I know it's so cheap right
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Smash Bros. 4 3DS/Wii U has major metagame changes regarding edge grabbing
- Thread starter Fiktion
- Start date
I know it's so cheap right
I'm sorry too. :-(
Poltergust
Member
I always thought that was less of a "gameplay system" and more like a glitch, particularly in Melee.
It was certainly more of a glitch and isn't really present in Brawl at all (though it's very easy to bring back as evidenced by Project M).
Regardless, as I said in the megathread, I'm cautiously optimistic about this change because while it seems to try to address the planking issue (Meta Knight stalling on the ledge with Up Airs and no way to hit him out of it) it also hurts edgehogging. Even if you think it's good that edgehogging is made more difficult, edgehogging already barely exists in Brawl in competitive play because of the recoveries and insane %s characters can live at. Edgehogging being harder only means getting earlier KOs won't happen as much and it'll again be more about who can knockout the other from on-stage rather than off-stage.
To add further onto that, edgeguarding was already "nerfed" enough in Brawl that I could see this change impacting general edgeguarding as well. The edgeguarder now won't really be able to take the ledge for positioning purposes to secure a KO -- unless they want to take the risk and potentially get stagespiked by a recovery.
So, unless recoveries don't autosnap and characters don't have magnet hands, this could be really bad for the edgeguarder and continue to benefit the one recovering. They have to know the recoveries need to be more difficult to get the ledge, right? They have to know the recoveries being worse than Brawl is necessary in order for this change to work well..... right?
Ehhhh... I can't imagine the way it works now isn't an intentional consequence of both game's coding. That would imply Sakurai and co. are just really bad programmers to let it skate twice in a row - even if the degrees vary. I think the degree of its effectiveness is more unintentional than the quirk itself.
*edit*
Revven what evidence is there that the way edge hogging works is a glitch?
Poltergust
Member
Yeah, that's one of the more questionable things that Project M brought back. I know that it's supposed to be like Melee, but it still retained Brawl-specific features like pivot-grabbing. That edge rolling glitch seems like more of a downgrade to me.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
Well I mean this will probably sound stupid, but any time I'd be fighting with my friends and roomates, I would purposefully NOT camp the ledge just so that they could get back on. I feel like the fun is completely removed from a kill by ledge camping. A proper kill in smash should be epic and methodical, perfect timing, perfect execution, etc etc. It's just such a lame way to win. I entered a brawl tournament once without ever actually playing brawl before (needless to say I was absolutely terrible, fox user on melee, did not acclimate fast lol), but I would get knocked off stage no more than like 5 virtual feet, and these motherfudgers were ALL throwing themselves off stage to get that ledge grab. I mean when that becomes the premise for your victory, it's just sad.
No one likes the people that spam haduken, I don't see why this is considered any better. I know it's just a video game, and I shouldn't take it to heart or anything, but man, it just totally annihilates any sense of honor or respect.
MisterHero
Super Member
How can I completely evade Landmasters now? =(
I wasn't saying the legitimate edge hog is a glitch (where you just grab the ledge at the right time and invincibility frames). I was referring to the rolling onto the stage part.
I forget the exact specifics on how it all works on the programming side of things but I remember that it's not just limited to the coding itself but the animations of the rolls also play a part in the edges being considered occupied. I'm not an expert on it by any means but I recall much of the ledge rolling animations for PM had to be edited to make ledge occupancy with rolls even work and I think it had to do with one of the bones on the character that interacts with the ledge. I wish I remembered more but I can't recall much more than that.
Glitch or oversight, same thing really, though.
lol
To me, not using all of the game's available tools during a match on purpose is the disrespectful thing to do, not the other way around.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
I call shenanigans, every fighting game lets you kick people when they're down, doesn't make it classy
Ledge hogging is about winning, nothing skillful about it. It becomes reflex for people. I don't even think it was ever implemented as a "tool" for people to use. The ledge exists for people to get back onto the platforms, not so that people can cheese their way through matches.I call shenanigans, every fighting game lets you kick people when they're down, doesn't make it classy
It's a bonus you get in Melee at the results screen. Remember those fun bonuses with the scores and etc? That's where the term came from, the bonus is officially called Edge Hog. Definitely intended to exist and be used.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
Egh, gross. I still don't think throwing yourself off a cliff should ever be considered a gameplay mechanic. I digress though, if it's there -_-. Should have been negative points. It's a scummy move.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
learn to win
Playing with an honor code for stuff like this will lead to L's...
