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"My Weekend In America’s So-Called ‘Rape Capital’"

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F

FStop7

Banned
Oh for fuck's sake.

Teaching people things like situational awareness and how to defend themselves is not blaming the victim. Blaming someone for not having defended themselves is blaming the victim. How has this gone on for so many pages, it's like common sense packed up its bags and took off for an early weekend.

And the above vs. teaching people not to be rapists isn't a binary decision. You can actually do both, amazingly.
 
MaddenNFL64

MaddenNFL64

Member
This is Bobby the Rape Bear saying only you can prevent rapes! Stop dressing like a whore! Your curves make us rape you, so it's all your fault. Make sure to dress like a nun, never make eye contact with men, and ALWAYS move in packs of 10 or more women. Safety in numbers, ladies. Never, ever be alone. Ever! And certainly not with a man, as he will probably rape you!

Also, buy our Rape Prevention Kit, the only kit 99% proven to make you unattractive to all predatory rapists. It'll make you look horrible, smell terrible, and set expectations that you are probably diseased & not worth raping! Guaranteed or your money back.
 
I

iamblades

Member
Incendiary said:
The best way to reduce rapes is to teach men and women that raping is wrong. That no means no, even when you're drunk. That when you're drunk, you should control your base urges, and if you can't to not get that drunk in the first place. That men don't have a right to sex, women can wear whatever they want, and can change their mind depending on how they feel without consequences.

Yes, it's also practical to tell girls to travel in groups and don't do X and do Y and that will make you safer....but isn't it more practical to go straight at the potential rapists instead of the potential victims? When I go to a party, I don't worry about going alone or with friends. Why should women have to do the same? If a woman wants to go to a party by herself, she should be able to and not worry that she has a higher chance of being raped because of it.

Is it more practical to fireproof your entire house, or be taught that playing with matches could burn your house down and to not do it? Maybe I should stop using analogies.
Click to expand...

SuperBonk said:
Thanks for that, I admit I didn't read the full study.

But is that really the best we can do? What if we put those resources into teaching men about how wrong rape is? Do you think that will have an even greater impact on decreasing the instances of rape? I know the society we live in is not utopia, but I certainly want to take the steps to make it one.
Click to expand...


I don't think there is a person on the planet that hasn't heard the message that raping is wrong. I don't think saying ' bad rapist, no raping!' is really going to do much..

It would certainly be nice if just telling people not to do bad things would work, but I have my doubts on the efficacy of those measures in the real world.
 
T

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
ronito said:
Yesterday: Men can't compliment women on their boobs! Do you know how sexually vulernable it makes women feel?! What about schrodinger's rapist?! Men should know better than to be so overtly sexual!

Today: Why are you limiting what women can do you patriarchal assholes?!
Click to expand...

Does women not being chaperoned or going out and drinking and having fun make you uncomfortable (like said compliment)? Does it affect you negatively?

iamblades said:
I don't think there is a person on the planet that hasn't heard the message that raping is wrong. I don't think saying ' bad rapist, no raping!' is really going to do much..
Click to expand...
So you're saying that environment is not a factor? Some people are just born rapists?
 
T

Trent Strong

Banned
Devolution said:
Men rape women a lot guys. Okay let's limit what women can or should do to x y and z. And never discuss why men rape.

Sound good? Yeah okay.
Click to expand...

Who's arguing that we should limit what women can do? (And who would do the limiting? The government?) Why can't you both discuss why men rape, and do everything you possibly can to stop men from raping, and also throw out some practical advice on situational awareness at the same time?
 
S

SuperBonk

Member
iamblades said:
I don't think there is a person on the planet that hasn't heard the message that raping is wrong. I don't think saying ' bad rapist, no raping!' is really going to do much..

It would certainly be nice if just telling people not to do bad things would work, but I have my doubts on the efficacy of those measures in the real world.
Click to expand...

Hmm, maybe I phrased the question incorrectly. It seems like a bigger problem is that people don't actually know what rape is. If we look at the article in the OP, there are tons of examples of victim blaming. This is only because it wasn't the violent "stranger in a dark alley" rape that we see on TV.

We need to teach people that the behavior going in in Missoula is absolutely still rape and absolutely not ok.

Basically, rape is rape, so to speak.
 
E

elcapitan

Member
Timedog said:
You are talking about it as if it is unavoidable unless the victim does something, rather than trying to fix the root of the problem (the culture the breeds predators).
Click to expand...

I'm just providing an excuse for why advocating for preventative measures =/= blaming the victim.

