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Smash Bros. 4 3DS/Wii U has major metagame changes regarding edge grabbing
- Thread starter Fiktion
- Start date
Holy Order Sol
Member
I can't tell what's real from what's real.
theprodigy
Member
It is for me, and I'm not a pro player.
It shows an attention for the core mechanics. Up until this point it has felt sort of like a Brawl roster update, with shiny new graphics. But if they can get it as fun as Melee was then I am much excite.
C.Olimar788
Member
Glad to see some of the people in this topic realize that these mechanical changes could easily be very, very bad for Smash Bros. ledge game. I was getting sick of people in the main OT claiming that these were good changes made for competitive players when clearly they're neither of those things.
I'd like to imagine they were added when Sakurai was playing with someone better than him and got frustrated when the better player kept edgehogging him. He threw his controller down, swore in Japanese, and immediately went to the game's code to change things.
I'd like to imagine they were added when Sakurai was playing with someone better than him and got frustrated when the better player kept edgehogging him. He threw his controller down, swore in Japanese, and immediately went to the game's code to change things.
Button monkeys, they are. You're not real if you're not basking in Rosilina panty-shots versus discussing how the game will actually play.
Holy Order Sol
Member
Nah he probably just doesn't give a fuck. I mean he mains Ganondorf in Brawl.
Garrett 2U
Member
I don't know the meta game behind it, but if the competitive scene is happy with it, I'm happy with it.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Wow this post was aggressive. Let me break it down:
In this case, victories shouldn't be as important as improving at the game, especially when there's no money involved. This is where I was coming from, just playing online friendlies day in and day out; the reality of Smash 64 for many years until it was brought into Apex or other tourneys over the past couple years.
The premise of my argument that it impacts player habits too much because of how easy they are in 64, leading to a majority of the community being made up of shitty players that will take them ages to get better and understand the game on a fundamental level. When you've been playing the game for years and haven't made any significant improvements to your playstyle while others around you are improving (knowledge and flashiness), then obviously you should evaluate your situation and why you're so stagnant.
In this case, victories shouldn't be as important as improving at the game, especially when there's no money involved. This is where I was coming from, just playing online friendlies day in and day out; the reality of Smash 64 for many years until it was brought into Apex or other tourneys over the past couple years.
Who was restricting the discussion to the "competitive domain?" I didn't get that memo.. Also, no, I 100% disagree with the notion that "winning is what matters" because as I previously explained, tactics like those in 64 lead to shitty player habits that only lead you to becoming stagnant and predictable. If you really want to get better, you have to try new things and break out of your comfort zone, not back throw a Link off the ledge then edge hog him at low % because his recovery is ass and you want to win in a friendly..
And this is the problem.. You're attacking me when you have little to no experience with the game. It's no different than those players who would attack me for saying the CE Pistol wasn't broken and that the gameplay for future Halo games should be modeled after CE.
lmfao Get prodigy and play me in teams in Smash 64. You'll see what's up man.
theprodigy
Member
Besides his point is irrelevant because there have been no Xenoblade-related reveals yet
Because... SHOCK: something significant about a system in the game is changing vs a character that is "leaked" that had a high chance of getting in from the get-go.
Holy Order Sol
Member
You're conflating two things that have nothing to do with each other here for the sake of making your point. One should certainly expand their knowledge and not fall into habits in order to improve, but flashiness is something else entirely and not a relevant criterion to define the better player.
I agree that playing to learn is a thing, but ultimately it's about playing to learn things that allow you to win.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
You Melee player can play that game for the rest of your lives.
The rest of us will have fun with deviantart
Don't look too much into it. That's just my posting style.
Yes, that was another premise... and it's worse. You're implying that using a tactic that aids in winning now - ultimately makes players worse at winning in the future. That couldn't be stupider if Nintendo wrote it.
That could be true if the tactic somehow stops becoming beneficial or even debilitating to the user because the game's meta changes... that clearly hasn't happened with Gimping in Smash 64.
