I'm not a competitive player so I can't offer an opinion on this myself, but the folks on Smashboards seem pretty happy about it.
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Smash Bros. 4 3DS/Wii U has major metagame changes regarding edge grabbing
- Thread starter Fiktion
- Start date
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
I have no idea what this means but I like it.
This is an awesome change, I believe. My say in the matter on SmashBoards;
Ledge stalling is a big issue in competitive Brawl. If you're fast enough, you can let go, send out an aerial attack (or two) and re-grab the ledge all while still invincible. This is done a lot in tournaments, especially by Meta Knight.
Ledge stalling is a big issue in competitive Brawl. If you're fast enough, you can let go, send out an aerial attack (or two) and re-grab the ledge all while still invincible. This is done a lot in tournaments, especially by Meta Knight.
Hero of Legend
Member
Sonic the Edgehog?
I really can't envision a scenario where Sakurai's winging it and came up with this on his own. This is most likely a change that will mainly affect competitive players and, even though he's probably not taking input directly from pro players, the dev team as a whole must be aware of some issues that were present in competitive play.
It would appear to be a change aimed at competitive play, because casuals like me have no idea what the fuck he's talking about while the tryhards seem pretty chuffed.
If I had to guess, I'd say Namco had a hand in this.
This looks fine from a competitive perspective.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
This is really big guys but I dont think we can tell what it actually does until we either see video of it or do it ourselves in the game.
Shoulda been the first post
This is totally a competitive play thing - it's barely noticable in casual play. Edge-guarding was this weird part of the game that slowed down matches.
theprodigy
Member
You have no idea about how its going to be implemented either.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
These changes serm to point toward more complex gameplay...I like this...
I know people.
Very cool. I always had the assumption that Sakurai didnt care about the competitive scene.
sackferret
Neo Member
This is awesome news! Hopefully this means the game will be more competitive, like Melee, rather than Brawl's more slow gameplay.
It says right in the description. Edgehogging exists but its window of usefulness is dependent on other factors.
Based on the E3 footage, characters die faster than ever in Smash 4, so I think this is going to be fine even in the worst scenario.
Taking what masihiro sakurai says at face value is a path that leads to ruin.
Gotta go fast.
PezDispenser
Banned
Except for the part where the entire first post was littered with examples of competitive players showing optimism and approval over these changes, and the fact that this generally reflects the reaction of the tournament community.
Pop-O-Matic
Banned
If competitive players are loving this, then that means Sakurai will probably drop it before the game actually comes out.
8/10, good job
Sigismundo
Member
The game as a whole seems to be a balance between Melee and Brawl.
Mushroomer25
Member
Wow. This is the sort of cool technical addition that I really didn't expect to see in the Miiverse posts, and if the super-hardcore community is excited - I guess I am as well. I want this Smash to have honest competitive legs, and it's moves like this that are hugely encouraging.
Poltergust
Member
Cross-posting my interpretation of Sakurai's statements from the OT:
Trumping ledge grabs: I think what GooeyHeat said is accurate. In fact, it's the only thing that makes sense in this context. Think about it, there have been only four possible situations when a recovering character interacts with a character at the edge (ignoring tether recoveries):
1) The edgehogger is invincible, and the recovering character attempts to hit them with an attack. Due to the invincibility, the edgehogger stays on the edge and the recovering character falls.
2) The edgehogger is invincible, and the recovering character falls towards the ledge without doing an attack. The edgehogger remains on and the recovering character falls.
3) The edgehogger is vulnerable, and the recovering character hits them with an attack while recovering and grabs the ledge.
4) The edgehogger is vulnerable, and the recovering character falls to the ledge without throwing out an attack. The recovering character falls.
#4 is the only one that makes sense in the context of trumping. In #1 and #2 the edgehogger invincible, and in #3 the recovering character makes it onto the ledge. #4 is the only one that can be changed. Instead of the recovering character falling past the edge, they will now instead "trump" the edgehogger.
Air time and accumulated damage will determine your period of invincibility while hanging on an edge: Once again, I agree with what GooeyHeat said.
Basically, less airtime and/or less damage would equal less invincibility frames, while more air time and more damage would equal more invincibility frames. Also, when I say "air time", I'm specifically referring to time spent in the air, and nothing else. Time spent grabbing the edge or tethering to it does not count. Furthermore, this air time counter gets reset the moment either the character touches the ground or when they grab the edge (tethering would just halt the counter, instead of resetting it).
I have no idea what kind of formula Sakurai is using to calculate the amount of time a character remains invincible when hanging on a ledge, but I think it's probable that air time would have more weight to it than damage taken. In fact, damage taken would most likely have a minuscule effect on the amount of invincibility frames until you reach death percentages (like 130%+). It needs to be like that or else people can abuse grabbing the edge for invincibility when at high percentages without needing to be in the air for a long period of time.
