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[Cave Johnson]

It really was. Sadly the endless fanboy bitching and whining ruined the game before it was even released.

Oh, stop this hyperbolic sentiment. The devs wanted a wider audience and these people didn't bother with the game. Put your blame towards them instead of the "hardcore" fans who are the minority in a small forum where most of the casual audiences don't follow.

 

[Nintendojitsu]

Since when has the strength of a niche genre been dependent on sales?

 

[sensui-tomo]

The genre wont die if koei can ever put out a 60fps Warriors game, that series will outlast any bayo/dmc/NG guaranteed.

 

[Mass Effect]

It's hilariously sad to me that the hardcore fans that most want another Devil May Cry game are the ones responsible for making the franchise die. The fanboy rage over stupid things such as Dante's hair color gave the game a bad rep on message boards and the like, and more niche titles like these need fans to sing the game's praises to succeed.

I liked DMC. It was a good ride.

Hey look, this stupid shit again.

DmC is a classic example of trying to revamp a known franchise (with a very hardcore base) to attract a new (possibly more "casual"?) fanbase while trying retain the old, and failing at both.

Compared to the originals, it was a shallow game. Let's also not forget that it released along with Metal Gear Rising, which may have hurt its sales.

 

[grandwizard]

Oh good we're still blaming the fanbase for DmC tanking instead of Capcom who took a series at it's sales height and decided it needed a dark edgy reboot by a different developer.

Companies are not entitled to your money. DmC failing is one of the best examples of a fanbase voting with their wallet in recent times.

 

[SandTorso]

Hey look, this stupid shit again.

DmC is a classic example of trying to revamp a known franchise (with a very hardcore base) to attract a new (possibly more "casual"?) fanbase while trying retain the old, and failing at both.

Compared to the originals, it was a shallow game. Let's also not forget that it released along with Metal Gear Rising, which may have hurt its sales.

Bingo, people who claim that the only difference was the story or Dante's new hair don't really know much about the combat system itself. It wasn't just that it was an easier game, it was stripped of complexity and turned into some weird mish-mash of god of war and devil may cry, which while the games are similar in certain ways, they're very different in others.

I just hope we get a true Devil May Cry 5 this generation. Give me the combat of DMC4 as dante and a full game, and I'll be ecstatic.

As for sales, I do think the quote about the genre dieing off because it requires some practice has some truth to it, but I think with the right budget games in the genre can certainly be profitable.

 

[Nemmy]

The genre wont die if koei can ever put out a 60fps Warriors game, that series will outlast any bayo/dmc/NG guaranteed.

It's hardly the same genre.

 

[giancarlo123x]

Oh good we're still blaming the fanbase for DmC tanking instead of Capcom who took a series at it's sales height and decided it needed a dark edgy reboot by a different developer.

Companies are not entitled to your money. DmC failing is one of the best examples of a fanbase voting with their wallet in recent times.

It's height was DMC3SE. All the recycling really ruined the 4th game for me.

 

[WarRock]

It's height was DMC3SE. All the recycling really ruined the 4th game for me.

Sales height.

 

[sensui-tomo]

It's hardly the same genre.

dynasty warriors and the warriors genre is Hack and slash if i've ever saw it, play the game on anything above hard and you'll see a different game.But it not having 60 fps kills it, but dont you or anyone say that the warriors/musou games dont have any complexity to them.

 

[BadWolf]

It's height was DMC3SE. All the recycling really ruined the 4th game for me.

Have you played DMC3 recently?

It has as much as, if not more, recycling than 4. It just paced/hid it better.

 

[Mass Effect]

Oh good we're still blaming the fanbase for DmC tanking instead of Capcom who took a series at it's sales height and decided it needed a dark edgy reboot by a different developer.

Companies are not entitled to your money. DmC failing is one of the best examples of a fanbase voting with their wallet in recent times.

No dude, you apparently don't understand.

Clearly we were just whiny brats that robbed Capcom of their well-deserved sales! We let Dante's hair cloud our judgement!

...

Anyway, I'm kind of worried for the genre too. DMC and Ninja Gaiden seem to be in limbo, and I doubt we'll get another Bayonetta. MGR2 seems somewhat likely, so there's that. A new God of War is probably a lock, but that franchise isn't really the same as the above (it just lacks the depth), even if they are good games.

I'm hoping we'll see some new players as well. Maybe we can get some indie character action games this gen.

