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Konami's fall from grace

IrishNinja

Member
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for decades, Konami was easily a top 5 third party dev/publisher, one no viable system wanted to be without: their offerings ranged from coin-op to nearly every console across numerous generations, as well as genres...they even turned licensed games to gold in an era when that was a rare miracle. I seriously doubt any of you could visit GAF's appreciation thread (oddly locked now) and not find at least one titles you'd call a classic.

we've talked a great deal about the fall of japanese development (both in terms of sales and influence) across this gen, but i don't think any one company - even Square, who i find very analogous here - fell nearly as far as Konami did across our last (albeit elongated) generation.

In the space of 10 years, we went from Silent Hill 3 to HD Collection, Dawn of Sorrow to Mirrors of Fate, Suikoden V to Tierkreis, etc (I swear I'm trying not to bog this thread down with MGS4 bashing...). The Rebirth games & some of their better HD collections were literally highlights for me, and given that only a while back, they were on a short list of companies I'd try out a title from day 1 with little prior knowledge...that's a terrible thing, because it cements the notion that their best days are clearly behind them.

Of all the studios with a laundry list of franchises, how did Konami go from simply missing the boat on music games to literally standing on one leg (Kojima's studio)? Not only do they not seem to know much about their former greatness, they seem barely able to make games at all. Many here take the piss with Capcom, but they at least held it down earlier on with stuff like Dead Rising, Lost Planet etc and maintained a revival of fighting games...while Konami became so inept, they ate & shat out Hudson Soft, apparently unable to even manage that properly.

So, what exactly happened? Factors involved that I could come up with:

  • The switch to HD development hit (and in some cases, continues to hit) many japanese developers hard - i've read numerous threads on here about mismanagement & archaic ideas about not wanting to share game engines etc, but clearly the increase in budget didn't bring an increase in profit (or more sensibly, revenue streams) required, killing some small studios and leaving others fearful of making the kind've game many on here value, vs the perception of developing for the west (i apologize, as this bit is clearly a thread in itself, and i'm aware i'm vastly oversimplifying)

  • Arcades collapsed, but that must've been felt in the PS2/late PS1 gen moreso...they're presumably still eating off of pachinko machines

  • Bleeding talent, which ties directly to the first point - but i honestly don't know what teams they still have there, and what those are capable of. Iga seems to be locked in a basement; Murayama's long gone but presumably Sakiyama's still there?

seriously, there has to be more to it than that, because again many japanese devs were hit hard by all 3 of these factors - so why does Konami seem worse off than so many others, even those on their (prior) tier? They still employ thousands of people, and sit on several billion...so what was different about their structure or business model that brought us to the point of their E3 "highlights" of recent years?
 
No big contra (4 was a silent release), no turtles, no international superstar soccer, no more good games.

They put al their effort in PES and Metal Gear, which is why people don't care anymore. Pes is failling and MGS is getting old for alot of gamers...
 

Skunkers

Member
Indeed, what happened?

So many memories. I'd be lying if I said they were the Japanese company whose output I miss the most (I probably most miss Square and SNK), but they are probably a damn solid number three. I really hope they can turn around next gen and bring the heat... or at least bring the classics.
 

IrishNinja

Member
They make Megaman right?

goddammit Strife, i was too late to stop this joke

Konami.
Midway.
Data East.
Capcom.
EA.

If your game had these logos, I would buy it. Now? Almost the opposite.

pretty much the OP more concisely, yeah

Just make another canon Suikoden. I don't care about anything else from them.

as a Suikoden fan, i look at V like i look at Phantasy Star IV: it's as fine an ending as the series looks to get, and the people still around do not seem up to the task of topping it, so while it pains me, it might be for the better than i just assume the series proper stopped there
 

Riposte

Member
They just need to make more games. Like have Arc make another Contra, or "Hard Corps". Shit, that's basically all I want from them really.
 
To be honest, I can't think of another Konami game I like besides MGS and Suikoden. If it weren't for MGS, they might as well not exist.
 
Konami's 2013 North American lineup:

1. PC DanceDanceRevolution Classroom Edition 01/08/13 North America
2. PlayStation 3 / Xbox 360 Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's Decade Duels Plus 02/12/13 North America
3. iPhone/iPod DDR Dance Wars 02/14/13 North America
4. PlayStation 3 / Xbox 360 Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance 02/19/13 North America
5. 3DS Castlevania: Lords of Shadow - Mirror of Fate 03/05/13 North America
6. iPhone/iPod / Android PowerPros 2013 World Baseball Classic 03/29/13 North America
7. PlayStation 3 / Xbox 360 Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain / Ground Zeroes? TBA 2013 North America
8. PlayStation 3 / PC / 360 Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2 TBA 2013 North America
9. PlayStation 3 / PC / 360 / Wii U Pro Evolution Soccer 2014 November 23rd 2013 North America

Up to six non-mobile titles.

The once great Konami...reduced to this.