Furthermore, there's gonna obviously be a cap on the effect air time and damage taken have on the amount of invincibility frames. Otherwise, characters would remain invincible for far too long. This is a complete shot in the dark, but I'm going to assume that at least 6 seconds of continuous air time with damage at 250%+ will give you the maximum amount of invincibility. How much that is is anyone's guess, though.
Grab controls will no longer be affected by whether you have above or below 100% damage: In previous games, there were two different kinds of moves that you can do when on a ledge. One when you're below 100%, and one when you are above or equal to 100%. The moves available to you when you are below 100% were always fast, but they were usually weak (in the case of the ledge attack) and had little invincibility frames. The moves when you are at or above 100% are typically the complete opposite of that, in which they are slow, but do a lot of damage (again, in the case of the ledge attack) and have a decent amount of invincibility.
Since he said these moves are no longer affected by percentage (and I also don't think that Sakurai would take out any moves), I'm led to believe that the player can decide which moves they want to do. This opens a lot more possibilities to the recovering player. Most likely, a quick tap of the appropriate button will do the <100% version, while holding the button will do the >=100% version.
Trumping ledge grabs: I think what GooeyHeat said is accurate. In fact, it's the only thing that makes sense in this context. Think about it, there have been only four possible situations when a recovering character interacts with a character at the edge (ignoring tether recoveries):
1) The edgehogger is invincible, and the recovering character attempts to hit them with an attack. Due to the invincibility, the edgehogger stays on the edge and the recovering character falls.
2) The edgehogger is invincible, and the recovering character falls towards the ledge without doing an attack. The edgehogger remains on and the recovering character falls.
3) The edgehogger is vulnerable, and the recovering character hits them with an attack while recovering and grabs the ledge.
4) The edgehogger is vulnerable, and the recovering character falls to the ledge without throwing out an attack. The recovering character falls.
#4 is the only one that makes sense in the context of trumping. In #1 and #2 the edgehogger invincible, and in #3 the recovering character makes it onto the ledge. #4 is the only one that can be changed. Instead of the recovering character falling past the edge, they will now instead "trump" the edgehogger.
Air time and accumulated damage will determine your period of invincibility while hanging on an edge: Once again, I agree with what GooeyHeat said.
Basically, less airtime and/or less damage would equal less invincibility frames, while more air time and more damage would equal more invincibility frames. Also, when I say "air time", I'm specifically referring to time spent in the air, and nothing else. Time spent grabbing the edge or tethering to it does not count. Furthermore, this air time counter gets reset the moment either the character touches the ground or when they grab the edge (tethering would just halt the counter, instead of resetting it).
I have no idea what kind of formula Sakurai is using to calculate the amount of time a character remains invincible when hanging on a ledge, but I think it's probable that air time would have more weight to it than damage taken. In fact, damage taken would most likely have a minuscule effect on the amount of invincibility frames until you reach death percentages (like 130%+). It needs to be like that or else people can abuse grabbing the edge for invincibility when at high percentages without needing to be in the air for a long period of time.
Furthermore, there's gonna obviously be a cap on the effect air time and damage taken have on the amount of invincibility frames. Otherwise, characters would remain invincible for far too long. This is a complete shot in the dark, but I'm going to assume that at least 6 seconds of continuous air time with damage at 250%+ will give you the maximum amount of invincibility. How much that is is anyone's guess, though.
Grab controls will no longer be affected by whether you have above or below 100% damage: In previous games, there were two different kinds of moves that you can do when on a ledge. One when you're below 100%, and one when you are above or equal to 100%. The moves available to you when you are below 100% were always fast, but they were usually weak (in the case of the ledge attack) and had little invincibility frames. The moves when you are at or above 100% are typically the complete opposite of that, in which they are slow, but do a lot of damage (again, in the case of the ledge attack) and have a decent amount of invincibility.
Since he said these moves are no longer affected by percentage (and I also don't think that Sakurai would take out any moves), I'm led to believe that the player can decide which moves they want to do. This opens a lot more possibilities to the recovering player. Most likely, a quick tap of the appropriate button will do the <100% version, while holding the button will do the >=100% version.
theprodigy
Member
someone who manages to get consistently gimped in Brawl is going to get gimped consistently in SSB4 barring another huge slowdown in game speed, because unless you're playing terrible characters like Link and Ganondorf you should make it back even if you eat 50% doing so
This could be a really great change to the metagame. If forces the player, who launches his opponent over the edge, to be more aggressive and following over the edge to really finish him off. Just standing near the edge and wait for him to return, could be no longer an option, since the other player will properly trump him over the ledge. Since he spend more time in the air and has properly a higher percentage.
This will encourage much more risk and reward scenarios, offensive play-style and of course defuse planking. But most importantly Sakurai and his team address an problem of the competitive-community. This means, they are watching into the scene and support competitive gaming.
This will encourage much more risk and reward scenarios, offensive play-style and of course defuse planking. But most importantly Sakurai and his team address an problem of the competitive-community. This means, they are watching into the scene and support competitive gaming.
Another good idea is the disabling of the 100% threshold. Reaching the edge with a high percentage and another player guarding it, is already hard enough. Giving the player also a disadvantage to get back on the stage, is over pushing him after the hard work of recovering.