 

[thelastword]

It will be ok, SF and fighting games revived last gen. What we need is the old stalwart hack and slashers making a huge comeback in terms of gameplay and solidity of framerate whilst other developers bring some new and great action titles to the table. New faces, new stories. Also, make a great Genji, Onimusha, Otogi, blood will tell etc...it will help tremendously, focus on performance and gameplay.

 

[Nemmy]

dynasty warriors and the warriors genre is Hack and slash if i've ever saw it, play the game on anything above hard and you'll see a different game.But it not having 60 fps kills it, but dont you or anyone say that the warriors/musou games dont have any complexity to them.

Where did I say they don't have any complexity to them? They do, but let's not kid ourselves it's anywhere near the same level as DMC/NG/Bayo (though Sengoku Basara kind of tried to bridge the gap from what I've played of it), and their design principles are different as well. I've had my share of fun with the Warriors games but it's a completely different itch they're scratching, and has little to do with fps.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I'm waiting for $20 Bayonetta 2, I'm part of the problem.

 

[sensui-tomo]

Where did I say they don't have any complexity to them? They do, but let's not kid ourselves it's anywhere near the same level as DMC/NG/Bayo (though Sengoku Basara kind of tried to bridge the gap from what I've played of it), and their design principles are different as well. I've had my share of fun with the Warriors games but it's a completely different itch they're scratching, and has little to do with fps.

sorry about the labeling "you" part,didnt mean to sound so direct in that part. You do understand that the game still has a nice and rich complex(not saying you denied it again sorry, that was my bad before) system since you cant just press square and triangle with max stats in the end game, but its still part of the genre if since its as much hack and slash as onimusha, sengoku basara,dmc, bayo and ng. You have rolls, dodges, a block button and something to attack(and preferably a jump) an example for complex combos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQc05calHxY

 

[BrainZEROX]

Can't wait to see and play God of War 4 though. No news of Devil May Cry since its last iteration, Devil May Cry 4, so it seems like it's a dead IP which is unfortunate. Bayonetta? I never was a fan of the silly characters and universe, plus I was a PS3 owner last gen and I still feel bad about that shit port we got so I don't care what happens to her. The licence just does not belong to the PS universe so I don't feel concerned at all by its future.

So yes, it's a dying genre that seems to evolve in the Dark Souls/Dragon's Dogma/Lords of Fallen/Bloodborne one. Can't say I'm too sad.

 

[Grief.exe]

It's hilariously sad to me that the hardcore fans that most want another Devil May Cry game are the ones responsible for making the franchise die. The fanboy rage over stupid things such as Dante's hair color gave the game a bad rep on message boards and the like, and more niche titles like these need fans to sing the game's praises to succeed.

I liked DMC. It was a good ride.

I found the media was playing that 'rage' up more than reality would dictate.

Most people had problems with the streamlined mechanics and reduced frame rate. Parts of the game are poorly written, but so are many games, including those in the DMC series.

 

[Sayad]

It didn't take long for the Dante's hair strawman to show up, would love to one day meet someone who didn't buy DmC because of Dante's hair color.

 

[Valkyri von Thanatos]

I've been playing through DMC3SE for the first time ever, and I have to say that it really makes me sad that nothing seems to be lined up for a game of this caliber to be released for this generation of consoles. I think Metal Gear Rising 2 is likely, but aside from that, I am pretty unsure that many more of these will be made. It seems like Capcom could really bring it back with DMC5, but Capcom seems content to burn away all its best IP and talent.

Capcom has already said that Devil May Cry is one of their key pillars and we haven't heard from Itsuno since he finished working on Dragon's Dogma, not to mention he expressed desire to work on a new DMC. So I would be very surprised if DMC5 isn't in the works.

I want to believe. Funnily enough, I started playing the DMC HD Collection last year (I played 1 pretty quickly, then took a break after the 1st third of DMC3) because I really enjoyed the reboot. I can definitely see why it is considered a lesser entry in retrospect, but I enjoyed it nonetheless. I only hope there are more like me who were introduced through the reboot, because then maybe Capcom can get them interested in DMC5.

I'm expecting we will see a number of low budget pure CAG's like Legend of Korra with higher budget games taking the form as hybrids (MMO, open world, monster hunter, MP)

I have to ask, if DMC5 were to come out, but be a mix of character action and something else, what would be the best genre to mix it with? Personally a game I want to see would be a game that combines the party combat of the Tales of series (with manual switching between every member) with DMC's combat style. I think there a lot of people who wanted Final Fantasy XV to have multiple character control, the jury's still out on combat complexity I guess though.

