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CountBlack · Sep 14, 2014

Warning: Spoilers of the SSB4 cast

So with the final roster for SSB4 on the 3DS out there.. I've found myself kind of disappointed with the cast. While there are tons of unique characters in the game, I really wish Nintendo spent more time developing some of the older and new characters to be more unique. I decided to make this thread when I saw that Lucina was just Marth with longer hair and Black Pit was actually a new character instead of just a costume.

Palette swaps have been around forever in fighting games though, so I can't really just fault Nintendo. Street fighter has Ryu/Ken/Akuma/Evil Ryu even though they all play very different. Tekken has Eddy/Christie/Tiger, Forest Law/Marshall Law, Bob/Slim Bob, Jin/Devil Jin. Mortal Kombat has Scorpion/Sub Zero/Reptile(Classic)/Rain/Smoke etc

Palette swaps have been around forever and have really become the norm with the older series of games, but I was really hoping for more Unique characters in the new Smash. Or that they'd at least change around some of the palette swap characters returning.

Was hoping they'd make Dr. Mario more different this time around.. or at least give him a better final smash but it's literally just Mario's FS switched with pills.

Was hoping Ganondorf wouldn't continue to just be a heavy version of Captain Falcon (which never made sense to me anyway, but I guess I'm a decade too late for that conversion).

Capcom had many chances to add in more of the series' beloved characters with AE, but instead they gave us a Ryu palette swap, Oni who is essentially Akuma, then Yun/Yang.

Anyway, what do you think? Are developers just being lazy about not wanting to implement more unique characters or is it because of deadlines and money issues?

EightBitNate · Sep 14, 2014

Sometimes palette swap characters aren't unique enough to warrant their own moveset. But besides that, it's probably just not enough time or not worth it.

SerTapTap · Sep 14, 2014

This is like the "remaster vs new games" argument except even more extreme. No insane amount of extra palettes are going to come close to the development cost of a single extra character. Palette swaps are almost completely free variety, and they're also a complete necessity in any modern fighting game since you can make Ryu fight against Ryu since SF2 so we need a way to visually differentiate two people playing the same character. And since you HAVE to have that engine ability to palette swap, why not make a few more fun funsies?

There is absolutely no reason not to have palette swaps. It would actually look incredibly lazy if you didn't because of how much variety they add with insanely low effort. Skullgirls is an example of GREAT palette swaps; a great deal of references to different fighting game characters, and characters have different "zones" in their palettes so some characters may have/lack pantyhose in some palettes, Umbrella even has *glasses* in some palettes, Ms Fortune has a varying pant-lengths due to palettes, Valentine has an optional bra (lol). What Smash does by making models of different but very similar characters is a logical extension of that.

Also, Smash 4 has what, almost 50 characters? 11 of them new? Not counting "secret" characters not on the US site yet? That's hardly lazy. And Nintendo doesn't count palette swapped chars as newcomers on that page btw.

CountBlack · Sep 14, 2014

Sir TapTap said:
This is like the "remaster vs new games" argument except even more extreme. No insane amount of extra palettes are going to come close to the development cost of a single extra character. Palette swaps are almost completely free variety, and they're also a complete necessity in any modern fighting game since you can make Ryu fight against Ryu since SF2 so we need a way to visually differentiate two people playing the same character. And since you HAVE to have that engine ability to palette swap, why not make a few more fun funsies?

There is absolutely no reason not to have palette swaps. It would actually look incredibly lazy if you didn't because of how much variety they add with insanely low effort. Skullgirls is an example of GREAT palette swaps; a great deal of references to different fighting game characters, and characters have different "zones" in their palettes so some characters may have/lack pantyhose in some palettes, Umbrella even has *glasses* in some palettes, Ms Fortune has a varying pant-lengths due to palettes, Valentine has an optional bra (lol). What Smash does by making models of different but very similar characters is a logical extension of that.

Also, Smash 4 has what, almost 50 characters? 11 of them new? Not counting "secret" characters not on the US site yet? That's hardly lazy. And Nintendo doesn't count palette swapped chars as newcomers on that page btw.

I honestly would've just preferred if they made Lucina a costume for Marth if they're going to play the exact same. Just like how there's a Male/Female Wii Fit Trainer, Male/Female Robin, all the different Koopa kids. Personally that's more awesome to me instead of wasting a character slot that could've been a whole new character.

And yea, I mentioned that this is just the 3DS roster and the Wii U version might/should have more characters.

