
 
A

autobzooty

Member
I shouldn't have used the words "good character" because obviously Bugs Bunny is a good character. But he's certainly one-dimensional, and we're having a discussion about strong female leads who amount to more than just vessels for displaying sexuality. Bayonnetta is nothing more than a vessel for displaying sexuality. Every aspect of that character is one fetish or another. From the perspective of trying to advance female characters into roles that matter and can be taken seriously and are not objectifying, Bayonnetta is a step backwards.

I yearn for a world where games like Bayonnetta aren't offensive to me (as a man), but women in video games and film have too much of an uphill battle as it is for me to be able to appreciate the admittedly commendable amount of effort that went into making Bayonnetta sexy as all hell. In a world that had an equal playing field, I think both men and women would be able to appreciate what Bayonnetta is trying to be, but we're way too far away from an equal playing field for it to not come across as offensive. Even if part of me finds the game to be a (very) guilty pleasure.
 
D

Drinky Crow

Banned
Emma_Honeywell_Artwork.jpg


40+ years old veteran, matriarchal, thoughtful, terribly overprotective. good with a sword. neither looks nor acts like a sex fantasy (unless you're german).

really, though, i just wanted an excuse to pimp the last remnant, which is the best game you hormonal apes have never played. pc version, of course.
 
B

bhlaab

Member
autobzooty said:
I shouldn't have used the words "good character" because obviously Bugs Bunny is a good character. But he's certainly one-dimensional, and we're having a discussion about strong female leads who amount to more than just vessels for displaying sexuality. Bayonnetta is nothing more than a vessel for displaying sexuality. Every aspect of that character is one fetish or another. From the perspective of trying to advance female characters into roles that matter and can be taken seriously and are not objectifying, Bayonnetta is a step backwards.

I yearn for a world where games like Bayonnetta aren't offensive to me (as a man), but women in video games and film have too much of an uphill battle as it is for me to be able to appreciate the admittedly commendable amount of effort that went into making Bayonnetta sexy as all hell. In a world that had an equal playing field, I think both men and women would be able to appreciate what Bayonnetta is trying to be, but we're way too far away from an equal playing field for it to not come across as offensive. Even if part of me finds the game to be a (very) guilty pleasure.
Click to expand...

Well, that's interesting. I could argue that viewing every female character you see as either "a step forward" or "a step backward" for some sort of feminist "ideal" is objectifying in its own right.

Quit thinking about the playing field and instead focus on the individual players.
 
A

autobzooty

Member
bhlaab said:
Well, that's interesting. I could argue that viewing every female character you see as either "a step forward" or "a step backward" for some sort of feminist "ideal" is objectifying in its own right.

Quit thinking about the playing field and instead focus on the individual players.
Click to expand...

Please do, I'd love to hear how feminism is sexist.
 
H

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
Bayonetta certainly is a guilty pleasure. Most overtly sexy things are :lol I have trouble finding it terribly offensive, though. I found much more offensive (though still, only to a degree) the female characters in every DMC game. They exist absolutely ONLY to support the male character and be nice to look at. It really is annoying. Still, the atmosphere is one of such extreme goofiness and abject ridiculousity- it's not meant to be taken seriously by a long shot.

I haven't played Bayonetta but from what I've seen of the game there is a thread of self-awareness throughout that salvages her character. Comparing her to Duke Nukem was a good call.

But I think both Duke and Bayonetta are stand-ins for the personality of the twisted worlds they inhabit rather than developed personalities in their own right.
Click to expand...

You have seen things for what they are.

I really disagree that Bayonetta is JUST a vessel for sexuality, though. As much as the Duke Nukem comparison does apply, it's not hard to argue that her character has a lot more going on, including ancient secrets, a sense of humor and
a time paradox
. She isn't a poor female lead character in terms of narrative because she's sexy, she's a poor female lead because her story- as much is it is obviously THERE in comparison to Duke Nukem's- is an absurd, convoluted mess. :lol
 
M

Metal B

Member
major_killjoy said:
This scene bothered me, as well. By this time, Madison has already experienced TWO very vulnerable/dangerous situations over the span of a few days. Anyone (male or female) should have exhibited some kind of mental shock, by now.
Click to expand...