Before this change the launching player had a too big advantage, since he got four options. Do nothing and wait for the other player to return (no risk, no reward), attack the player at the edge (low risk, high reward), guard the edge (low risk, high reward) or go after him over the edge (high risk, high reward). Waiting for the player always was a save and still rewarding option, since the launched players was always in the disadvantage and only could end the edge-game, if he successfully worked his way though the three defense stands (over the edge, at the edge, returning from the edge) and was finally on the stage again (to possible get launched again and begin the punching bag cycle).
Now the the edge-game ends earlier. If the launched player is near the edge, he already successfully recovered and gets his options back. Which is in my opinion already enough hard work to accomplish. It also forced the launching player to go over the edge and take the high risk and high reward options, since the other become more unattractive (low risk, low reward).
It also speeds up the gameplay. Players no longer will simply wait at the edge and do nothing, which always was a good low risk and high reward option. And the whole punching bag cycle will get defused. By this i mean following: players gets launched, while the other player waits at the edge, he recovers, gets launched again to his disadvantages, recovers again, repeat until the launched player fails or the other player makes a big, stupid mistake.
Before this change the launching player had a too big advantage, since he got four options. Do nothing and wait for the other player to return (no risk, no reward), attack the player at the edge (low risk, high reward), guard the edge (low risk, high reward) or go after him over the edge (high risk, high reward). Waiting for the player always was a save and still rewarding option, since the launched players was always in the disadvantage and only could end the edge-game, if he successfully worked his way though the three defense stands (over the edge, at the edge, returning from the edge) and was finally on the stage again (to possible get launched again and begin the punching bag cycle).
Now the the edge-game ends earlier. If the launched player is near the edge, he already successfully recovered and gets his options back. Which is in my opinion already enough hard work to accomplish. It also forced the launching player to go over the edge and take the high risk and high reward options, since the other become more unattractive (low risk, low reward).
It also speeds up the gameplay. Players no longer will simply wait at the edge and do nothing, which always was a good low risk and high reward option. And the whole punching bag cycle will get defused. By this i mean following: players gets launched, while the other player waits at the edge, he recovers, gets launched again to his disadvantages, recovers again, repeat until the launched player fails or the other player makes a big, stupid mistake.
Professor Beef
Banned
Wow, I like this.
I think it's more that he doesn't prioritise the competitive side over the casual side - but this change mixes up the competitive side without notably hindering the casual side.
greycolumbus
The success of others absolutely infuriates me.
Did not expect this at all. This is awesome.
Don't see where all the positivity is coming from regarding this. If the average death percentage is closer to Brawl than Melee - this sucks. It's just another means of catering to new players. That in-and-of-itself isn't bad. But this decision in particular just sounds, on paper, like it will slow the pace of the gameplay down at all levels of play. Having the capacity to gimp is an awesome thing in Melee not just because it's satisfying to execute the setups - but because it keeps the pace of the gameplay high.
What needs to die in a fire is the gameplay system considering an edge hogging player "on the ledge" even while rolling away from it. I know they addressed this in Brawl a bit, but it's still prevalent enough to work as a tactic if I recall correctly.
*edit*
Also, OP doesn't know what "metagame" means.
What needs to die in a fire is the gameplay system considering an edge hogging player "on the ledge" even while rolling away from it. I know they addressed this in Brawl a bit, but it's still prevalent enough to work as a tactic if I recall correctly.
*edit*
Also, OP doesn't know what "metagame" means.
meltingparappa
Member
I guess this means there is no chance I will survive Cruel Brawl long enough to get the sticker anymore.
You really don't know how to take a design concept and apply it outside of a super general "all levels of play" "catering to new players" lens huh?
It's better to ask questions about design changes instead of making poor conclusions about ledge metagame implications and evolutions.
WTF are you even trying to express? What are you even criticizing? You don't even know. Nothing in that post implies absoluteness or fixity. Uh, yeah, if you're exploring any concept in this universe worth exploring - you apply some lens of generality to it in an attempt to envision its implications. Any other approach is parochial.
I know we're speaking on this with limited information, which is why my post has words like "if" and "sounds" in it. Sorry, if you need posts peppered with question marks throughout to make humility clear for you.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
I didn't see this thread being posted, so I'm very happy that Sakurai updated us with a SMASH system mechanic change which is awesome thing that he had share with us.
I'm afraid of one thing that Sakurai might take a step forward but take two step backwards with this mechanic change, but I will remain optimistic until we have the games in our hand. I'm looking forward to give it a try.
I'm afraid of one thing that Sakurai might take a step forward but take two step backwards with this mechanic change, but I will remain optimistic until we have the games in our hand. I'm looking forward to give it a try.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
I think I'm alone in thinking that ledge grabbing is the lamest / dumbest thing to ever exist in a fighting game. Watching a bunch of "skilled" players throw themselves off the edge for even the most pathetic knock offs over and over is absurd and cowardly to me lol.