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[Anteo]

I agree that good timing should be rewarded, just not for something like that. I don't agree with invincibility frames. Just camp the ledge like everyone else, and get better at actual combat.

Keep in mind, the last Smash Brothers I got heavily into was Melee, and the need for ledge camping was much lower because mobility was much higher. It was always more fun for us to get out there and continue the kill instead of playing the waiting game. Melee was seemingly much more aggressive to me.

This is the part I dont understand. If you got hit and flew away from the stage, then the other player already won the combat part of that specific moment (so why would he need to get better? )
He just needs to close it out by not letting you come back. He can either chase you down or block your way back.

In SFIV, ryu can juggle you with shoryu > shoryu in the corner. So if I managed to combo you in the corner into shoryu and you only have a sliver of health, not going for the second shoryu is like not going for the edgehog "im going to wait for him to fall to the ground, mix him up on his wake up and get the kill" instead of just finishing it right there.

Not liking edgehogs in general? that's fine, there are people that refuse to chaingrab just because they believe is cheap (I would go for it, and I would go for 300% wobbling just to mess with you, i do agree it is kind of cheap). But implying that people use it because they are not good enough? that doesnt make sense

 

[Dr.Hadji]

So I've been thinking about this update

Smash 4 is gonna be worse than brawl ain't it

I'm sure Smash fans will love it. While Melee fans will hate it.

 

[Fiktion]

I'm sure Smash fans will love it. While Melee fans will hate it.

I don't get it. This update seems specifically designed to address the concerns of the competitive Melee lovers.

 

[Metal B]

I agree with ChronotriggerJM.
I have no problem with Edge-hogging as a tactic in Melee and Brawl and i also don't deny the skill you need to use it, but it still looks and feels off. A good competitive game is also an exciting looking one and watching player fighting over the edge, is the best part of Smash Brothers. The change could force people to more often go after other players, which couidl create much more exciting situations. And if the players doesn't feel like it, at least it takes less time now, to go back onto the stage. Edge-Guarding will still be there, but with SSB4 it becomes much more riskier.

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

This is the part I dont understand. If you got hit and flew away from the stage, then the other player already won the combat part of that specific moment (so why would he need to get better? )
He just needs to close it out by not letting you come back. He can either chase you down or block your way back.

In SFIV, ryu can juggle you with shoryu > shoryu in the corner. So if I managed to combo you in the corner into shoryu and you only have a sliver of health, not going for the second shoryu is like not going for the edgehog "im going to wait for him to fall to the ground, mix him up on his wake up and get the kill" instead of just finishing it right there.

Not liking edgehogs in genera? that's fine, there are people that refuse to chaingrab just because its cheap (I would go for it, and I would go for 300% wobbling just to mess with you). But implying that people use it because they are not good enough? that doesnt make sense

Well my mentality is that if he already won that standoff, why doesn't he just do it again to prove his/her point. It's just about the mindset that's involved, and as I mentioned, it's just a crappy way to die. I've had so many heated moments with my friends where it's a continuous barrage of back and forth tradeoffs, and you're both on edge knowing that the next slip will be your end. It's intense, and getting that kill is insanely satisfying, so much so, that whoever gets it will jump up out of there seat and yell something, everyone watching will be excited, and it's exhilarating. Definitely a high point in smash brothers.

I don't think I've ever seen someone get excited about a perfectly executed ledge camp. It's boring, and it leaves a sour taste in your mouth when you do lose to it.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

But implying that people use it because they are not good enough? that doesnt make sense

Pretty much.

The definition of scrub goes beyond "someone who lacks fighting game skills." It's also about the mental game - it also includes the any sort of mentality where you impose artificial limits on playstyle. Play to win! Use all your options available. And if you're aware of what the other player is doing, learn how to beat it.

 

[Timeaisis]

This seems like a pretty elegant solution to a much discussed problem. I like it, Sakurai. Way to go.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

So I've been thinking about this update

Smash 4 is gonna be worse than brawl ain't it

Go in with that mentality and maybe it won't be too bad. As long as the online is functional and has some decent features, I'll have some fun with this game.