My dream game would be something like DMC but on a larger scale, with dynamic switching between control of about 3 to 5 different characters, all being competent as AI, but unstoppable when controlled by a very skilled player. The other characters could assist the "leader" character, possibly even with tag-team moves. Pair it with something like Bayonetta 2's Tag Climax mode (to allow splitscreen or online friends to take control of party members), and I'm in heaven.

 

[DOWN]

Was hoping the title was a clever reference to new Turok rumors

 

[Valkyri von Thanatos]

Was hoping the title was a clever reference to new Turok rumors

Heh, no such luck. Can't say I've ever played the Turok games, but I bet a character action game with dinosaurs would be quite an experience.

 

[direct_quote]

It's unfortunately a genre that indie developers can't save. I have zero interest in those 2d games that attempt to mimic the combo mechanics of DMC etc, because it looks really slow and boring. You don't see any attempts to make 3d action games from Indies because they require a lot of experience and time to develop... (I think I've seen like one that looked ok, but basically was a light version of bloody palace). Makes me almost want to start up development on a 3d hack and slash game for PC, but I'm pretty sure it'd take 3 years to develop with little to no pay off.

I do think that DMC5 will eventually come out, and possibly NG4 and MGR2. I'm actually surprised we haven't heard anything about the next Ninja Gaiden game...

 

[Robot Pants]

Had this thread already but basically we have to trust in platinum for the time being. Hayashi sucks and ruined NG, Itagaki is busy with other stuff.
DMC Team is doing Dragons dogma (or PLEASE surprise DMC5).

MGR was great and MGR2 will be incredible. Probably will end up being one of the best in the genre (my prediction). We just had Bayonetta 2 released just a few weeks ago and while I haven't played it, I hear it's even better than the first. So yea platinum is still
Giving us those games but the rest of the usual creators are busy with other stuff.

The genre has had some acclaimed games but they've never been huge sellers, especially the last seven years.

 

[doofy102]

Platinum games gets deals even though they don't sell because every publishers thinks they'll be the one to finally get a Platinum game to sell.

 

[Astral Dog]

The genre is not dead yet.

Just be glad we still have awesome games like Bayonetta 2 and hopefully Scalebound, (and maybe Rising 2)

Edit: oh i forgot you hated Bayonetta 2.

 

[Permanently A]

I hope not. For me they are the most enjoyable video games out there.

 

[HyperBitHero]

Hopefully not.

 

[Poodle Cannon]

On consoles yeah, seems to be headed there.

 

[Valkyri von Thanatos]

It's unfortunately a genre that indie developers can't save. I have zero interest in those 2d games that attempt to mimic the combo mechanics of DMC etc, because it looks really slow and boring. You don't see any attempts to make 3d action games from Indies because they require a lot of experience and time to develop...

:'( It's not my dream game just because I want to play it, it's my dream project too. Not that I take any offense actually, I know how difficult it will be, but I can say with certainty that character action is the genre I'm most interested in attempting a game in when I finish college. 5 or something years to go though... :'|

Makes me almost want to start up development on a 3d hack and slash game for PC, but I'm pretty sure it'd take 3 years to develop with little to no pay off.

Honestly, just keeping the budget PS2 level low with some nice cel-shading shaders or something could do the trick for me. Playing through the DMC Collection had made me question what the point of polishing graphics is when a game is as solid as DMC1 or 3. With such perfect games, graphics are really icing on the cake for me. Disparaging a game that gets gameplay so right would be like criticizing Super Mario World for being 16-bit, like who does that? It's why Bayonetta 2 looks amazing to me graphically, since it is already above and beyond my expectations. I'd take a game with N64 level character models if it still had an entertaining story, was well animated and played right.

Edit: Oh yeah. It seems like this genre should be open to reducing the barrier of entry in a few cases. I bet that a few more IP's in the E10+ or T range could regain interest, but I guess that might have to neuter a few things, huh? I mean, the genre is based around over the top violence, but I think it can be done in a way that doesn't require the games to be mature. It's one of the reasons it is too bad Wonderful 101 didn't sell much, could have gotten a snowball effect going.

 

[qualitydisc]

MGSR2 could be the last retail 60fps hack & slash we see this gen which is just sad.

Game that hasn't been announced is 60 fps, confirmed.

 

[Jotamide]

The genre cannot die until we get DMC5.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Character action games might be dumb down to "Attack, dodge, counter" games of recent trend. That system seem more popular with the western audience.

