This is retarded. In the time it took you to read this. I rufied your drink.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
"My Weekend In Americas So-Called Rape Capital"
- Thread starter Gaborn
- Start date
- Status
This is retarded. In the time it took you to read this. I rufied your drink.
I had my eye on it the WHOLE TIME. You're a liar and a terrible potential rapist.
Baconsammy
Banned
Taking precautions does nothing to create or continue a culture of rape. It's just being intelligent. And it's incredibly preventative. We can stop this argument, because you'll never convince me that taking precautions doesn't decrease your risk of a rape occurring or any other crime.
LaserBuddha
Member
I haven't really read this thread, but I'm going to assume the theme of Devo's contributions is "The world is a rapeocracy, leaving your house without getting raped is like walking in the rain without getting wet, every thought and action you will ever engage in is contributing to someone getting raped, anyone whose stance on any of this varies from mine at all is a piece of shit, etc."
What is it, 77% of rapes are committed by people you know and trust? Precautions are near worthless in the face of those sorts of statistics. This isn't about getting jumped in some alley and raped by some thugs who are the scum of society, this is about regular ass guys who you are friends with and trust, and are also rapists. More than anything else, a drastic change in how societies around the world view rape needs to occur.
Maybe it would help if you read her posts. In fact, I wonder why you single out the ONE girl in this thread who is making these sorts of posts, especially considering there are what... a dozen guys in here just as adamantly if not MORE adamantly pushing the same points forward as her?
Maybe it would help if you read her posts. In fact, I wonder why you single out the ONE girl in this thread who is making these sorts of posts, especially considering there are what... a dozen guys in here just as adamantly if not MORE adamantly pushing the same points forward as her?
Baconsammy
Banned
Pretty much, yep. And a bunch of other people telling you that if you suggest taking precautions can lower your chance of being raped, you're a misogynistic shit that blames female victims. Can't make that up.
I'm not arguing that the act of precaution itself is useless (Devo may be, and I agree with her, but that's not what I'm arguing.) I'm arguing this:
Any perceived benefit from Prevention Rhetoric is outweighed by the negative effects it has on Rape Reporting and Victim Blaming. You may have 100% pure motives in espousing your beliefs and I trust that you do, but if we all start advocating for prevention, then those who are raped will probably feel like THEY have failed, not the rapist themselves.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This. Its not about weather preventation is good or not, its about how disproportionatly preventation is talked about with respect to other aspects of rape. Every thread on the subject is ten pages of the same arguments. I used to be the one arguing the preventation side until I saw just how universal the pattern is.
Taking precautions is next to worthless, and it is often times used to shift the blame from the perpetrator to the victim "guys are just like that honey, you just need to dress differently/be in groups/never be alone with one etc" - it's a rank issue, disgusting - and it's offensive that anyone thinks that sort of advice is the best deterrent to the problem.
The best deterrent to the problem is stopping those rapes (the vast majority rapes) that AREN'T stranger rapes. That are committed in trusting environments.
Baconsammy
Banned
Incorrect. 77 percent of rapes are acquaintances. In other words, friends, co-workers, friends of friends, people you met that night in a bar. In other words, not people jumping out of bushes. You can take precautions to prevent rapes/crimes that occur by people you met that night in a bar etc.
No, it actually isn't.
Dates actually aren't the biggest problem at all going off that study posted earlier in the thread. BFs and ex-BFs account for less than 1/4th of all completed rapes, and 15% of attempts. I'm assuming their definition of BF includes the vast majority of 'dates' of course, and it's likely that the BF category includes a large percentage of non-date rapes.
People keep bashing baconsammy about roofies as if the example he's giving means that he thinks that's the only way women get raped. It is merely an example that it is smart to keep people from putting stuff into your drink no matter what you think about rape prevention.
I would argue the same thing applies to getting sloppy drunk and going back to a room with a drunk dude you know to some varying degree.
Again, not blaming any woman for doing that, or saying it's her fault she gets raped because she did it. Merely that you have to realize that if you put yourself into that situation, you shouldn't expect much help from the cops as that rape is nearly impossible to successfully prosecute.
Okay, precautions are worthless 77 percent of the time. Let's grant that.
and the other 23 percent?
Did you not read my post in which I spelled out WHY Prevention Rhetoric is next to useless?
Angry Fork
Member
Most people in here are advocating prevention not for the sake of putting down women though, they genuinely feel like it makes sense and do it from a motive of real concern. That's why I don't understand the consistent hostility and anger as if people do it to troll/piss women off.