Despite the many issues I have with Brawl's gameplay, I'd still be playing it if the online was halfway decent. Shit, I still play Smash 64 frequently and that's in a community of many laggers ;\ -- This Smash is all I've got if I don't want to deal with the same 12 characters for the foreseeable future unless the online Dolphin Melee/PM scene grow significantly.

It's so boring and unfun watching competitive melee and seeing a dude stall games out by pretty much camping out on the edge.

Which Smash game/s are exciting for you to watch?

 

[PsionBolt]

This sounds really cool. Little changes like this often have very far-reaching effects in how a game plays. I'm pretty excited.

 

[FlynnCL]

You're absolutely right, and they do get stagespiked often lol. We can all agree to disagree, people can play how they will. I just do find it cowardly, and I think it detracts from the gameplay. No one should die that way, it's crummy lol. It's "smash" brothers dammit, give me a proper death.

Hehe, I will admit that it's easily one of the most infuriating ways to get KO'd. The CPU's in Brawl actually do it quite often when they have the chance. Look at this!

 

[Hello.]

Because now you actually have to fight for an edge and keep your opponent away instead of just dropping down and grabbing it. Ironically it makes edgeguarding a more skilled tactic.

For example, one can still edgehog the edge. But depending on damage and options one may not opt for it. If Link is really far away and is trying to recover, Mario could grab the edge and then use an aerial attack to keep Link away.

Characters with multi-jump abilities (Jigglypuff notably) could also benefit extremely from this change, and she was one of the worst (if not THE worst) characters in Brawl.

Until we see exactly how the invincibility changes are implemented, we can't say for sure if this is a bad or good thing. But in general, most people (even competitive players), do not like edgehogging. You probably get the idea.

 

[Nabster92]

Agreed, not game breaking in the slightest. It's just lame lol. And as I mentioned, it's ridiculous seeing it become reflex. No fighting game should make that part of it's common regiment.

Step 1 - Smash
Step 2 - Throw yourself off the cliff and hold onto the ledge
Step 3 - Wait

These people that get in the habit of ledge grabbing end up doing it for every smash near the ledge lol, regardless of your current damage. It's just stupid and ridiculous.

If you get smashed hard enough where your only option to survive is barely making it back to the ledge, then it's not the players fault for taking away your only option instead of throwing out a helping hand to pick you up on the stage again due to some misguided sense of honor so you can beat them properly in your vision of manliness. Positioning yourself on the ledge when the other person is knocked off is just utilizing the options you have to efficiently achieve the objective of the game of killing the opponent. And like any other aspect of the game, if you don't time it properly, you end up getting punished for it yourself.

While I do agree that rolling off the ledge in melee makes it a lot easier than it should be, I don't completely discount it as a cowardly scrub tactic. If I get hit off at a low percent and still die to that, it's completely my fault for not utilizing the options I have effectively.

If you're playing friendlies with someone then sure, it's fine to honor some bro code between the players and don't just edgehog if you want to, but if you're playing in a tournament, you shouldn't expect mercy from people playing to win. Otherwise you're just being as naive as Goku fighting against Raditz in DBZ abridged, when he gets a hold of Raditz tail and repeatedly just lets go because Raditz says please, and then proceeds to get beat on more for no reason or reward.

 

[Revven]

I agree with ChronotriggerJM.
I have no problem with Edge-hogging as a tactic in Melee and Brawl and i also don't deny the skill you need to use it, but it still looks and feels off. A good competitive game is also an exciting looking one and watching player fighting over the edge, is the best part of Smash Brothers. The change could force people to more often go after other players, which couidl create much more exciting situations. And if the players doesn't feel like it, at least it takes less time now, to go back onto the stage. Edge-Guarding will still be there, but with SSB4 it becomes much more riskier.

Edgeguarding was already risky in Melee, especially off-stage. Brawl, on the other hand... is the opposite of that -- there's no real risk to edgeguarding in Brawl (unless you go crazy and actually deplete every recovery option you have available to you) because you can always make it back to the ledge (esp. if you're Meta Knight).

Do you watch much competitive Melee? Or, for that matter, did you watch Apex 2014's Melee top 8? There's plenty of off-stage play going on in competitive Melee. Brawl is where there's hardly any of that going on because Sakurai buffed recoveries to high heaven which in turn nerfed edgeguarding options. Melee and Brawl don't share much in common when it comes to ledge play -- it's very different.