The entire motivation of her is not really accomplished. Why does she go through so much dangerous tasks to help and fall in love in someone, she only knows for some minutes? She also have no real negative character traits, what make her a real boring person. She is smart, strong, independent, successful and beautiful, that's not really interesting. The only part, what could give her more deep, the nightmares, are never explain and seen to be completely pointless.
 
A

Aexact

Member
Drinky Crow said:
Emma Honeywell

40+ years old veteran, matriarchal, thoughtful, terribly overprotective. good with a sword. neither looks nor acts like a sex fantasy (unless you're german).

really, though, i just wanted an excuse to pimp the last remnant, which is the best game you hormonal apes have never played. pc version, of course.
Click to expand...

Pfft, she's been mentioned. Same picture too!
Her daughter steals her thunder though. It's like that Ikea lamp commerical though. Many of you feel sorry for the old lamp. That's because you're crazy, the new one is much better. But I liked the old lamp! =(
 
D

Drinky Crow

Banned
feh on her daughter. she doesn't have a cool scar or the hopelessly romantic sense of motherly protectiveness towards the royal rent boy, lord dah-veed.
 
skyfinch

skyfinch

Member
I always thought Linda from Double Dragon was smoking hot!

218217_f520.jpg


I wish they would make a spin off with her as the main character.
 
D

DevilWillcry

Member
Ugh at all the Bayonetta mentions. She is everything that is wrong with female protagonists in gaming. This is coming from a die-hard Kamiya fanboy. Why not just throw in Itagaki's boob dolls while we're at it? :lol
 
Z

Zoramon089

Banned
autobzooty said:
personally, I think that if "sexy" is one of the first adjectives that come to your mind when describing a good female character, you don't have a good female character.
Click to expand...

Then personally I think you idea of a good female character is incredibly stupid and narrow-minded. A woman being sexy doesn't all of a sudden discredit anything good about her character. Stop thinking every female game character has to be plain and unappealing to even be considered a good character, it's wrong. For instance, take Sylvia from NMH. She uses her sexual appeal to manipulate Travis and get him to do what she wants. By your definition of what a good female character can be, because she shows cleavage she's simply there for sex appeal and can't be a good character
 
A

autobzooty

Member
Zoramon089 said:
Then personally I think you idea of a good female character is incredibly stupid and narrow-minded. A woman being sexy doesn't all of a sudden discredit anything good about her character. Stop thinking every female game character has to be plain and unappealing to even be considered a good character, it's wrong. For instance, take Sylvia from NMH. She uses her sexual appeal to manipulate Travis and get him to do what she wants. By your definition of what a good female character can be, because she shows cleavage she's simply there for sex appeal and can't be a good character
Click to expand...

read the rest of my posts, i dont wanna respond to the same criticism again.
 
A

a Master Ninja

Member
DevilWillcry said:
Ugh at all the Bayonetta mentions. She is everything that is wrong with female protagonists in gaming.
Click to expand...
I've met a number of female gamers that would strongly disagree with this. I'd also recommend looking into Mari Shimazaki's (character designer of Bayonetta) thoughts for some perspective.
 
T

Twig

Banned
autobzooty said:
Please do, I'd love to hear how feminism is sexist.
Click to expand...
It's not exactly rocket science. Because a) that's not what he said, and b) we don't view every male character as a step forward or back.
 
A

autobzooty

Member
Twig said:
It's not exactly rocket science. Because a) that's not what he said, and b) we don't view every male character as a step forward or back.
Click to expand...

Actually, that IS what he said. He said he could argue that adopting that perspective is objectifying. i.e., sexist.