Obviously, the best way to reduce the number of rape victims is to reduce the number of rapists. Perhaps education is the best way to do this. Maybe schools can have freshman go through mandatory seminars about rape prevention. Encourage responsibility from everybody in a party and not just a single person.

I wonder how many cases of rape are maliciously predatory, and how many are just a result of, I don't know the right word for it...ignorance? Basically, they think it's okay when it's really not. They don't recognize that it's actually wrong.
 
M

MooseKnuckles

Banned
Incendiary said:
Yes, teaching preventative measures is fine, but the focus should be on stopping rapists, not just telling potential victims how not to be raped.
Click to expand...

This seems like pretty much the most reasonable approach to all of this, although the fact that men have to be educated as to what constitutes rape and why they shouldn't rape is deeply troubling and deeply depressing in its own right.

Men rape women a lot guys. Okay let's limit what women can or should do to x y and z. And never discuss why men rape.

Sound good? Yeah okay.
Click to expand...

This seems like a bit of a strawman honestly, I don't think there are many posters in this thread advocating preventative measures as the only way to reduce the number of rapes. I think a discussion of rape culture and why these crimes occur is necessary and trying to change those behaviours should absolutely be the number 1 priority, but that doesn't mean that preventative measures are invalid.
 
I

Incendiary

Banned
iamblades said:
It would certainly be nice if just telling people not to do bad things would work, but I have my doubts on the efficacy of those measures in the real world.
Click to expand...

And I have my doubts about the efficacy of the so-called "preventative" measures.

I may be jaded, but I definitely think there is a bigger cultural focus on women "preventing" rapists from raping them than a strong, singular movement towards teaching men how to behave better when sex is involved. Self-control should be a universal quality, and can be taught if we try hard enough, in my opinion.
 
R

ronito

Member
Timedog said:
Does women not being chaperoned or going out and drinking and having fun make you uncomfortable (like said compliment)? Does it affect you negatively?
Click to expand...
did I say it did? Just pointing out that we had no issue calling for restraint and common sense yesterday and today its part of the patriarchy to do so. No one is saying women should be couped up nor that women are to blame just that sometimes common sense can help.
 
M

Mumei

Member
ronito said:
Yesterday: Men can't compliment women on their boobs! Do you know how sexually vulernable it makes women feel?! What about schrodinger's rapist?! Men should know better than to be so overtly sexual!

Today: Why are you limiting what women can do you patriarchal assholes?!
Click to expand...

Sigh.

You are attempting to compare men being told that to comment on women's breasts (in particular, the breasts of women whom they don't know and are strangers to them) is inappropriate with women being told that they are responsible for rape prevention and that they need to live completely circumscribed lives? You really think that there is a comparison between you not being able to say "nice tits" and her being asked to never be alone, never drink with male friends, never go on dates? And you don't see how those limitations on what women can do are far more egregious?

You've been a real disappointment these last few topics because I thought you were smarter than this.

ronito said:
did I say it did? Just pointing out that we had no issue calling for restraint and common sense yesterday and today its part of the patriarchy to do so. No one is saying women should be couped up nor that women are to blame just that sometimes common sense can help.
Click to expand...

That's the problem. Cooping women up is the only preventative action that would have a meaningful affect. You want to prevent a lot of rape? Prevent men and women from ever seeing each other alone.
 
I

iamblades

Member
Timedog said:
So you're saying that environment is not a factor? Some people are just born rapists?
Click to expand...

Everything is a factor, I just doubt the ability of a simple basic ethics lesson to change peoples behavior all that drastically.

As for the born rapist thing, this is where the topic can get really troublesome. I'll just say I have no clue.
 
A

Account Attempt #4

Member
Incendiary said:
.....

.... I definitely think there is a bigger cultural focus on women "preventing" rapists from raping them than a strong, singular movement towards teaching men how to behave better when sex is involved. ....
Click to expand...

This hits on the nose of the problems continuing in the town per the article. The focus is lost from the top level down (law enforcement). I was glad to read that the University actually took some action.
 
T

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
ronito said:
did I say it did? Just pointing out that we had no issue calling for restraint and common sense yesterday and today its part of the patriarchy to do so. No one is saying women should be couped up nor that women are to blame just that sometimes common sense can help.
Click to expand...

Your comparison was terrible and made no coherent point.
 
I

iamblades

Member
SuperBonk said:
Hmm, maybe I phrased the question incorrectly. It seems like a bigger problem is that people don't actually know what rape is. If we look at the article in the OP, there are tons of examples of victim blaming. This is only because it wasn't the violent "stranger in a dark alley" rape that we see on TV.

We need to teach people that the behavior going in in Missoula is absolutely still rape and absolutely not ok.

Basically, rape is rape, so to speak.
Click to expand...