Edit:

But in general, most people (even competitive players), do not like edgehogging. You probably get the idea.

Wtf this is not only wrong but a huge generalization. Competitive players LIKE edgehogging, maybe not the rolling up part that was in Melee, but definitely edgeguarding and what comes with that is also edgehogging. If you take out edgehogging completely, recovery is going to be even easier than Brawl. It's a balance so the person on-stage has the tools to deal with the person off-stage. The person recovering should have inherent disadvantages and that is one of them, getting edgehogged.

What competitive players don't like is planking (aka ledge stalling) which in Melee is only used by a select few people and more importantly, only used to gain positioning advantage and/or to get some breathing room to think. In Brawl, it's used to purposefully timeout the other guy because they literally can't do anything about it if the person planking is using Meta Knight and constantly Up Airing and then regrabbing the ledge. That's what competitive players don't like.

I've seen my fair share of casual players saying they don't like edgehogging and saying it's "cheap" and "lame", but it was intended to be in the game since Melee (as evidenced by the bonus result "Edge Hog"). I'll never understand how it's "cheap" when it is an edgeguarding option -- it is for positioning and to secure the KO where more often than not the person recovering could have come back. It's boring to wait at the ledge on-stage and just use a tilt or smash attack to knock them back off-stage, it's way flashier to grab the ledge and do an amazing aerial at the right time to secure the KO. And comp. players always vary their edgeguarding, you never see them do the same one each stock or same attempt each stock (unless it's guaranteed).

It's an option for the edgeguarder, I don't understand how that's bad, the person off-stage should be disadvantaged hugely -- it was your mistake for getting knocked off-stage, now you have to actually try to get back on.

 

[Balb]

Pretty much.

The definition of scrub goes beyond "someone who lacks fighting game skills." It's also about the mental game - it also includes the any sort of mentality where you impose artificial limits on playstyle. Play to win! Use all your options available. And if you're aware of what the other player is doing, learn how to beat it.

To this day there are people who claim throwing in Street Fighter is cheating. It blows my mind.

 

[Anteo]

Well my mentality is that if he already won that standoff, why doesn't he just do it again to prove his/her point. It's just about the mindset that's involved, and as I mentioned, it's just a crappy way to die. I've had so many heated moments with my friends where it's a continuous barrage of back and forth tradeoffs, and you're both on edge knowing that the next slip will be your end. It's intense, and getting that kill is insanely satisfying, so much so, that whoever gets it will jump up out of there seat and yell something, everyone watching will be excited, and it's exhilarating. Definitely a high point in smash brothers.

I don't think I've ever seen someone get excited about a perfectly executed ledge camp. It's boring, and it leaves a sour taste in your mouth when you do lose to it.

I think is a matter of perspective. In my case, if I am at a distance where I know I can barely make it back but at the same time my oponent can block the edge, then I know I'm already dead unless he mess ups. It's pretty much the same as another situation in SF, when you get knocked down and have almost no health (meaning if you wake up and block you will die of chip damage), you see players going close for a ex dragon punch on wake up to close it out, generally you cant do anything about that, the only way to survive is to hope they mess up. And that is not boring at all, it is just the closing moment of the match, the other player already won the mid game, and almost won the round he just needs to close it out.

 

[Anth0ny]

A great man once said "don't get hit".

Sakurai does not subscribe to that philosophy. While we don't know all the details yet, it seems like he is once again trying to reward the player who is losing. Higher percent? About to lose a stock? Here's more ledge invincibility! He's trying to make the player who is knocked off the stage stronger and live longer, as if Brawl wasn't slow paced enough. Did we really need a weaker ledge game than Brawl's? It was already virtually non existent in that game.

This just feels like another move to dumb down the game from Sakurai. "Hey, stop grabbing the ledge when someone is off the stage. That's not nice. Let them get back on!"

Meh. Just nerf meta knight.

 

[Vlade]

A great man once said "don't get hit".