But anyway if those statistics are true about 85-90 then it seems the whole bar situation stuff is too rare to bother with preventative measures in those situations so I wouldn't advocate them anymore. But would you guys be against having mace/self defense knowledge too? I don't know how you can be against that.
Baconsammy
Banned
The 77 percent includes people you met that night at a bar, party, football game etc etc.
soul creator
Member
I suppose the point people are making is why does "Prevention" always seem to take up 77 percent (or more!) of the discussion?
I know this is what you want to focus on - and that is rarely RARELY what happens. Do you think
1. Most women aren't already very cautious?
2. That woman who slip up, make a mistake, or are just a little bit too trusting are in any way deserving of what happens to them?
I don't think you think these things, so we can extrapolate from that, that you agree with me that more than anything else, a dramatic change in how people view rape needs to happen.
I know you came in here talking about precautions, and people jumped down your throat and are defensive - just back off it, and really try to comprehend why people are jumping down your throat. Precautions are great for those rare occasions when they help - but they don't help or are not applicable the majority of the time - and further, precautions just shifts the burden of the crime on the victim/possible victim which is the LAST thing anyone should be doing. You need to figure out WHY people rape, and then stop it - first and foremost.
In the case of this thread, I'd wager it's because of the attack on, and defense of prevention, and the discussion being unable to go anywhere beyond this point.
Angry Fork
Member
Because it's all we can really talk about in a discussion like this. Everyone already agrees that rape shouldn't be considered 'just a thing' guys do and women shouldn't be blamed at all. That's agreed upon. Now after that it comes to 'well rape still exists so what can we do about it?' and that's when the preventative debates start.
Baconsammy
Banned
And this is where you're confused. The percent of that 77 percent that is close personal friends/boyfriends is far lower than the percentage of acquaintances that are met at bars, parties, etc etc etc So yeah, it's incredibly meaningful. All that stat is saying is that 27 percent of rapes (in the US) are committed by people you've never seen/met ever.
Yep, we've beaten it good and hard into the ground. Time to go back to the Community thread and talk about Troy and Abed. Peace.
Nobody is against the precaution measures, the problem is it's too often left entirely up to women to take care of themselves, and is left at that. Women have been told for decades these sorts of things, but rapes are always happening. It's time to stop banging on the precautions drum, women know about precautions. And frankly, it's extremely saddening that they even have to take these precautions in the first place.
It kind of reminds me of how people see black youth who fall into gangs or get into other trouble, maybe don't do good in school, or in general struggle to get out of the ghetto. It's admirable so many people think "how do we get these kids out of the ghetto" and it's admirable some of the efforts put forward to help - but I don't feel like enough people are asking "Why do we have ghetto's? What can we do to get rid of them?". So many people just accept them as a part of life - like a hurdle some people (who aren't them) have to overcome, never considering just how crappy it would be if it was a hurdle they had to overcome too.
Are you sure about that?
None of those fit the category of "Guy I met in a bar the same day". That's not what those statistics mean.
Baconsammy
Banned
The 38 percent are the guys at the bar type. The other 27 percent are people you've never met. Not at a bar, not anywhere.
That's a good point.
Though I think part of it is that everybody agrees rape is terrible and "prevention" is one of the only places there's actually room for debate of some kind.
What makes you so sure, why do you think "friends and acquaintance" are people you meet in the bar the same day? Who would categorize it that way? Nobody, it would be a pointless exercise.
Further, I like how you just threw 'friends' under that bus of strangers you met in a bar too, huh?
Seriously man, I don't think you're a dumb person - think about it for a second.
Here, another definition
http://www.clarku.edu/offices/dos/survivorguide/definition.cfm
How is ANY of that 'dude I met in a bar few minutes/hours ago'?
edit: How about another one brah?
http://lmsurratt.tripod.com/section3.htm
Incendiary
Banned
Earlier in the thread I posted an anecdote where a friend of mine went through all the proper "precautions" and preventative measures and still got roofied.
Prevention is not an absolute. I know you do say it doesn't prevent everything, but saying "Prevention works" over and over again doesn't help your point. I could carry a switchblade with me and walk through a neighborhood 99 times and say that switchblade is preventing me from being robbed. On the 100th time, a guy jumps me with a gun and robs me. My switchblade isn't going to prevent anything in that case. Same thing can happen to women. They can "dress appropriately" and go out with friends and watch drinks...99 times it'll work fine. The 100th time, a friend of theirs they've known for a while offers to take a girl home, it's a guy they all know fairly well...he rapes the girl after he takes her home. The 100th time the prevention didn't work, no matter how prepared they thought they were.