I'd agree with you if you were being rational and highlighting what the fundamentals actually are ("spacing"? Thanks?) and not dismissing one fundament altogether based on the premise that it somehow makes you a worse player (lol). As someone else said - playing merely to learn is definitely a thing. But that's not what you're expressing here.
It wasn't explicit, which is fair. I will inform you now, that you've quoted people that have adopted this mindset, so that's the context of their responses. The rest is still really ambiguous musings of scrubby talk that does nothing to demonstrate how the tactic makes you a worse player in the future.
It was quite easy to demonstrate with language why the pistol didn't break the game - it was just frustrating for newer players. Your stance is currently some ironic, inversion of the perspectives at war in that example.
I don't get it.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
I think the confusion here was from my talking about how players depending on simple gimps and easy edge hogs to kill people in 64 ruined the community as a means to justify this yet-to-be-fully-explained change to invincibility frames.
Professor Beef
Banned
all you cheesers and unhonorable fighters need to read this and have some knowledge dropped on you
http://www.denofgeek.us/games/injus...g-us-cheesers-should-be-ashamed-of-themselves
http://www.denofgeek.us/games/injus...g-us-cheesers-should-be-ashamed-of-themselves
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
It makes the community as a whole worse if they don't actively try to improve by using other tactics. How is this stupid to say when it should be so obvious? People learn how to fight against this, but when the majority of players play like that it just leads to stale gameplay.
Who cares about winning. I want to have some fun, play some competitive games and get better. Sure this may sound "scrubby" in the middle of a "competitive discussion," but unless you're making decent money off Smash then the shit that's pulled off in 64 compared to later games only hurts the community as a whole.
Spacing, knowing what attacks have long recovery times in the air, knowing what part of the attack to hit with and when they can further extend combos, approaches depending on match-ups, all these things. Are you saying you don't know what the fundamentals of Smash are and that you want me to explain them or?
It's apparently not easy at all to describe why the Pistol didn't break the game because the majority of people STILL don't get it.. that's the truly ironic part here. Describe something all you want, but unless the person you're describing it to either has trust in what you're saying or has the experience themself, then there's no point in discussing it further (which is what I'm seeing here).
It means that if you or prodigy want to say things like "scrubby" and insult my "skill" at the game, then let's play some games. The last thing I want to do is sound elitist, but I think if we played and I showed you what I was talking about while explaining it further, then you could get a better understanding of how abusable throws, edge hogs and the simplest of gimps made gameplay shitty. I'm not necessarily saying that'll it make players themselves worse, but it certainly won't make them as good as they could be. .
I guess it was more personal than it needed to be because I've seen for so long how easy gimps can be bad for Smash 4. That's the thing here, Smash 64 recoveries were so terrible compared to Melee and Brawl, so really it's more of a secluded issue I have with gimps in that game.
Holy Order Sol
Member
A game's community can't be ruined by people playing in a way they believe to be optimal. Either they are wrong, and someone is eventually able to make this obvious, thus advancing the metagame as others learn from what they brought to the table, or they are right, and the game is basically solved. In the process, it may degenerate into something that is no longer interesting, but in that case that's on the game. That's just what we do, try our hardest to break games, after all. The greatest ones remain worth playing without the players refusing to play to win.
Now if you're trying to say that relying on these things in 64 may hurt someone's ability to get better at another Smash game well that's just normal when you choose to be specialist. But if someone's game of choice is Smash 64 and they're dedicated to playing it competitively, it only makes sense that they'd take advantage of the kind of things that are specific to that game, since the fact that it wouldn't work in another game would not be a concern.
That's an absolutely terrible attempt at elaborating my original post.
Exactly what I'm thinking. He'll probably give everyone stronger moves as their percentage increases next.
Fucking dead.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
That's exactly what I'm saying and saw for several years. The last line in my previous comment I think sums up where I was coming from:
That being said, I love Smash 64 but I'm glad that certain parts of it were changed because of how easy it was to get those kind of kills.
If you ever have time to get rocked at 64, let me know ;]
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Every time I think about Smash, I'm reminded once again that I'll no longer be able to use this...