The true problem I have with those kinds of games is that you'll never find a decent boss in any of them. The best of Batman's bosses are those that you don't outright fight (Mr. Freeze) speaks volumes about this system.

 

[soy.]

Just by looking at sales trends, ninja gaiden 3, bayonetta and DMC(30fps) reboot all are pretty much considered failures/bomba in terms of sales. I think the only one left that can generate sales is MGSR2 cause of the MGS IP tied to it. after we confirm bayonetta 2 bombing in the US, MGSR2 could be the last retail 60fps hack & slash we see this gen which is just sad.

yeah, dinosaurs! and it will rock!

u're talking about games like this one... aren't u...?

 

[Pyramid head]

Have you played Ninja Gaiden Black?

It's the pinnacle of the genre. Though admittedly I haven't played Bayonetta 2 yet.



It really was. Sadly the endless fanboy bitching and whining ruined the game before it was even released.

Interesting... I'm not really sure that "fanboy bitching" contributed too much to the dumbing down of the combat system, the worthless style ranking, the bland enemies, the terrible bosses and the decision to have the game run at 30fps to be honest.
The "ruining" of the game was probably more to with outsourcing the game to a studio who had only put out games with shit-tier combat up to that point.

 

[exmachina64]

yeah, dinosaurs! and it will rock!

u're talking about games like this one... aren't u...?

That picture has every stereotype.

 

[Coffee Dog]

The genre in the big budget range had a swan song with W101 and Bayo 2. The number of notable titles in the coming gen could probably be counted on one hand, and the ones that are actually good will be even less. It's up to indies to pick up the torch now.

 

[Hypron]

Just by looking at sales trends, ninja gaiden 3, bayonetta and DMC(30fps) reboot all are pretty much considered failures/bomba in terms of sales. I think the only one left that can generate sales is MGSR2 cause of the MGS IP tied to it. after we confirm bayonetta 2 bombing in the US, MGSR2 could be the last retail 60fps hack & slash we see this gen which is just sad.

I just wanna point out, the name of the game is Metal Gear Rising so the abbreviation is MGR, not MGSR

Game that hasn't been announced is 60 fps, confirmed.

If it's made by Platinum again it's guaranteed to be a "60 fps" (ie. aiming for 60 with lots of drops) game.

 

[OmegaDL50]

Uh. DMC got some anime shorts years ago. Don't see anything about GoW/Bayo/DMC/NG that could not be adapted as action flicks or animations easily.

Bayonetta: Bloody Fate is exactly this.

 

[ramparter]

after we confirm bayonetta 2 bombing in the US,

Do we know it bombed or are there any indications?

 

[Feindflug]

The genre in the big budget range had a swan song with W101 and Bayo 2. The number of notable titles in the coming gen could probably be counted on one hand, and the ones that are actually good will be even less. It's up to indies to pick up the torch now.

I have faith that we'll see MGR2 & DMC5 (which will be the true test to see how niche the genre really is).

Also what will Platinum do in the future if the genre is already dead? we know they are working at Scalebound at the moment but I doubt that they are working only at this one seeing how they almost always work on multiple projects so there's still hope I guess at least for this gen.

 

[biteren]

i really hope it doesnt go away, dammit!! where are all the indie Hack n slash games?!?!?

 

[Muchi Muchi Pink]

When DMC 4 came out and sold around 3 mil, this was a number which was considered good. It was pretty earlier in the lifetime of the consoles and madness like 5 mio or bust was not a thing then. DmC was supposed to hit that mark though at first and then was downscaled a lot.

Actually Bayonetta sold ok too or the sequel would have never been green lit at first. The cancelation was done way later when sega restructured the company and scrapped almost everything in the west except for Sonic, Alien and Football Manager.

Itsuno worked on a mobile game after DD and helped out on DmC in the later phases of its development.

 

[ninjablade]

When DMC 4 came out and sold around 3 mil, this was a number which was considered good. It was pretty earlier in the lifetime of the consoles and madness like 5 mio or bust was not a thing then. DmC was supposed to hit that mark though at first and then was downscaled a lot.

Actually Bayonetta sold ok too or the sequel would have never been green lit at first. The cancelation was done way later when sega restructured the company and scrapped almost everything in the west except for Sonic, Alien and Football Manager.