As scummy as traping someone on the corner with fireballs?
sixteen-bit
Member
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
methink that you lost a lot because your friends are doing edge hogging often and you are following your honor code.
It's not scummy moves at all, since it's considered to be one of strategy moves because it can backfire on you if you tried to edge hogging at wrong time.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
I'd say more-so yeah, I've never really been trapped to the point where you can't roll out of it, and hell, at least you accumulate massive damage, and are guaranteed a fantastic death. Not some slow plummet to defeat at the hands of some onlookers chilling on the ledge when they don't need to be there. I try to avoid both though in general
Well I always did absolutely amazing in Melee, and I never had to use some BS tactics. Ledge hogging shows weakness and desperation. Definitely a cowards tactic.
chaobreaker
Member
You have to remember that the Smash Bros. games were never made to be competitive in the first place. No one in HAL/Sora made those invincibility frames while thinking of the potential for abuse by the players.
I call shenanigans, every fighting game lets you kick people when they're down, doesn't make it classy
Think again. You're even rewarded with a bonus for doing it in Melee.
EDIT: Edgehogged.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
Well my friends and I never ledge grabbed, it was only in tournament play that you would see it (at least in our click). I just find it amusing that when it's time to bring out your best, you cheese. And I find it annoying that it's reflex for these players.
I'd say more-so yeah, I've never really been trapped to the point where you can't roll out of it, and hell, at least you accumulate massive damage, and are guaranteed a fantastic death. Not some slow plummet to defeat at the hands of some onlookers chilling on the ledge when they don't need to be there. I try to avoid both though in general
Well I always did absolutely amazing in Melee, and I never had to use some BS tactics. Ledge hogging shows weakness and desperation. Definitely a cowards tactic.
To each it's own, but I just play too win. It also helps that my friends are real scums in smash and will try to kill you no matter what (even if we all are low/casual level players)
Also, since the first game only one player can be on the ledge at any given time, so there is no question they implemented that on purpose.
It really really depends on how they implement it. If they do something stupid like making the invul time go up indefinitely, then yes.
But if its something like the following I bet it could be very interesting:
default edge invul time = 60 frames (just throwin a number)
over 4 seconds on air = 100% invul time
less than 0.5 = 25% of the time.
I thought it was always hilarious and fun.
What would ever give you that idea?
someone post a gif of the p:m m2k vs armada both going for the edge at the same time.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
Hilarious and fun to me was grabbing someone as donkey kong, running off the stage, then throwing them under it, and somehow getting back on. Smash was a game that was brilliant to me because of the impact that perfect timing could have. Wedging yourself in that perfect position to connect with the perfect move, etc etc. Letting some guy fall to his death in that game is just sad. If he's able to get back on the platform, then you need to kill him more and make that death proper, if you hit him hard enough, then he's not going to get back on anyway. Ledge grabbing is lame.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
It's more likely that it would be worse than Brawl.
Velcro Fly
Member
It's so boring and unfun watching competitive melee and seeing a dude stall games out by pretty much camping out on the edge.
ShockingAlberto
Member
People that hate Brawl were always going to hate the new game. I am surprised you're only now realizing it.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
This x1234912783 Sometimes my friends would chill out near the ledge, don't get me wrong, and one of my fondest memories was of me doing foxes dash attack to get back on, and my friend timing his forward smash with Ice Climbers absolutely perfectly and just plastering me lol. Felt good man, I earned that death.
Even better when he would play as captain falcon, get a running start of like 5k miles an hour, fly 20 feet off stage to hit you with that knee, before you could even attempt to make a recovery, and get back on. Finishing the dirty work like a man lol. Man I miss melee
Solid Samus
Banned
#1 - the vast majority of matches do not play out like that
#2 - You want a game that's truly bogged down by overly defensive dull ass stall tactics? Brawl is the posterchild.