Sakurai does not subscribe to that philosophy. While we don't know all the details yet, it seems like he is once again trying to reward the player who is losing. Higher percent? About to lose a stock? Here's more ledge invincibility! He's trying to make the player who is knocked off the stage stronger and live longer, as if Brawl wasn't slow paced enough. Did we really need a weaker ledge game than Brawl's? It was already virtually non existent in that game.

Meh. Just nerf meta knight.

a rubber band helps people play together, and imho doesnt break tourneys. Again, details pending, I'm happy about what I've heard.

 

[jackal27]

Oh man, this is great. So excited about this. I can't wait to what other minor tweaks have been made to the meta.

 

[theprodigy]

Well I mean this will probably sound stupid, but any time I'd be fighting with my friends and roomates, I would purposefully NOT camp the ledge just so that they could get back on. I feel like the fun is completely removed from a kill by ledge camping. A proper kill in smash should be epic and methodical, perfect timing, perfect execution, etc etc. It's just such a lame way to win. I entered a brawl tournament once without ever actually playing brawl before (needless to say I was absolutely terrible, fox user on melee, did not acclimate fast lol), but I would get knocked off stage no more than like 5 virtual feet, and these motherfudgers were ALL throwing themselves off stage to get that ledge grab. I mean when that becomes the premise for your victory, it's just sad.

No one likes the people that spam haduken, I don't see why this is considered any better. I know it's just a video game, and I shouldn't take it to heart or anything, but man, it just totally annihilates any sense of honor or respect.

haha, this is literally classic Sirlin scrub

A great man once said "don't get hit".

Sakurai does not subscribe to that philosophy. While we don't know all the details yet, it seems like he is once again trying to reward the player who is losing. Higher percent? About to lose a stock? Here's more ledge invincibility! He's trying to make the player who is knocked off the stage stronger and live longer, as if Brawl wasn't slow paced enough. Did we really need a weaker ledge game than Brawl's? It was already virtually non existent in that game.

This just feels like another move to dumb down the game from Sakurai. "Hey, stop grabbing the ledge when someone is off the stage. That's not nice. Let them get back on!"

Meh. Just nerf meta knight.

everyone, you get one guess for who he's referencing here

 

[EmCeeGramr]

A great man once said "don't get hit".

Sakurai does not subscribe to that philosophy. While we don't know all the details yet, it seems like he is once again trying to reward the player who is losing. Higher percent? About to lose a stock? Here's more ledge invincibility! He's trying to make the player who is knocked off the stage stronger and live longer, as if Brawl wasn't slow paced enough. Did we really need a weaker ledge game than Brawl's? It was already virtually non existent in that game.

This just feels like another move to dumb down the game from Sakurai. "Hey, stop grabbing the ledge when someone is off the stage. That's not nice. Let them get back on!"

Meh. Just nerf meta knight.

What if the person with more damage gets less invincibility?

 

[Revven]

What if the person with more damage gets less invincibility?

Then that would be peachy-keen.

 

[Pociask]

I don't really care about edgeguarding, but I'm cautiously optimistic that they're tuning things to be more competitive. Sounds like a pretty complicated system to implement, though - why not just make it so you can only grab the edge for a brief moment, and once you've grabbed the edge, you can't do it again for X seconds? Make it possible, but difficult, to edge guard, that is.

Developing whole systems that depend on arcane formulas for a type of fighting that occurs only in a specific place of stages seems kinda against the Smah Bros ethos (easy to learn, hard to master).

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

A great man once said "don't get hit".

Sakurai does not subscribe to that philosophy. While we don't know all the details yet, it seems like he is once again trying to reward the player who is losing. Higher percent? About to lose a stock? Here's more ledge invincibility! He's trying to make the player who is knocked off the stage stronger and live longer, as if Brawl wasn't slow paced enough. Did we really need a weaker ledge game than Brawl's? It was already virtually non existent in that game.

This just feels like another move to dumb down the game from Sakurai. "Hey, stop grabbing the ledge when someone is off the stage. That's not nice. Let them get back on!"

Meh. Just nerf meta knight.

lol isai quote

Let's not forget that he's also increasing the power to kill people at lower percentages and edge hogging was always lame anyway. In 64 it's pathetic how easy it is to gimp/edge hog people, depressingly pathetic. It's like the #1 way I die because people can't handle a high level player who is great at spacing, so they resort more often than not to edge hogs and gimps because apparently a victory is the most important thing to people; it trickles down into the overall player habits in the community because people see how effective it is without being too risky fighting off the ledge.