We should live in a world where women can go out by themselves and not be afraid...not have to take preventative measures at all. They should be able to go out and dress how they want and not be "asking for it." Yes, you personally may think blaming women and saying she was asking for it because of what she wore is wrong, dumb, and idiotic, but the article this thread is about clearly shows there are plenty of men out there that don't think this is the case. And THAT's what we should be focusing on, fixing these warped views some men have instead of adding more precautions to what all women should do.
This, this, a thousand times this. This is a great post and way more eloquent than I could ever put it.
Dude Abides
Banned
It says "friend or acquaintance." You're just making shit up.
Oh, but you did make that up. Unless you care to show me where "a bunch of other people" told you that "if you suggest taking precautions can lower your chance of being raped, you're a misogynistic shit that blames female victims", because that did not happen in this thread.
Baconsammy
Banned
Wrong again. Date rape is by law classified as an "acquaintance rape". Meeting someone at a bar and getting rufied, for example, is labeled Date Rape. Meeting someone at a bar, both of you getting drunk, and then him having sex with you without your consent (minus rufies) is also date rape. In 47% of rapes, both the victim and the perpetrator had been drinking.
Are you implying that I created date rape laws/statutes?
No prevention is an absolute though, isn't it?
Devolution
Member
Shouldn't have worn that dress. Shouldn't have had the evening shift. Shouldn't have parked in that parking garage.
Baconsammy
Banned
My wife doesn't jog at night only alongside me because I'm a misogynist. She does so because she's not a fucking idiot.
Dude Abides
Banned
No. I'm stating that you are inventing your own definition of what that that summary means by "friend or acquaintance."
Since you bring it up, rape statutes don't distinguish between stranger/acquaintance/friend/date rape, so you don't know what you're talking about on that score either.
Devolution
Member
The fact that you'd say something like this without a trace of irony proves my point. Good job. Rape victims are idiots. You are a victim blamer.
Well as long as we've established that women who get raped when jogging alone are idiots.
Wait, your anecdote about a rape being prevented was suppose to address that rape prevention doesn't work?
Victims are fucking idiots. At least now you're being honest with us about how you feel.
soul creator
Member
I think that's a bit shortsighted. There's tons of discussion that can be had about things like sexual attitudes, gender roles, male privilege, and yes, "rape culture". All of this can lead to tons of interesting and productive discussion beyond "rape is bad".
I guess the problem is that these are more difficult topics to think about (and we're often not really taught to look at things from alternate perspectives, or as complex systems), so it's mentally much easier to just fall back into old habits of "er, don't talk to strangers! just say no to drugs!" type advice.
Vermillion
Banned
To be fair, prior to something damaging, we characterize some actions as idiotic, even though after the fact, we would never blame the victim for their actions...
A toxic relationship, for a lesser example
Some being shot when running in a bad neighborhood
In fact, we can take his example with the exclusion of rape, and mean any physical threat in general. So we get warnings not to go out past certain times.
Baconsammy
Banned
The legal system has consistently aimed to define and prosecute date rape cases in such a way as to protect the rights of all involved parties and to maximize the achievement of justice in date rape cases. Each state has their own laws regarding date rape, which are influenced by society, public policy, law makers, and date rape cases. Many states have adopted the following definition of date rape: "sexual intercourse which is accomplished against a person's will by means of force, violence, duress, menace, or fear of immediate injury." The additions of the terms "duress" and "menace" are important, as they include implied or perceived threats of force and verbal force.
There ya go, taking it to the dumbest extreme possible again. Done engaging with you. It's pointless.
Shouta
Member
That's not really the problem with these discussions, it's the aggressive posting to knock down arguments rather than side-step or use it to lead into solving the real issues. You don't get conversations by making the person you talk to put up their defenses, just arguments.
Devolution
Member
To be fair this shit gets distilled down into the same line of crap.
Don't be a woman and do things.
And Mr. Sammy here just hung himself with his own rope.
Baconsammy
Banned
I don't jog alone at night either. I guess I hate me too, right?
Vermillion
Banned
I would disagree. Although, if the woman in question is reasonably able to defend herself, physical risks become lessened.