Castlevania, PES, and Metal Gear. That's all Konami has left.
 

Defuser

Member
They basicially a MGS company now becasue its the only franchise that makes them money.

Suikoden is dead.
PES is irrevelant.
Power Pro only matters in Japan.
Castlevania most likely to be dead soon.
Silent Hill is dead.
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
RIP Hudson. ;__;7

Since they cancelled Bomberman for the 3DS he hasn't had a proper game since. All I could find was a puzzle game spinoff released for iOS back in 2011.
 

kevinski

Banned
I can't help but wonder if certain companies would be healthier if their North American sectors were granted more power. If Japanese game development is trailing western game development, then how does it make sense to allow these companies to primarily operate out of Japan? Why not turn over some of that power to the regions in which the quality and sales are better?
 

Takao

Banned
Yep, people bitch and rail Square but that at least shows they're still a relevant company in the industry. No one has really cared to call out Konami. Every one of their franchises have seen better days, and they've failed to build up new IPs to replace the ones that are aging. Some of their business tactics are just bizarre as well. They were on a kick a few years back on wanting to revive dead IPs from other companies (Little King's Story, X-Blades, Ninety Nine Nights, etc.) as though they'd do any better.
 

squall23

Member
Meanwhile, they're making a killing by selling songpacks for Jubeat Plus and Reflec Beat Plus on iOS.

Quite frankly, my favourite part of Konami are their music games and they're as high quality as ever.
 

Superflat

Member
I think Konami as a company just put less into their game studios as time went on, since they're doing a variety of things that give them steady business that's not in game development, and a lot of that market shifted this generation. As long as they can keep producing Metal Gear, outsourced Silent hills and movie deals, I imagine they're quite content with that.
 
as a Suikoden fan, i look at V like i look at Phantasy Star IV: it's as fine an ending as the series looks to get, and the people still around do not seem up to the task of topping it, so while it pains me, it might be for the better than i just assume the series proper stopped there
They need to take a page from Falcom's Kiseki series and realize that there is a market for deep, story and world driven games. I feel like very few Suikoden fans want or expect some huge, graphically impressive Suikoden VI. Make a quality canon title for the 3DS/Vita with an emphasis on the awesome setting they've already created, and I think they would see a very supportive response.
 
Meanwhile, they're making a killing by selling songpacks for Jubeat Plus and Reflec Beat Plus on iOS.

Quite frankly, my favourite part of Konami are their music games and they're as high quality as ever.

Did they ever have a compelling reason as to why they never pursued Beatmania in America while trying their hardest to kill off the competition?
 

FaceDa

Banned
They basicially a MGS company now becasue its the only franchise that makes them money.

Suikoden is dead.
PES is irrevelant.
Power Pro only matters in Japan.
Castlevania most likely to be dead soon.
Silent Hill is dead.

It's also why Kojima is basically not allowed to make anything else even though he says every single time THIS MGS GAME IS MY LAST

Kojima is Snake and he's trapped in the war economy
 

IrishNinja

Member
yeah, bringing Hudson down with them is pretty unforgivable for me, too

They basicially a MGS company now becasue its the only franchise that makes them money.

Suikoden is dead.
PES is irrevelant.
Power Pro only matters in Japan.
Castlevania most likely to be dead soon.
Silent Hill is dead.

this feels directly tied into the overarching discussion of unrealistic expectations: if they want COD #'s out of largely niche titles (with loyal fanbases, granted) they need to budget for those #'s, not expect millions like Namco did from Splatterhouse just because they threw more at it.

I mean, perfect example: there's a hole in the 3DS library, with its lack of Igavania: how could reusing assets like those typically do have cost enough to make it cost prohibitive? they tried to expand it a bit with Mercury Rising, but i'd be surprised of LOS 2 reaches the level they'd be content with...so why aren't they still at these? or is it not so much cost but lack of existing internal development remaining?
 

Raxus

Member
This is how I feel now that they've shitted on Castlevania.

What happened to Iga. Last time I saw him was at the Konami 2010 press briefing and he was depressed as hell.

At least Konami made the wise, albeit last minute, decision to had MGR to Platinum.
 

Hatten

Member
Is there any Japanese 3rd party/publisher that isn't going down either financially or in quality?

Platinum Games is the only exception I know, any others?
 
yeah, bringing Hudson down with them is pretty unforgivable for me, too

Bloody Roar 5 on hardware that could actually deal with transforming characters and made by a dev team that clearly didn't have priorities elsewhere would have been nice this gen. Alas...
 
Is there any Japanese 3rd party/publisher that isn't going down either financially or in quality?

Platinum Games is the only exception I know, any others?

Oh there are lots....From Software, Atlus, etc.

You just tend to hear about the ones that ARE struggling.
 

HYDE

Banned
Konami for me was always simultaneous with Castlevania, Contra, Gradius, and Metal Gear.