I don't want to make this an issue until we start seeing some gameplay, but it actually could benefit the game if it's not extreme in either direction. What if they made the invincibility frames similar to 64 for someone with higher health, but just decreased the frames if you're lower health? On paper, sounds like a non issue and could actually lessen the prevalence of these deaths while bettering the ledge games (spikes, air battles, etc.) if they also decrease the auto-ledge grab distance.

 

[Kimosabae]

I wasn't saying the legitimate edge hog is a glitch (where you just grab the ledge at the right time and invincibility frames). I was referring to the rolling onto the stage part.

I forget the exact specifics on how it all works on the programming side of things but I remember that it's not just limited to the coding itself but the animations of the rolls also play a part in the edges being considered occupied. I'm not an expert on it by any means but I recall much of the ledge rolling animations for PM had to be edited to make ledge occupancy with rolls even work and I think it had to do with one of the bones on the character that interacts with the ledge. I wish I remembered more but I can't recall much more than that.

Glitch or oversight, same thing really, though.

As was I. I remember discussing this ad nauseam back in the day and I've never come across any compelling evidence that it's a glitch. It seems very much intentionally programmed into the code to me. I can agree that its effectiveness may be an oversight, hence it's address in Brawl. Not to be lexically semantical, but it isn't the same thing. I just don't want to see the word "glitch" misapplied in a Smash discussion of all places.

lol isai quote

Let's not forget that he's also increasing the power to kill people at lower percentages and edge hogging was always lame anyway. In 64 it's pathetic how easy it is to gimp/edge hog people, depressingly pathetic. It's like the #1 way I die because people can't handle a high level player who is great at spacing, so they resort more often than not to edge hogs and gimps because apparently a victory is the most important thing to people; it trickles down into the overall player habits in the community because people see how effective it is without being too risky fighting off the ledge.

I don't want to make this an issue until we start seeing some gameplay, but it actually could benefit the game if it's not extreme in either direction. What if they made the invincibility frames similar to 64 for someone with higher health, but just decreased the frames if you're lower health? On paper, sounds like a non issue and could actually lessen the prevalence of these deaths while bettering the ledge games (spikes, air battles, etc.) if they also decrease the auto-ledge grab distance.

I can't believe someone I agreed with so wholeheartedly in regards Halo CE being the best game in the Halo series (and off-line vs. online multiplayer) can make such a horrible post.

 

[kirblar]

Wtf this is not only wrong but a huge generalization. Competitive players LIKE edgehogging, maybe not the rolling up part that was in Melee, but definitely edgeguarding and what comes with that is also edgehogging. If you take out edgehogging completely, recovery is going to be even easier than Brawl. It's a balance so the person on-stage has the tools to deal with the person off-stage. The person recovering should have inherent disadvantages and that is one of them, getting edgehogged.

Competitive players "like it" because it's a tactic they've had to use due to the system mechanics. They'll adapt to do pretty much anything necessary to win. Sakurai's job isn't just to rehash what's happened before, its to also look at the system mechanics from a zoomed-out, broad perspective and go "Is this actually fun?" And in this case, the answer's pretty obvious: No, it's not. Yes, it's a necessary tactic in previous games. But it slows the game down and has players do this dance for a while instead of actually battling each other. It creates issues with the pace of a match. And so they've overhauled it to get people back in the action more quickly. That's a good thing.

The person coming in from the edge of the stage still has a massive disadvantage compared to the person in the middle. Both players just no longer have to do the edge tango before getting back to business.

 

[theprodigy]

lol isai quote

Let's not forget that he's also increasing the power to kill people at lower percentages and edge hogging was always lame anyway. In 64 it's pathetic how easy it is to gimp/edge hog people, depressingly pathetic. It's like the #1 way I die because people can't handle a high level player who is great at spacing, so they resort more often than not to edge hogs and gimps because apparently a victory is the most important thing to people; it trickles down into the overall player habits in the community because people see how effective it is without being too risky fighting off the ledge.