Why is that?
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
ChronotriggerJM
Member
Well you see back in my day...... real champions should aspire to be...... Samurai's had a code of honor....... In the Karate kid movies......
I got nothing. I'm just a firm believer in awesome impacts. I don't want to die because some scrub is chilling on MY ledge :/ I'm either instantly dead, or I'm too far to grab it anyway. There is almost never a reason for that person to be camped there, unless of course he's afraid I'll get back on, which means he had no idea how far he had hit me. Cowardly precaution.
Also should be noted, that as a fox user, a good majority of my kills were from backflipping people into the top of the screen, and watching them fly off in the distance. So ledges were not really a thing for me. So maybe I've got bias lol.
Solid Samus
Banned
That's one way to handwave away a valid argument.
A 'coward's tactic'. Jeez man. It's not a death sentence, it's something you can prepare for and work around, it's not always easy or applicable, etc. etc., certainly not some uber consistent instakilling gamebreaker
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
You do realize your insistence on using that term for people who use tactics you don't like is actually the proper usage for it?
ChronotriggerJM
Member
Agreed, not game breaking in the slightest. It's just lame lol. And as I mentioned, it's ridiculous seeing it become reflex. No fighting game should make that part of it's common regiment.
Step 1 - Smash
Step 2 - Throw yourself off the cliff and hold onto the ledge
Step 3 - Wait
These people that get in the habit of ledge grabbing end up doing it for every smash near the ledge lol, regardless of your current damage. It's just stupid and ridiculous.
Every game will have something that someone doesn't like. I just personally don't like it. I don't think it's a skilled maneuver, and it just seems like a desperate move. And I've had plenty of matches where I dominate the opponent without using it. I just think if you're a good enough player, you shouldn't be relying on something like that.
KittenMaster
Member
I want to feel hyped for this, but I can't help but feel I don't actually know how this work other than how I think it should work in my head and I don't mean conceptually, but how it actually works in practice and what the invulnerability frames are like now.
You can always hit them with your up b, is not like the edge gives them invulnerability for ever. Now, a player that times it right will kill you and good timing should be rewarded. That's one of the thing I dont like about melee, rolling makes the timing window much much bigger
ChronotriggerJM
Member
I agree that good timing should be rewarded, just not for something like that. I don't agree with invincibility frames. Just camp the ledge like everyone else, and get better at actual combat.
Keep in mind, the last Smash Brothers I got heavily into was Melee, and the need for ledge camping was much lower because mobility was much higher. It was always more fun for us to get out there and continue the kill instead of playing the waiting game. Melee was seemingly much more aggressive to me.
Well, he did remove tripping and stated that Smash Wii U would be between Melee and Brawl.
I'll trust that this will work out for the better in casual/competitive play.
Eh, those who don't edge hog efficiently and on point with their invincibility usually get stage-spiked, think of Wolf Flash, Dolphin Slash, Falcon Dive for an example. Almost any aerial attack would probably work too.
Edge hogging is something that's mostly effective when you get your opponent so far away that even when they up-b, they'll only be brushing the ledge. At this point you've done enough. Going off-stage to "finish them off" or whatever isn't a very viable option if you're Ike, Bowser, Olimar or Link: It's an extremely risky option that can easily mean an SD, because those characters aren't meant to be fully aerial based characters.
It isn't cheap or cowardly, it's something that requires timing to do effectively. If anyone is just hogging the edge after hitting an opponent not far from the stage, then they deserve the stage spike they're gonna get.
ChronotriggerJM
Member
You're absolutely right, and they do get stagespiked often lol. We can all agree to disagree, people can play how they will. I just do find it cowardly, and I think it detracts from the gameplay. No one should die that way, it's crummy lol. It's "smash" brothers dammit, give me a proper death.
Yup, like I said in another thread, people can play Melee for the rest of their lives.
The rest of us will have fun.