This generation has given me Metal Gear Solid 4, Peace Walker, and Rising. It has also given me Castlevania Lords of Shadow and it's upcoming sequel. I also enjoyed Mirror of Fate. I'd love a Life Force and Contra sequel, but I'd also be happy with remakes of the original two Metal Gear MSX games...Konami is doing just fine in my eyes.

It would also be nice to get Bloodlines, Contra 1, Dracula X, Rocket Knight, and Sparkster 1 and 2 on WiiV/U e-shop though.
 

Superflat

Member
Is there any Japanese 3rd party/publisher that isn't going down either financially or in quality?

Platinum Games is the only exception I know, any others?

Hmm I'd say Capcom, even though it's pretty spotty.
From Software with Dark Souls is definitely solid, Atlus too.

edit: beaten
 
Yeah, as much as people (rightfully) grill Capcom and Square, Konami's been really fucking up.

Sparkster got a shitty C-tier sequel, Suikoden's chilling in pachislot hell with Goemon, Castlevania isn't doing all that hot, and Silent Hill was arguably handled even worse than Resident Evil this gen.

Some of their outsourced stuff has been good, I guess. The Rebirth games, Contra 4 and Hard Corps were all pretty good. Even still, what the hell, Konami.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Yep, people bitch and rail Square but that at least shows they're still a relevant company in the industry. No one has really cared to call out Konami. Every one of their franchises have seen better days, and they've failed to build up new IPs to replace the ones that are aging. Some of their business tactics are just bizarre as well. They were on a kick a few years back on wanting to revive dead IPs from other companies (Little King's Story, X-Blades, Ninety Nine Nights, etc.) as though they'd do any better.

yeah, XIII's a mess and they've clearly taken a dive too, but they still put out stuff like TWEWY and Crisis Core last gen, so while the analogy's there for me - i don't blind-buy anything from either company anymore - at least Square still seems operational

Meanwhile, they're making a killing by selling songpacks for Jubeat Plus and Reflec Beat Plus on iOS.

Quite frankly, my favourite part of Konami are their music games and they're as high quality as ever.

this is news to me - interesting to hear they're making something over there, and that music games found a home of sorts. are we talking licensed music?

They need to take a page from Falcom's Kiseki series and realize that there is a market for deep, story and world driven games. I feel like very few Suikoden fans want or expect some huge, graphically impressive Suikoden VI. Make a quality canon title for the 3DS/Vita with an emphasis on the awesome setting they've already created, and I think they would see a very supportive response.

absolutely, and i'd fear their current management might think fans want something with FF XIII esque production values, when some of my favorites from the series usually looked almost a gen prior; it was never about that part of the presentation (though the music was usually top tier). i don't know if PSN/XBLA is the right scope but i think you're spot on with going for a quality handheld release.

This generation has given me Metal Gear Solid 4, Peace Walker, and Rising. It has also given me Castlevania Lords of Shadow and it's upcoming sequel. I also enjoyed Mirror of Fate. I'd love a Life Force and Contra sequel, but I'd also be happy with remakes of the original two Metal Gear MSX games...Konami is doing just fine in my eyes.

not to knock your tastes, but 4 was a mess by me, PW was good but its best moments were in the shadows of 3 (and we're still talking about the one leg they have to stand on), and Rising wasn't them. CV wasn't my cup of tea but i do intend to give it another go before 2

+1 on the VC hopes, and a Life Force Rebirth would've been awesome too
 

HYDE

Banned
I forgot to mention Silent Hill as being simultaneous to Konami for me, but I haven't really been enticed by the games like Capcom's Resident Evil series.
 

Takao

Banned
Bloody Roar 5 on hardware that could actually deal with transforming characters and made by a dev team that clearly didn't have priorities elsewhere would have been nice this gen. Alas...

Hudson was actually trying to make a new Bloody Roar, but Konami killed that along with all of their other titles.

Is Konami facing financial issues? It seems so because, outside of MGS and they already stablished IPs, they don't try to bring a big new IP.

AFAIK no. They have other businesses that keep them going.

They need to take a page from Falcom's Kiseki series and realize that there is a market for deep, story and world driven games. I feel like very few Suikoden fans want or expect some huge, graphically impressive Suikoden VI. Make a quality canon title for the 3DS/Vita with an emphasis on the awesome setting they've already created, and I think they would see a very supportive response.

Konami saw this:

[PSP] Suikoden: Centennial Tapestry (Konami) - 61.784 / 101.779

and probably went "NOPE" (Yes, I know it's a spinoff)
 

Acosta

Member
Is Konami facing financial issues? It seems so because, outside of MGS and they already stablished IPs, they don't try to bring a big new IP.

Konami is doing fine as a company, but traditional videogames is just a part of their business nowadays, they are huge in the social game space in Japan, and they have profitable business with Packinko & Slot and Health & Resorts business.

Just an example:

https://www.konamigaming.com/news/1...-incs-kcms-to-replace-its-current-system.html
 
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