Nintendo should totally make a special edition of the game that comes with a redesigned, Gamecube-esque, Wii U Pro Controller.
They do have gamecube controller converters for the Wii U. I don't know if they're any good though or if the latency is noticeable.
I actually have one of those, but it only enables the use of the Cube controller as a Wii Pro Controller...not a Wii U Pro Controller.
So unless Smash 4 supports the Wii Pro controller, I don't think it would work.
Why does Smash 64 keep coming up :|
What is the concensus on this new information?
I took it as: less air time = less invincibility on ledge, and I'm assuming that if you don't have invincibility anymore, the ledge can be stolen from you. Also no more strong/weak getup animations/attacks.
This would get rid of planking (yay!) and gimp the edge hogging game (unless you can jump a bunch of times on stage like Meta Knight and then edge hog) (also Boo!)
I would've rather they kept it how it was and got rid of the incredible ledge snap of Brawl. I don't think they will take that away but these mechanics should at least make this an improvement since it's so difficult to ledge hog anyways with the snap and decreased active ledge grabbed frames from Brawl.
What is the concensus on this new information?
I took it as: less air time = less invincibility on ledge, and I'm assuming that if you don't have invincibility anymore, the ledge can be stolen from you. Also no more strong/weak getup animations/attacks.
This would get rid of planking (yay!) and gimp the edge hogging game (unless you can jump a bunch of times on stage like Meta Knight and then edge hog) (also Boo!)
I would've rather they kept it how it was and got rid of the incredible ledge snap of Brawl. I don't think they will take that away but these mechanics should at least make this an improvement since it's so difficult to ledge hog anyways with the snap and decreased active ledge grabbed frames from Brawl.
Solid SOAP
Member
I'm hoping it uses the Pro controller. I just bought one and it works like a dream for VC games as well as 3D World.
If they did this, they'd have to make it truly wired because the current Pro Controller isn't wired even if you connect the USB cable to the Wii U while you're using it. This would be a big issue to Smash 4 tournaments... wireless interference and all, if it's not fixed.
This is the adapter.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BS520SG/?tag=neogaf0e-20
It may not support the Wii Classic Controller Pro but I will be a little surprised if it doesn't support the Wii Classic Controller. If it does that, the adapter should work fine, no?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BS520SG/?tag=neogaf0e-20
It may not support the Wii Classic Controller Pro but I will be a little surprised if it doesn't support the Wii Classic Controller. If it does that, the adapter should work fine, no?
Nintendo love the Wii U Pro, and Brawl had 4-5 different controller options, so pretty sure it will use Gamepad, Wii U Pro, Wiimote and Wiimote and Nunchuk.
Yep...
-Compatible with all games supported by the Wii Classic Controller
-Compatible with all games supported by the Wii Classic Controller Pro
So it wouldn't work on the Wii U game unless for some reason Sakurai supports the older Wii Classic Controller.
Correct. I may be getting all the Wiis, Wii Us, Pros, and Classics confused. Lol. I blame Nintendo.
But you think they would support the Wii Classic controller as an option? I figured it would just be the Gamepad and Wii U Pro Controller. Would be interesting if they did.
I'm saying they should create a totally redesigned Wii U Pro Controller that looks like a Cube controller (internals would be the same).
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Where'd you get this from?
Same, especially for the ledge snap. The hell with that shit..
From Sakurai's last extra comment. He talks about "grab controls" will no longer depend on having more or less than 100% damage.
The only thing in Smash determined by having above or below 100% was your get up animations from the ledge (and also from knockdown state but that shouldn't relate to "grab controls" or the ledge game). If you had over 100% you had slower animations and a different, slower getup attack.
Solid Samus
Banned
I can see where you're coming from but while this might change the ledge game up significantly we don't know what effect that'll have on the whole, the flow of each match yet. I'm not so sure I'm ready to chalk it up as a bad thing when we still know so little about the game and the subtleties to how it'll play compared to its predecessors.
Even though I don't really understand some of the more technical details, I think this is super important because it shows Sakurai and the development team actually are concerned about competitive issues. That makes me really excited! I look forward to the game being released.