I don't want to make this an issue until we start seeing some gameplay, but it actually could benefit the game if it's not extreme in either direction. What if they made the invincibility frames similar to 64 for someone with higher health, but just decreased the frames if you're lower health? On paper, sounds like a non issue and could actually lessen the prevalence of these deaths while bettering the ledge games (spikes, air battles, etc.) if they also decrease the auto-ledge grab distance.

wat
seriously man, if you get gimped that easily than you're not a skilled player, hate to break it to you

 

[KittenMaster]

There's also a chance that even if it's more damage = more invulnerability frames on ledge, that the maximum amount of invulnerability frames may still be less than what Brawl provides at all levels of damage.

 

[Kimosabae]

Competitive players "like it" because it's a tactic they've had to use due to the system mechanics. They'll adapt to do pretty much anything necessary to win. Sakurai's job isn't just to rehash what's happened before, its to also look at the system mechanics from a zoomed-out, broad perspective and go "Is this actually fun?" And in this case, the answer's pretty obvious: No, it's not. Yes, it's a necessary tactic in previous games. But it slows the game down and has players do this dance for a while instead of actually battling each other. It creates issues with the pace of a match. And so they've overhauled it to get people back in the action more quickly. That's a good thing.

The person coming in from the edge of the stage still has a massive disadvantage compared to the person in the middle. Both players just no longer have to do the edge tango before getting back to business.

WTF are you talking about? Are we still talking about edge guarding/edge-hogging? If so, what you're claiming regarding pace is exactly the opposite.

 

[Solid SOAP]

I'm not a huge competitive player or anything, but this sounds good for those who are. I have a few friends who are fairly competitive Smashers so this sounds like something we could all get into in the long run.

 

[Revven]

WTF are you talking about? Are we still talking about edge guarding/edge-hogging? If so, what you're claiming regarding pace is exactly the opposite.

It really sounds like he's talking about Brawl to me when he mentions pacing issues with the match...

 

[Kimosabae]

It really sounds like he's talking about Brawl to me when he mentions pacing issues with the match...

Okay, yeah, I can see that.

Hell, I hope so.

 

[Metal B]

Edgeguarding was already risky in Melee, especially off-stage. Brawl, on the other hand... is the opposite of that -- there's no real risk to edgeguarding in Brawl (unless you go crazy and actually deplete every recovery option you have available to you) because you can always make it back to the ledge (esp. if you're Meta Knight).

Do you watch much competitive Melee? Or, for that matter, did you watch Apex 2014's Melee top 8? There's plenty of off-stage play going on in competitive Melee. Brawl is where there's hardly any of that going on because Sakurai buffed recoveries to high heaven which in turn nerfed edgeguarding options. Melee and Brawl don't share much in common when it comes to ledge play -- it's very different.

Edge Guarding is not the point. It is the most exciting part of Smash Brothers and Sakruai seen to encouraging it even more, since it makes the game look and feel better. No matter as a high risk, like in Melee (which is much more ground-battle heavy), or as a common tool, like in Brawl (which is designed to take the battle more into the air). The change in the mechanic in SSB4 increase the need even more, because if the launched player touches the edge, he almost has successfully recovered.

Only Edge Hogging and Planking make the game look boring. Yes, there are fine Edge Guarding-Tools, if you play to win (what you always should do), but it doesn't change how cheap they look. Again, if fans wanna have a highly competitive-game and see it on more big e-sports events, then it not only needs to balance, but also existing to look at. Golf is a highly skilled and balanced sport, but i still don't wanna follows the matches.

This isn't about being cheap, it's about "looking" cheap.

 

[kirblar]

WTF are you talking about? Are we still talking about edge guarding/edge-hogging? If so, what you're claiming regarding pace is exactly the opposite.

It keeps the players involved in a subgame of ledge superiority instead of getting them trying to bash each other with attacks and outmaneuver each other that way.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

I can't believe that someone I agreed with in regards Halo CE being the best game in the Halo series can make such a horrible post.

wat
seriously man, if you get gimped that easily than you're not a skilled player, hate to break it to you

I question how much time you guys put into Smash 64 because edge hogging is mind-numbingly boring to play against. It's nothing like Melee (especially because the recoveries are worse in 64); it's incredibly cheap because of the way many players do it and rely on it as their main form of taking players out.