Ok since Devo isn't answering my question about the root causes of rape and what should be done about it, I'll do my best to give my opinions on the matter. Don't flame me too hard, just trying to be objective here.
It seems to me the number one issue in this country when it comes to sex is that it seems like no one is even comfortable discussing the matter like adults, and feel the need to get shit-faced to even breach the subject. People go to these clubs and parties primarily to hook up, male and female, make no mistake about it. For clarity's sake I am NOT saying that these women can't claim rape because they went looking for sex, just to preempt that argument. They can of course legitimately change their mind at any point.
So now we have a bunch of men and women(more accurately boys and girls, as this is not adult behavior) looking to hook up who are completely drunk and entirely incapable of make any significant decision that requires reasoning skills beyond the level of a 3 year old. The whole social situation is a fucking recipe for disaster. It's too loud for people to talk, impossible for people to make their intentions clear, it's just a total mess. Then you add in the small percentage of sociopaths who are actively out to rape people and shit blows up.
The argument that there is some monolithic misogynistic rape culture intent on keeping women down seems kind of bizarre to me, as this very article admits that it is the women who are the ones who engage in the most slut shaming and victim blaming. Sure I guess there could be misogynistic women, but to me it mostly seems like it's just a culture that is completely immature and unable to handle the topic of sex in a responsible way.
Point is, when you put a bunch of horny people with raging mind altering hormones in a room with tons of booze and god know what other mind altering substances, nothing good will come of it. The culture needs to get to a point where that is no longer necessary for people to relate on such a basic level.
It seems to me the number one issue in this country when it comes to sex is that it seems like no one is even comfortable discussing the matter like adults, and feel the need to get shit-faced to even breach the subject. People go to these clubs and parties primarily to hook up, male and female, make no mistake about it. For clarity's sake I am NOT saying that these women can't claim rape because they went looking for sex, just to preempt that argument. They can of course legitimately change their mind at any point.
So now we have a bunch of men and women(more accurately boys and girls, as this is not adult behavior) looking to hook up who are completely drunk and entirely incapable of make any significant decision that requires reasoning skills beyond the level of a 3 year old. The whole social situation is a fucking recipe for disaster. It's too loud for people to talk, impossible for people to make their intentions clear, it's just a total mess. Then you add in the small percentage of sociopaths who are actively out to rape people and shit blows up.
The argument that there is some monolithic misogynistic rape culture intent on keeping women down seems kind of bizarre to me, as this very article admits that it is the women who are the ones who engage in the most slut shaming and victim blaming. Sure I guess there could be misogynistic women, but to me it mostly seems like it's just a culture that is completely immature and unable to handle the topic of sex in a responsible way.
Point is, when you put a bunch of horny people with raging mind altering hormones in a room with tons of booze and god know what other mind altering substances, nothing good will come of it. The culture needs to get to a point where that is no longer necessary for people to relate on such a basic level.
Baconsammy
Banned
And it's just best not to be out alone at night in some areas. Male or female.
And oddly enough while looking up rape laws etc, there are numerous women's sites that discuss ways to prevent situations in which acquaintaince rapes can occur. I doubt these are self-hating women. Just intelligent. And given that 45 percent of acquaintance rapes involve BOTH people drinking to excess(being drunk), going to bars/parties with a designated non-drinker is recommended.
You were shot down by several posters about why taking something to a logical extreme is perfectly valid, yet you keep acting like this is an invalid way to argue. Before throwing around the term "fucking idiot" about anyone, you should probably get a clue.
Have fun ignoring me because you don't know how to argue. You weren't addressing my points anyway, just dodging.
He's referring to you specifying a particular weight to the amount of date rape that is conducted by a person you barely know and met in a bar.
Lets put this is in more perspective, and I'll even give you like, wayyyy more than you deserve. Lets say 1/2 of that 38% statistic is 'guy I met in a bar that night'. That makes out to being a quarter of all rapes. That's still 75% of rapes conducted by friends, family, and now people you know at least a decent amount - people you generally put a bit of trust in.
KNOWING this, can you not see how banging on the prevention drum is futile, how it is an exercise in victim blaming, or at the very least shifting the burden on to the would be victims themselves? How it's an abhorrent message to be sending? How every girl is already told 10 times a day about how to avoid those rare encounters where they have something they can do to actually prevent the rape? Talking about prevention is played out.
Let me ask you a question, what do you think is more important - a women taking the burden on herself and focusing on prevention, or society as a whole working on changing the attitude we have towards rape so it occurs less often?
- Status