Maybe it's just that I'm clueless about how stupid the average college student is, but to me I can't see how anyone who attends college for more than a week can be unaware that date rape is wrong. Shit anyone who has ever watched more than a season or two of your average high school/college type soap opera should be plenty aware of that.
 
R

ronito

Member
Timedog said:
Your comparison was terrible and made no coherent point.
Click to expand...
really? Cause I thought it was pretty obvious that saying "thinking before you say something that might be sexual" is ok but saying "maybe getting blind drunk around anyone you don't know is not wise" is an infringement of liberty. I'm not addressing the causes of rape and the victims. Are never to blame. But the difference in messaging is pretty notable
 
M

Mumei

Member
ronito said:
really? Cause I thought it was pretty obvious that saying "thinking before you say something that might be sexual" is ok but saying "maybe getting blind drunk around anyone you don't know is not wise" is an infringement of liberty. I'm not addressing the causes of rape and the victims. Are never to blame. But the difference in messaging is pretty notable
Click to expand...

Given that they are completely different and not at all analogous with one another?

Yes, different messaging. Different things get different responses. Go figure.
 
T

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
ronito said:
really? Cause I thought it was pretty obvious that saying "thinking before you say something that might be sexual" is ok but saying "maybe getting blind drunk around anyone you don't know is not wise" is an infringement of liberty. I'm not addressing the causes of rape and the victims. Are never to blame. But the difference in messaging is pretty notable
Click to expand...

One is something that affects someone else directly. One is not. You're not pointing out any sort of hypocrisy.
 
Angry Fork

Angry Fork

Member
I don't know why it's so blasphemous to both be able to blame the rapist for actions he did (obviously) while also pointing out to be careful and be weary of certain people/environments if you feel uncomfortable in them. If a woman wants to dress as she wants and go to a club she shouldn't have to ever worry about being raped or deal with that, but she should still think about learning self defense just in case something does happen.

If she's in a house with a bunch of guys and she feels uncomfortable like something is going to happen, it's not sacrilege to say she should follow her instincts and leave. That doesn't blame her for anything but you get the impression from people that when you bring this up, you suddenly hate women and think they should be raped or something.

Even though we want the world to be a place where you can do what you want and not have to worry about anything we don't live in that world and there are a lot of shitheads in it. If you go to a place where shitheads commonly hang out you should have someone with you or just be careful. I would say the same for anybody going into any environment male or female where there's a chance you can be taken advantage of, robbed, kidnapped etc. and so on. I don't know why gaf thinks this kind of talk is misogynistic or saying women should be stripped of their rights.
 
B

Big-E

Member
How is prevention a myth? Should we stop telling people to watch their drinks in bars and parties? Why is this blaming the victim? It is just common sense that roofies get administered in clubs, therefore people should keep an eye on their drinks.
 
Z

Zoramon089

Banned
Angry Fork said:
I don't know why it's so blasphemous to both be able to blame the rapist for actions he did (obviously) while also pointing out to be careful and be weary of certain people/environments if you feel uncomfortable in them. If a woman wants to dress as she wants and go to a club she shouldn't have to ever worry about being raped or deal with that, but she should still think about learning self defense just in case something does happen.
Click to expand...

Because according to this thread people should assume absolutely no responsibility for their own well being. Even if they become a victim, nothing they did could have changed that, altered the chance of it happening or should be taken into consideration. And if you think otherwise you're blaming the victim. No if, ands, or buts
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Zoramon089 said:
Because according to this thread people should assume absolutely no responsibility for their own well being. Even if they become a victim, nothing they did could have changed that, altered the chance of it happening or should be taken into consideration. And if you think otherwise you're blaming the victim. No if, ands, or buts
Click to expand...

Saying the victim should take preventative measures treats rape like its a thing that just happens, like natural disasters or accidents. Rape is just a risk you run, better be prepared for it. Is it really so hard to see how that attitude is unacceptable?
 
B

Baconsammy

Banned
The_Technomancer said:
Saying the victim should take preventative measures treats rape like its a thing that just happens, like natural disasters or accidents. Rape is just a risk you run, better be prepared for it. Is it really so hard to see how that attitude is unacceptable?
Click to expand...

Crime prevention has appreciably lowered the crime rate in numerous cities. Is the attitude behind implementing that unacceptable? No. Saying prevention is a myth is ignorant beyond words.


Xisiqomelir said:
sunsetplane.jpg is banned now?
Click to expand...

Using it to imply you're heading to Montana to rape some women most certainly is (and should be).
 