No one's playing for money online. In order to improve, you have to play risky and get your ass out there, not throw (way stronger in 64) then simply jump off and grab a ledge without attacking. This is something that holds many players back from breaking through the walls into better tiers of player progression.

 

[theprodigy]

It keeps the players involved in a subgame of ledge superiority instead of getting them trying to bash each other with attacks and outmaneuver each other that way.

Edge Guarding is not the point. It is the most exciting part of Smash Brothers and Sakruai seen to encouraging it even more, since it makes the game look and feel better. No matter as a high risk, like in Melee (which is much more ground-battle heavy), or as a common tool, like in Brawl (which is designed to take the battle more into the air). The change in the mechanic in SSB4 increase the need even more, because if the launched player touches the edge, he almost has successfully recovered.

Only Edge Hogging and Planking make the game look boring. Yes, there are fine Edge Guarding-Tools, if you play to win (which you should), but it doesn't change how cheap they look. Again, if fans wanna have a highly competitive-game and see it on more big e-sports events, then it not only needs to balance, but also existing to look at. Golf is a highly skill and balance sport, but i still don't wanna follows the matches.

This isn't about being cheap, it's about "looking" cheap.

this might be slightly more convincing if Melee wasn't one of the most hype events wherever it goes, and that's with the stupid rolling from the ledge mechanic

I question how much time you guys put into Smash 64 because edge hogging is mind-numbingly boring to play against. It's nothing like Melee (especially because the recoveries are worse in 64); it's incredibly cheap because of the way many players do it and rely on it as their main form of taking players out.

No one's playing for money online. In order to improve, you have to play risky and get your ass out there, not throw (way stronger in 64) then simply jump off and grab a ledge without attacking. This is something that holds many players back from breaking through the walls into better tiers of player progression.

I take it you really don't know what you're talking about, did you even see Apex top 8 for Smash 64?
and if you get gimped without them having to go offstage and hit you, that's your own damn problem

 

[Kimosabae]

It keeps the players involved in a subgame of ledge superiority instead of getting them trying to bash each other with attacks and outmaneuver each other that way.

Brawl, right? If so, I agree.

In Melee this doesn't happen.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

I take it you really don't know what you're talking about, did you even see Apex top 8 for Smash 64?

I was there and saw all the Kirby/Pika players, even in the unofficial teams tourney where no money was involved; these things really mess with player habits in 64 because of how abusable everything is.

Listen man, I see you've made some ignorant posts before, but I'm not talking out of my ass about this. I play with all those people on pretty much a daily basis, so you're talking to the wrong person about not having experience with this game lol.

 

[kirblar]

Brawl, right? If so, I agree.

In Melee this doesn't happen.

Yeah, Brawl Doubles is the one game that I find fun to watch, and it's definitely the game (in singles especially) where I'm drawing from re: pace of matches grinding to a halt. The other part, though, the "is it fun"/"just get them back to fighting"- it's like in amateur wrestling or MMA, if a stalemate occurs, the ref can reset the situation. In this case, their team's trying to get the matches reset back to a normal pace more quickly when someone's coming back from the edge of the screen.

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

haha, this is literally classic Sirlin scrub

By the gamer's definition (not the insult), it absolutely is. But I don't care, I've never had problems winning the other way. Maybe I've just watched too much anime, but kills should be epic. I do play for fun, and I think people can find a good balance without doing horribly infuriating lame tactics. It's not even that I die very often to it, I just hate not being able to reach the ledge by a longshot, and already seeing someone camped on it. That just in case crap is annoying lol.

I try not to use Noob Tubes, I don't like to spam fireballs, and I don't like ledge campers. Don't care if it makes me weak, it makes me feel superior and awesome.

 

[emb]

Thinking about the update now, I totally see what you guys are saying about it being a bad thing. People getting back from the edge more often is bad, so the edgehogging nerf is probably for the worse.

The changes to invincibility are hopefully good though. It definitely gets annoying with people camping in ledge grabs in Brawl, or coming off the edge invincible in Melee. Here's hoping it lessens the invincibility though, instead of increasing it.

What if the person with more damage gets less invincibility?

