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Could the 60 fps hack & slash genre be going the way of the dinosaurs?

Just by looking at sales trends, ninja gaiden 3, bayonetta and DMC(30fps) reboot all are pretty much considered failures/bomba in terms of sales. I think the only one left that can generate sales is MGSR2 cause of the MGS IP tied to it. after we confirm bayonetta 2 bombing in the US, MGSR2 could be the last retail 60fps hack & slash we see this gen which is just sad.
 
PG isn't going to go anywhere, so I don't think so. NG will probably eventually make a comeback (at 60fps? Dunno) and Scalebound is bound for next year.
And I think Nintendo will be happy enough with Bayo 2's sales/reception.
 
PG isn't going to go anywhere, so I don't think so. NG will probably eventually make a comeback (at 60fps? Dunno) and Scalebound is bound for next year.

Scalebound is more like 2016. And while P* keeps the genre alive, a bit more competition would be nice.
Bayonetta 2 could be the last hurray.
 

Peff

Member
Could it? It mostly already has. Hopefully it'll get Jurassic Park'd in the future, but in the meantime I'm OK with getting one a year if they're anything like Bayonetta 2 or W101.
 
I think the real problem is when a publisher looks at a game and says "it only sold 1.3 million copies". A lot of potentially great games are going to die that way.
 
60 fps isn't a genre, just a convenient way to exclude games like God of War.
God of War isn't really a character action game though, very different goals and limited combo potential. In any case God of War games run at 60 FPS as much as any platinum game on console does
2% of the time
 

SerTapTap

Member
I think the real problem is when a publisher looks at a game and says "it only sold 1.3 million copies". A lot of potentially great games are going to die that way.

It's the reality of how most AAA sees retail games, which is why "disk or no buy" is going to hurt a lot of people (and a lot of developers) in a great deal of genres
 

Xater

Member
You mean character action games and yeah for the most part it already is done. We are lucky Nintendo even picked Bayonetta 2 up.
 
Bayonetta is done, NG is dead, DMC is dead, GoW is out there, maybe a MGR sequel or some shit, Itsuno locked in a closet somewhere, Devil's Third lookin like Devil's Turd, everybody else making open world games with RPG elements or some shit(and hell, maybe Scalebound is too)

RIP, least we went out on top with Bayo2, miracle of miracles
 

maxcriden

Member
It's just going to depend on the developer. I don't think 60 fps is crucial for hack'n'slash games, I think as with a console Zelda game a stable 30 can work well. I don't play HNS games though, so I might not know what I'm talking about.
 
That's really sad if so. I had the unplayable PS3 version of bayonetta so I couldn't play it. The port was too bad. I just finished for the first time on he wiiu last night and loved it. I literally took bayonetta 1 out and put in bayonetta 2. These game need to exist. Maybe they weren't directed just at M market. I don't really need the gobs of blood and the pointless language but the fast pace speticule of it all.
 
I think games in the genre still have plenty of potential to sell, it's always going to be a niche genre, but the three games you listed that suffered from poor sales all had outside obstacles hurting them in addition to the fact that they just inherently sell less than than other genres.

DmC had a massive controversy and fanbase divide that surrounded it, turning off longtime fans and likely a fair few other people in the process with all the vitriol that surrounded it. The original version of Ninja Gaiden 3 was complete, pure garbage and even though the rerelease fixed many of its issues it still had a lot of problems from the poor base game it was built from. And Bayonetta 2 is an exclusive on a console in which even third party titles that are highly successful on other platforms suffer in sales.

For these games to succeed they need to be widely available (a game like this needs as many sales as possible, and being restricted to one platform limits that greatly), they need to know their target audience (fans of technically proficient, mechanically deep games with high skill ceilings) and they need to provide the depth that their most loyal fans want while also being accessible enough (Wonderful 101 is probably the worst offender at having a high barrier to entry, while Bayonetta is much more friendly to new players), and having enough spectacle in a single playthrough to wow the people who will only run through the game once (no more half-a-game DMC4 situations).

And probably most important of all, and least likely to happen, developers/publishers need to have reasonable expectations. A properly developed DMC5 can easily reach Capcom's 2 million sales expectation. But that series probably has the most clout in this genre besides God of War, and very few other games should expect those kind of sales.
 
Fact is, outside of God of War, it's not a widely popular genre. However, it never really has been. It's never stopped the games from getting made and it's never stopped sequels to some of those games. There's just not a huge number of studios working on these types of games.
 
God of War isn't really a character action game though, very different goals and limited combo potential. In any case God of War games run at 60 FPS as much as any platinum game on console does
2% of the time
I don't understand how it's not a character action game. Cause you can knock enemies away with combos or something? Cause I've been playing Bayonetta for the first time and while it's really fucking good it doesn't seem fundamentally different from GoW.

Also Ninja Theory is making Hellblade with very realistic sales expectations, OP. And we just got Legend of Korra. I'd say the character action genre is doing alright. Platinum is putting out more games than ever, GoW4 is inevitable, Ninja Theory is making multiple games and getting better at it, and Capcom considers DMC one of their most important franchises.
 

Tenki

Member
Platinum isn't going anywhere anytime soon, so I don't think the genre will disappear. Becoming a (even) more niche genre yeah, but not disappearing.

Anyway, PG will make Bayo3 for the next Nintendo console launch, right? :(
 

jblank83

Member
I've not seen hack and slash used in the context of these games.

I've usually seen them called brawlers, beatemups, or just straight action games.

Confusing the matter, I've seen Diablo games called hack and slash.
 