And anyways, I don't view every female character as a step forward or a step back. I only do that when we're talking about which female characters are a step forward or a step back. I'm not some champion of feminism or anything, but I do try to be sensitive to the issue.
 
T

Twig

Banned
Show me in the post where he said feminism, specifically, is sexist. Because that is your accusation, and it never happened.
 
D

DevilWillcry

Member
a Master Ninja said:
I've met a number of female gamers that would strongly disagree with this. I'd also recommend looking into Mari Shimazaki's (character designer of Bayonetta) thoughts for some perspective.
Click to expand...
They can develop her character all they want. It's all for nothing if they put all that development into a character whose clothes come off as she fights. You can take a hooker off the streets but you can't take the streets out of a hooker. Do you guys remember the marketing for Bayonetta? I know Sega is probably more to blame for that, but it was pretty sleazy overall. I don't think female gamers would be too psyched if Bayonetta were to become the standard for female gaming protagonists. Talk about setting women back like 20 years.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the Bayonetta character as a sort of satire and for that reason I come to expect the ridiculousness (which is what makes the game great btw) in her character, but to compare that to some actually well thought out female characters is laughable. I definitely do not want to see characters like Bayonetta go anywhere either, they add variety to the gaming medium. But when people start name dropping Bayonetta, a character whose main appeal is almost exclusively sexual in every aspect, in a thread about the best designed female characters is laughable. Go ahead call me narrow-minded, it doesn't change the fact that characters like Bayonetta are the reason gamers aren't taken seriously.
 
B

bhlaab

Member
DevilWillcry said:
It's all for nothing if they put all that development into a character whose clothes come off as she fights. You can take a hooker off the streets but you can't take the streets out of a hooker. [...] I don't think female gamers would be too psyched if Bayonetta were to become the standard for female gaming protagonists. Talk about setting women back like 20 years.
Click to expand...

If one arguably negative portrayal is enough to set women back 20 years, that says more about women than anything else... Chiefly that we need to refrain from these images in order to protect women from negativity. Look, I don't want to insult anybody but I'm just saying that I'm catching whiffs of paternalism. Let's not go all Handmaid's Tale here.

I do see the argument for male gaze when it comes to Bayonetta, but considering that the male gaze permeates 99% of all media creation I'm none too bothered by a slightly more overt display of it. Actually, I'm more bothered when the male gaze is subtle enough that the character is actually commended for it and somehow considered a subversion of male gaze despite being a total representation of the concept-- see: Alyx Vance

Oh and "You can take a hooker off the streets but you can't take the streets out of a hooker" is kind of a shitty thing to say dude
 
Trickster

Trickster

Member
DevilWillcry said:
They can develop her character all they want. It's all for nothing if they put all that development into a character whose clothes come off as she fights. You can take a hooker off the streets but you can't take the streets out of a hooker. Do you guys remember the marketing for Bayonetta? I know Sega is probably more to blame for that, but it was pretty sleazy overall. I don't think female gamers would be too psyched if Bayonetta were to become the standard for female gaming protagonists. Talk about setting women back like 20 years.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the Bayonetta character as a sort of satire and for that reason I come to expect the ridiculousness (which is what makes the game great btw) in her character, but to compare that to some actually well thought out female characters is laughable. I definitely do not want to see characters like Bayonetta go anywhere either, they add variety to the gaming medium. But when people start name dropping Bayonetta, a character whose main appeal is almost exclusively sexual in every aspect, in a thread about the best designed female characters is laughable. Go ahead call me narrow-minded, it doesn't change the fact that characters like Bayonetta are the reason gamers aren't taken seriously.
Click to expand...

Someone linked to an article earlier, written by a woman about bayonetta, go read that if you want to know why you are horribly wrong.

Also, you take issue with bayonetta being in the topic, but not samus?
 
S

Spirit of Jazz

Banned
Drinky Crow said:
40+ years old veteran, matriarchal, thoughtful, terribly overprotective. good with a sword. neither looks nor acts like a sex fantasy (unless you're german).

really, though, i just wanted an excuse to pimp the last remnant, which is the best game you hormonal apes have never played. pc version, of course.
Click to expand...