Yeah, it totally depends on this. The post isn't specific at all with regards to how it's handled.

My ideal (fictional) scenario: ledge grabs and invincibility are the same as in Melee, except that letting go of the edge instantly ends invincibility.

By the gamer's definition (not the insult), it absolutely is. But I don't care, I've never had problems winning the other way. Maybe I've just watched too much anime, but kills should be epic.

But the most epic kills are the early ones, a big portion of which the attacking player wouldn't get if she didn't take the edge.

 

[theprodigy]

By the gamer's definition (not the insult), it absolutely is. But I don't care, I've never had problems winning the other way. Maybe I've just watched too much anime, but kills should be epic. I do play for fun, and I think people can find a good balance without doing horribly infuriating lame tactics. It's not even that I die very often to it, I just hate not being able to reach the ledge by a longshot, and already seeing someone camped on it. That just in case crap is annoying lol.

I try not to use Noob Tubes, I don't like to spam fireballs, and I don't like ledge campers. Don't care if it makes me weak, it makes me feel superior and awesome.

except the gimps are the most exciting plays
ESPECIALLY in Brawl, where everything else is a snoozefest

 

[Metal B]

this might be slightly more convincing if Melee wasn't one of the most hype events wherever it goes, and that's with the stupid rolling from the ledge mechanic

And if you watch the best clips of such events, the highlights are almost always big combos and/or off-stage fights. Not people Edge Hopping. And seeing Sakruai and his team encouraging off-stage Edge Guarding as something positive, is the point i am trying to make.

 

[Professor Beef]

spam
cheesers
honor
anime

chronotriggerjm is fucking real

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

spam
cheesers
honor
anime

chronotriggerjm is fucking real

I keep it old school man. I'm dropping terms from highschool here, I've got to dig deep.

 

[theprodigy]

spam
cheesers
honor
anime

chronotriggerjm is fucking real

LOL

edit: oh he mentioned that in his post, I was wondering how it tied in to the other 3 :jnc

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Yup, like I said in another thread, people can play Melee for the rest of their lives.

The rest of us will have fun.

I definitely don't have fun playing the game I prefer

 

[Holy Order Sol]

lol honor

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

WTF are you talking about? Are we still talking about edge guarding/edge-hogging? If so, what you're claiming regarding pace is exactly the opposite.

Edge guarding != edge hogging, so hopefully I'm reading too much into that as you meaning they're similar lol

To me, it seems like this update lessens the prevalence of edge hogging, which can be a good thing if you combine the fact that it won't take ages to kill people like in Brawl, the auto ledge grab is decreased and Sakurai seems to be putting more focus on spikes. So in theory, this seems like it could lead to better off-ledge games.

except the gimps are the most exciting plays
ESPECIALLY in Brawl, where everything else is a snoozefest

So you don't even address what I said huh.. lmfao

Anyway, gimps in 64 are easily the more boring plays. They might be exciting in Melee because they take more skill and are more difficult to pull off, but in 64 they're infuriating and cheap.

 

[Kimosabae]

I was there and saw all the Kirby/Pika players, even in the unofficial teams tourney where no money was involved; these things really mess with player habits in 64 because of how abusable everything is.

Listen man, I see you've made some ignorant posts before, but I'm not talking out of my ass about this. I play with all those people on pretty much a daily basis, so you're talking to the wrong person about not having experience with this game lol.

The premise of your initial argument was that gimps are bad (generally) because there's more to the game than winning. That's about as scrubby as it gets. Yes, there is more to any game than winning; but when the discussion is restricted to the competitive domain - winning is what matters. Not fun. Not nostalgic romanticisms regarding your roommates.

But don't think for a second that people that restrict their discussions and gameplay to this domain do not have their own brand of fun or nostalgia.

I feely admit to being largely ignorant to Smash 64, but nothing you've posted convinces me that you were any good, or knowledgable about the game, either. From what I've witnessed, kill combos and gimps are way more frequent than in Melee or Brawl at high levels. I guess high-level 64 players aren't good by your arbitrary standards because they can't handle your superior spacing?

Get real. Those players are pissing on your Cloud 9 from Cloud 10.

 

[Beckx]

I can't tell what's parody and what's real anymore.