Itsuno worked on a mobile game after DD and helped out on DmC in the later phases of its development.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27228/NPD_Bayonetta_MAG_Darksiders_Crack_January_Top_20.php

bayonetta sold like crap in the US, look at its first month npd, in comparison ninja gaiden 2 out sold it 5 to 1 on 360 alone vs ps3/360. It got to 1.3 million shipped cause of Japan and being in the bargain bin in the west, and that was at a time when action games sold much better then now.

 

[Sayad]

I wonder why Capcom never updated DMC4 like they did DMC3, extra cash for minimum effort. Would love to see DMC try something similar to Ninja Gaiden's missions mode, I love bloody palace, but it lacks really hard individual levels(rightfully so).

 

[Nemmy]

:'( It's not my dream game just because I want to play it, it's my dream project too. Not that I take any offense actually, I know how difficult it will be, but I can say with certainty that character action is the genre I'm most interested in attempting a game in when I finish college. 5 or something years to go though... :'|

Yeah, it's my dream project too, but I can't see myself ever making such a game in a finite time. I wonder if all the programmer/3D modeler/designer/sound artist/etc. character action game fans collaborated, something actually cool could be achieved. Hey, let me dream!

 

[Finale Fireworker]

There are so many acronyms in this thread. It's like codebreaking.

 

[Celine]

Based Itagaki will save the genre.

Believe.

 

[Valkyri von Thanatos]

Yeah, it's my dream project too, but I can't see myself ever making such a game in a finite time. I wonder if all the programmer/3D modeler/designer/sound artist/etc. character action game fans collaborated, something actually cool could be achieved. Hey, let me dream!

It would be a great undertaking. A collaborative project could only work under very strong direction. Personally, I think it could be done, but the only games I've "made" so far are examples out of a book, so I think I'll let my skills grow for a few years . If I were to have a kickstarter, It'd be years into a production. I wouldn't want to present a game I wasn't sure I could finish, and that'd have to be after figuring out the core of the entire game, with any funding raised perhaps aimed at raising the production values to higher standards. Again, nothing serious is planned, but I do wonder if starting with a flexible engine could make remaking assets in greater quality after the majority of a game's production is viable. If so, it would be pretty convenient to start barebones and work from there. Start with polished N64 graphics, and aim to increase the graphics after nailing the gameplay prototypes. Hmm... I wish I could start now X|.

As for the topic at hand, I hope character action games hang in there. I really think they are mechanically the best feeling games to play if done just right. It's too bad that games and gamers will oftentimes turn down fantastic gameplay in order to appeal to realism. I've never played God of War, but I hope Sony has something great planned for the franchise.

DMC5 would be beast. I ran across this post, and if it does get announced that way, I'd probably be more excited than I am for any other game right now. It just has so much potential, even just a game that rips DMC4's combat and puts it into a more complete DMC3 like scenario would be godlike. I did some looking around, and now I'm not too worried about DMC5 showing up this generation. This statement by Capcom gives me a lot of hope.

 

[Nemmy]

I only played the first God of War, so I don't really know how the newer iterations are mechanics-wise, but I have little love for the franchise. I couldn't help but feel that the developer's main focus was elsewhere and that combat mechanics came last in their design. It's fine if that's what they were going for, but it's not my kind of game in the end.
I miss the days when Devil May Cry was a respected franchise.

It would be a great undertaking. A collaborative project could only work under very strong direction. Personally, I think it could be done, but the only games I've "made" so far are examples out of a book, so I think I'll let my skills grow for a few years . If I were to have a kickstarter, It'd be years into a production. I wouldn't want to present a game I wasn't sure I could finish, and that'd have to be after figuring out the core of the entire game, with any funding raised perhaps aimed at raising the production values to higher standards. Again, nothing serious is planned, but I do wonder if starting with a flexible engine could make remaking assets in greater quality after the majority of a game's production is viable. If so, it would be pretty convenient to start barebones and work from there. Start with polished N64 graphics, and aim to increase the graphics after nailing the gameplay prototypes. Hmm... I wish I could start now X|.

Heh, I was daydreaming about making a 2D character action game like this once: write full code in my spare time, make it work with stickman animations and beeps for sound, release a proof of concept working demo and run a kickstarter to fund proper audiovisuals (and most likely just hire people that can make those properly). I'm a programmer so I guess I could say I would be able to do it on a purely theoretical level, given enough time, but I never worked on games outside of some little projects I messed around with for fun. But I can immediately see a ton of pitfalls with a character action game (getting cancelling just right, managing performance and responsiveness of the controls, designing architecture that allowed me to fine-tune every little detail in a working prototype etc.), and I dread to think of the pitfalls that must be out there that I can't yet see.