Solid Samus
Banned
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
But "grab controls" is what threw me off because I have never heard them being called that, even though I know the % only affected those things. I was thinking maybe it had something to do with Brawl and the characters who have tethers or maybe something I missed in an update.. welp.
v
^
This is interesting, I didn't know about this. Though it explains a lot.
"Grab controls" is indeed odd wording. The whole thing is really. It's clearly some shit translation.
Does he release Japanese Miiverse comments that are actually his own words? Have any native Japanese speakers been able to take a look at it, preferably ones that are experienced Smash players, and perhaps offered a better translation?
Does he release Japanese Miiverse comments that are actually his own words? Have any native Japanese speakers been able to take a look at it, preferably ones that are experienced Smash players, and perhaps offered a better translation?
I would be surprised if it wasn't supported. Smash Bros Brawl was compatible with every single control setup the Wii offered, I'm sure Smash 4 will share the "all controls" philosophy. Plus, other Nintendo games are still supporting the controller (SM3DW)
With the Dojo, I remember people generally finding that the translations were close to spot on. It's probably just strange or vague wording from the guy himself. That's a pure guess though, I don't know.
I agree with you for the most part. Keep in mind though that you're arguing with competitive smashers. It's easier to win in a tournament if you use the most effective tactic. They have to play that way to win. As casual smashers me and you both know it's lame and boring to get an edge grab kill. Good luck trying to get a competitive type to admit that. Luckily it seems like Sakurai and Co. know what's up. This improvement sounds like it will make it more difficult to get a lame kill. Making a regrettable part of the previous games more varied and fun? Sounds good to me.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
If people have problems with edge hogging in Melee or Brawl, they really need to play 64 lol. Edge hogging and gimps in Melee and especially Brawl are hardly issues that "casuals" should have a problem with.
Smash is already accessible, so removing depth to the game is unnecessary IMO.
For the most part edge hogs are not considered "lame" kills or gimps. In Melee it's all about going for the ledge, going above the ledge, and in general picking from a variety of options to safely make it back. The second you are offstage you are at a disadvantage and must do anything in your power to get back.
If you get edge hogged at a low percent you were gimped somehow. You were attacked out of your second jump, you were effectively spiked, you DI'd poorly, or something else fairly reasonable happened to cause it, that likely required a high degree of skill, or a major fuckup on your part.
If you get hit really far and get edge hogged because you were barely able to make it back, that's your fault for getting hit that far and you were effectively killed by that attack. If you manage to get back it is the fault of the attacker and a second chance. It isn't a stock that you deserved to keep.
Most casuals think it's a stock they deserved to keep though which leads to salt, but once you change that mentality it isn't very upsetting anymore.
Also edge guards aren't a huge part of the game any more than the variety of other ways of knocking your opponent out. They don't even make up the majority of KOs, so it really isn't something people should cry foul about.
Also Brawl edgehogs were very difficult and shouldn't be looked at as cheap. They aren't any more cheap than any other skilled maneuver pulled to damage your opponent. They also barely happen so most didn't complain about this in Brawl.
If you get edge hogged at a low percent you were gimped somehow. You were attacked out of your second jump, you were effectively spiked, you DI'd poorly, or something else fairly reasonable happened to cause it, that likely required a high degree of skill, or a major fuckup on your part.
If you get hit really far and get edge hogged because you were barely able to make it back, that's your fault for getting hit that far and you were effectively killed by that attack. If you manage to get back it is the fault of the attacker and a second chance. It isn't a stock that you deserved to keep.
Most casuals think it's a stock they deserved to keep though which leads to salt, but once you change that mentality it isn't very upsetting anymore.
Also edge guards aren't a huge part of the game any more than the variety of other ways of knocking your opponent out. They don't even make up the majority of KOs, so it really isn't something people should cry foul about.
Also Brawl edgehogs were very difficult and shouldn't be looked at as cheap. They aren't any more cheap than any other skilled maneuver pulled to damage your opponent. They also barely happen so most didn't complain about this in Brawl.