I'd put Emma behind Kreia mostly for the disparity in the quality of the writing between the games. She was a great character, stronger than any of the males whilst retaining her femininity with a fantastic final sequence. However they ruined her death by giving you Emma 2.0 right after it.
 
A

autobzooty

Member
NinajHeartless said:
897021-chi_e.png


Not the most deep by any means, but one of my personal favorites :D

She got dat galactic punt mang
Click to expand...

She's got a special place in my heart, too. I'm not completely sure why, either :lol

GALACTIC PUNTTTTT
 
D

DevilWillcry

Member
Trickster said:
Someone linked to an article earlier, written by a woman about bayonetta, go read that if you want to know why you are horribly wrong.

Also, you take issue with bayonetta being in the topic, but not samus?
Click to expand...
Why would I have issues with Samus being in the topic? She fits the profile of the topic :p
 
N

Net_Wrecker

Member
DevilWillcry said:
Ugh at all the Bayonetta mentions. She is everything that is wrong with female protagonists in gaming. This is coming from a die-hard Kamiya fanboy. Why not just throw in Itagaki's boob dolls while we're at it? :lol
Click to expand...

What the hell is this? Bayonetta is a strong, extremely dominant character who seems to be completely aware of just how over the top she is. She isn't being used, isn't a damsel in distress, and isn't there just for eye candy. She isn't meant to be deep or realistic, and it completely works. Why people think everything has to be deep, and feel real to be great is beyond me.
 
Prax

Prax

Member
Well, I happen to like Samus (metroid), Zelda (zelda), Ira (fire emblem), Lenneth (valkyrie profile), Chun-Li (street fighter), and Celes (final fantasy) as characters...

Typically, I like female characters that are in some kind of position of authority and act responsibly/nobly without pandering too much to the audience with sexuality or cutesiness (I may think them cute regardless, but I really don't need them to be acting like kittens or making exaggerated nods and curtsies). I'm sure there'd be others if I played more games.. xD

That said, I tend to dislike female characters that pander (e.g. stupid armour bikinis, superfrills, annoying exegerrated mannerisms, ultrapure mystical airheads, ultradepraved cynical jerkfaces) or that act as lame sidekick love interests. This includes characters that are supposedly satire/designed to be exegerrated and dumb. Oh good, so they purposefully made the character suck!

I think one of the big problems is that there aren't enough female characters in general (not that there are that many great males ones either, but at least there's a higher quantity to choose from).

I also think it's weird how some poeple in this thread say that a female needs to be "obviously female" in some way to even count as a great female character. Can't a great character be a great character? If that character happens to be female too, then she is a great female character!
 
J

jim-jam bongs

Member
Trickster said:
Someone linked to an article earlier, written by a woman about bayonetta, go read that if you want to know why you are horribly wrong.
Click to expand...

Yeah dude, because women as a collective entity all share the same opinion.

I think that Marcus Fenix is a revolting and offensive depiction of masculinity, other guys I know disagree. Every woman I know thinks that Bayonetta is a revolting and offensive depiction of femininity, and the writer of the piece linked disagrees. Neither is right or wrong, welcome to subjectivity-land.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Just finished Horizon Burning Shores and... can we talk about a particular lack of balance in the portrayal of relationships in video games?
2 3
138
8K
Barakov replied
Lara Croft Crowned Most Iconic Video Games Character of All Time, According to BAFTA Poll
2 3 4 5
208
9K
ResurrectedContrarian replied
Epic Games Still Wants Nintendo Characters in Fortnite
Game Dev 2
59
3K
Heimdall_Xtreme replied
Cyberpunk 2077 - An ode to one of the best games ever
Opinion 2 3
120
5K
IlGialloMondadori replied
The System Shock remake is getting a massive patch with a revised ending, choice of female player character and more
News
21
2K
Roni replied
Top Bottom