Z

Zoramon089

Banned
The_Technomancer said:
Saying the victim should take preventative measures treats rape like its a thing that just happens, like natural disasters or accidents. Rape is just a risk you run, better be prepared for it. Is it really so hard to see how that attitude is unacceptable?
Click to expand...

I don't see how it is. People take preventative measures for other crimes and no one sees that as unacceptable...like I said early, people don't walk through dangerous places alone at night. You don't consider that measure unacceptable do you?

And you lump in accidents with natural disasters as if they're the same. Natural disasters are completely out of anyone's control. Accidents could, in some cases, have actually been intentional just like any other crimes.

The point is, there's only 2 ways to reduce crimes from happening and possibly prevent them from happening
1. Do something about the potential culprits and
2. Help protect yourself/lower your chances of being a victim

Why is it that in ANY other crime both 1 and 2 are suggested means of combating it while with rape, 2 is not acceptable?
 
V

Vermillion

Banned
JokerOfSpades said:
To be fair though, I've done some mental gymnastics with this question. To take it to it's extreme, everyone ever can always be blamed for anything that happens to them. After all, if we wear a suit of armor all the time, we could prevent harm to ourselves. But it would not make life any more comfortable.

And of course, we should not have to. Learning self-defense would also be helpful, but should we all have to?

Why do girls rarely walk alone at night, though? Why do they always walk with someone else? Why do girls go together to parties to make sure they don't do anything stupid (I know one in particular who was explaining why girls who are virgins are surrounded by friends who cockblock for them)?

We all agree that certain degrees of prevention are wise, but not to the point where it impedes our comfort. Comfort is determined by societal influences, however. If wearing a suit of armor all the time was what we did, it would be just fine - but we don't, and it doesn't fit in in modern society.

In conclusion, I would advocate that how a woman dresses remains up to her, and taking that away would impede comfort. However, some other preventative measures are only wise as they are not against societal comfort - such as making sure not to walk alone at night, and keeping friends around you if you want to get drunk.

Eh.
Click to expand...

Just gonna quote me.
 
I

iamblades

Member
Xisiqomelir said:
The current banned meme list needs an update then:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=427771

Stumpo, if you're still here, I really liked Amir0x's old version, with the memes listed one-by-one. It was much easier to read.
Click to expand...

Are we really so stupid that we need to be treated like children with a list of things we aren't supposed to say?

Can we not just be adults and use context to figure out when someone is just being an asshole and act appropriately?
 
B

Baconsammy

Banned
JokerOfSpades said:
Just gonna quote me.
Click to expand...

I was going to disagree, but I think you've modified it since earlier in the thread where you hinted that there were somehow statistics that said prevention has little to no impact on the rate of rapes/crime. I apologize if that was someone else's post I'm thinking of.
 
M

marrec

Banned
Baconsammy said:
I was going to disagree, but I think you've modified it since earlier in the thread where you hinted that there were somehow statistics that said prevention has little to no impact on the rate of rapes/crime. I apologize if that was someone else's post I'm thinking of.
Click to expand...

I would believe those statistics, but they'd be impossible to get.
 
M

marrec

Banned
Baconsammy said:
When you have absolutely no argument, take it to the stupidest extreme, right?
Click to expand...

Taking an argument to it's most absurd conclusion is often an effective way to show that the argument is poor. You're saying that prevention helps stop crime, Devo is saying that in a society where women are forced to be as modest as possible, they're still raped.

HMMMMM
 
B

Baconsammy

Banned
Devolution said:
Why don't you wake the fuck up and realize misogyny breeds rapists. Or is the shit going down in South Africa because the women aren't taking proper precautions?
Click to expand...

Taking precautions is now akin to misogyny? That's about 200 shades of stupid.


marrec said:
Taking an argument to it's most absurd conclusion is often an effective way to show that the argument is poor. You're saying that prevention helps stop crime, Devo is saying that in a society where women are forced to be as modest as possible, they're still raped.

HMMMMM
Click to expand...

Point to one instance of me saying what you wear is a method of prevention. Just one instance please. I've been clear about my meaning.
 
M

marrec

Banned
Zoramon089 said:
There's gotta be a word for these kinds of responses...you know, the type that latch on to ridiculous/exaggerated examples to counter reasonable points instead of using real counterarguments...I'm just drawing a blank though
Click to expand...

Aargumentum ad absurdum.

Baconsammy said:
Point to one instance of me saying what you wear is a method of prevention. Just one instance please. I've been clear about my meaning.
Click to expand...

You still miss the point. It's not ABOUT prevention Bacon it's about culture. You walking your SO home every night didn't prevent her getting raped, nor did watching her drink like a hawk. It just made you feel safer (probably her too).
 
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