Stumpokapow · Sep 14, 2014

they didn't "Waste a character slot". there aren't a fixed amount of character slots. it's about balancing resources. if lucina is virtually the same as marth, then lucina cost less to develop (in terms of person-hours and money) than other characters, and that's why it was possible to add her.

i've only played a few minutes of the demo, but every smash game so far has been chock full of content and i see no reason to believe ssb4 isn't, so from where i'm sitting i sort of have to roll my eyes about people immediately zooming in on what they could have added but didn't.

Holy Order Sol · Sep 14, 2014

I don't care how "lazy" it looks, if they play differently they're different characters period.

Also Clones Team in KOF 02UM is awesome so if anything, more of that is welcome.

Master Milk · Sep 14, 2014

CountBlackule said:
Are developers just being lazy?

No. The answer is always not enough time and not enough money.

Oberon · Sep 14, 2014

CountBlackule said:
Anyway,what do you think? Are developers just being lazy about not wanting to implement more unique characters or is it because of deadlines and money issues?

I really dislike when people call developers lazy.
Those character wouldn't normally make it into the game if it wasn't for being clones.
Especially when it comes to Smash, Lucina,Pitto and,Dr. Mario wouldn't be in the game or just Costumes like Alph.

Myn · Sep 14, 2014

The way I see it, palette swaps aren't necessarily bad. If anything, clones adds more of an aesthetic value and variety, especially in the case if there was a mirror match.

People always complain about how clones are wastes of space for potential new ones (I feel the same way too, granted) but the truth is that clones are the result of developers who don't have time or enough resources to flesh out a brand new character. You either have them filling space or have no slots.

CountBlack · Sep 14, 2014

Master Milk said:
No. The answer is always not enough time and not enough money.

Yea maybe I shouldn't have said lazy, but in some instances it really does feel like they're just taking the easiest route with the swaps.

I do understand SSB4 is filled with tons of content and additional content, was just hoping some of the swaps would just be a different costume instead of a character.

I do agree that if they play completely different they should be considered a different character, but I just don't understand why a character like Ganondorf is a swap of Captain Falcon.. they're nothing alike as characters but share the same specials but one hits harder and is heavier than the other.

But I understand, if I want more unique characters than I should go into development and see how hard it is etc

Glass Rebel · Sep 14, 2014

While I'm definitely disappointed that Ganondorf is still a Captain Falcon clone, which is uninspired and doesn't make any sense, Smash 4 has a total of 51 characters plus 8 (?) custom moves per character. Adding clones or palette swaps is a good way to please fans of existing characters without spending too much money or time. Looking at the costumes in Smash 4, I get the impression that the developers just went with whatever they liked best within the time constraints set by Nintendo. I mean, some characters only get recolours while Bowser Jr. has every single Koopaling as his alts.

Also, "wasted characters slots" are a thing that only exists in your head.

BumblebeeCody · Sep 14, 2014

Stumpokapow said:
they didn't "Waste a character slot". there aren't a fixed amount of character slots. it's about balancing resources. if lucina is virtually the same as marth, then lucina cost less to develop (in terms of person-hours and money) than other characters, and that's why it was possible to add her.

i've only played a few minutes of the demo, but every smash game so far has been chock full of content and i see no reason to believe ssb4 isn't, so from where i'm sitting i sort of have to roll my eyes about people immediately zooming in on what they could have added but didn't.

Personally I find the new Smash to be severely lacking in any new major content. It's just a brawl 1.5 in HD.

Parallax Scroll · Sep 14, 2014

I don't think lazy is the right word. Game developers are businesses, and they have schedules and budgets they have to keep.

Palette swaps are a cheap way to add more variety to a game. I think it's OK as an extra.

QisTopTier · Sep 14, 2014

I'll reserve judgement on how much of a clone the new smash characters are until people put out more info on their attack attributes.

And no oni is not an Akuma clone they are barely alike

I-hate-u · Sep 14, 2014

Jin is different than Devil Jin.

But backing your point, I was extremely disappointed in SFXT where majority of the Capcom fighters where just recycled from SF4. I wanted a brand new artsyle I guess.

Marz · Sep 15, 2014

I look at it like, I'd rather have 15 characters than 14. So even if that character is a clone/palette swap id rather have em in.

hentaicook · Sep 15, 2014

It's a matter of priority.

Why doesn't every copy of smash come with a bag of pokemon toys? Because it's not in everyone's interest. You can't have everything.

JordanN · Sep 15, 2014

Palette swaps are lame

Even worse when they're literally the same character.

Guess which is which?

Top: Kasumi. Bottom: Kasumi Phase 4

Silky · Sep 15, 2014

> Oni is essentially Akuma

Blackule do you think DJ is essentially Guile

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