Fact is, outside of God of War, it's not a widely popular genre. However, it never really has been. It's never stopped the games from getting made and it's never stopped sequels to some of those games. There's just not a huge number of studios working on these types of games.

Ninja gaiden 2 and DMC4 had healthy sales. the reboot and ninja gaiden 3 were huge flops.
 
Im not sure scalebound is going to be a action game at all. Its going to be something more like okami.

As for hack slash in general, they are going to leave the marketplace for one simple reason.

They cannot justify their costs.

The realistic upper limit for an action game is 2 million sold.

Yes GOW sells more, but GOW ups the stakes in production values that no other action game can.

I think that its no getting to the stage were unless its a smaller DL title; action games just wont break even.

We will still see a few more attempts, ik sure at the very least, we will see another NG and GOW and we might get a DMC late in the gen, but past that, im not confident we will see anything more outside of indies.
 

Nemesis_

Member
Ninja gaiden 2 and DMC4 had healthy sales. the reboot and ninja gaiden 3 were huge flops.

Ninja Gaiden was always average in terms of gameplay but 2 was very well marketed. DMC4 was coming of the fantastic DMC3 and was Capcom's first next gen game that was a sequel to one of their legacy franchises.
 

Peff

Member
I think that its no getting to the stage were unless its a smaller DL title; action games just wont break even.

We will still see a few more attempts, ik sure at the very least, we will see another NG and GOW and we might get a DMC late in the gen, but past that, im not confident we will see anything more outside of indies.

Which, as seen last wek, people don't seem to be willing to accept the compromises of a DL action game of this kind. So...
 
Ninja Gaiden was always average in terms of gameplay but 2 was very well marketed. DMC4 was coming of the fantastic DMC3 and was Capcom's first next gen game that was a sequel to one of their legacy franchises.

Ninja Gaiden black is the highest rated game ever in the genre, how is that average?
 

JordanN

Banned
Ninja Gaiden 4 could still exist.

They'll want to reuse assets from the next Dead or Alive like they've been doing all last gen.
 

Espada

Member
Bayonetta is done, NG is dead, DMC is dead, GoW is out there, maybe a MGR sequel or some shit, Itsuno locked in a closet somewhere, Devil's Third lookin like Devil's Turd, everybody else making open world games with RPG elements or some shit(and hell, maybe Scalebound is too)

RIP, least we went out on top with Bayo2, miracle of miracles

Yeah, I don't have high hopes for the character action genre. It's a shame because they're some of the most fun games out there, but they're also very easy to screw up.
 

Yagharek

Member
Just by looking at sales trends, ninja gaiden 3, bayonetta and DMC(30fps) reboot all are pretty much considered failures/bomba in terms of sales. I think the only one left that can generate sales is MGSR2 cause of the MGS IP tied to it. after we confirm bayonetta 2 bombing in the US, MGSR2 could be the last retail 60fps hack & slash we see this gen which is just sad.

Is MGS Rising 2 even confirmed?
 

Oersted

Member
It's the reality of how most AAA sees retail games, which is why "disk or no buy" is going to hurt a lot of people (and a lot of developers) in a great deal of genres

And it will get only worse this generation. I hope the tools for indies mature fast enough.
 
Im not sure scalebound is going to be a action game at all. Its going to be something more like okami.

As for hack slash in general, they are going to leave the marketplace for one simple reason.

They cannot justify their costs.

The realistic upper limit for an action game is 2 million sold.

Yes GOW sells more, but GOW ups the stakes in production values that no other action game can.

I think that its no getting to the stage were unless its a smaller DL title; action games just wont break even.

We will still see a few more attempts, ik sure at the very least, we will see another NG and GOW and we might get a DMC late in the gen, but past that, im not confident we will see anything more outside of indies.

capcom hasn't made a proper DMC in 8 years, they put the nail in the coffin with the reboot, and ninja gaiden 4 is a maybe, but it will most likely be shit.
 

Ushiwaka

Member
Bayonetta is done, NG is dead, DMC is dead, GoW is out there, maybe a MGR sequel or some shit, Itsuno locked in a closet somewhere, Devil's Third lookin like Devil's Turd, everybody else making open world games with RPG elements or some shit(and hell, maybe Scalebound is too)

RIP, least we went out on top with Bayo2, miracle of miracles

Will-Smith-Yelling-No-I-Am-Legend.gif


VJC why you do dis

Itsuno will come back and make DMC5, we will have MGR2 and it will be glorious and Scalebound, while might not be a pure HnS game, will be awesome.
And Gaben will fund Bayo 3.
 
On gameplay alone the sub genre isn't popular enough to be viable, I'm expecting another MGR since the last game reportedly sold quite well. We might get more if that sells well.

Other than that I'm expecting we will see a number of low budget pure CAG's like Legend of Korra with higher budget games taking the form as hybrids (MMO, open world, monster hunter, MP)
 
Just by looking at sales trends, ninja gaiden 3, bayonetta and DMC(30fps) reboot all are pretty much considered failures/bomba in terms of sales. I think the only one left that can generate sales is MGSR2 cause of the MGS IP tied to it. after we confirm bayonetta 2 bombing in the US, MGSR2 could be the last retail 60fps hack & slash we see this gen which is just sad.

Personally I would not shed any tears as I'm not a big fan of the genre,but:
-NInja Gaiden 3 sold bad because it was awful.
-DmC sold bad because of the DMC fans' crusade against it.
-Bayonetta 2 sold bad because WiiU
 

Windpower

Banned
this post could have easily come from years ago, before Nintendo picked up Devil's and Bayonetta 2. Never say never. It will probably be in smaller quantities which is sad but there will usually be a handful of good titles to drop for the genre.
 
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