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Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade

Jarate

Banned
I'm really not that concerned with graphics in terms of tech, but the screens that have been posted make the game look visually dull. Regardless of what downgrade From was forced to make, the most important thing is that it seems that the art direction was severely compromised, and what they ended up with looks flat. But maybe I'll peek at a few playthroughs to see if if the rest of the game doesn't look quite so bad.

The game looks very pretty, and I have yet to see an area that looks "dull"

The comparison screenshots are generally have all been horrid quality too. If you like the Souls game, you will like Dark Souls 2, unless you are really adverse to the very small changes they made to the movement and covenants.
 

Broank

Member
I haven't really been following the previews and what not besides the reveal (which was obviously not what the console versions were gonna look like) So I'm pretty ignorant of any of this stuff.

I was more surprised with how much better it looks and runs compared to Dark Souls 1.
 
As someone pointed out in the other thread, they're still using the old build/footage to promote the game on Steam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ecITYi40tA

So either it's still false advertising or the PC version will actually look like that still. If the PC version doesn't look more like the old build then people are really gonna go nuts then

A lot of people are still holding out hope the PC version will look like that
 

doofy102

Member
1 thing I do not understand is why in the beta (ps3) Huntsman's Corpse looked fine but in the retail version it doesn't look anything like it. That area had an awesome dark atmosphere but now its like they cranked up the brightness.

Has there been a comparison made of this yet?
 
As someone pointed out in the other thread, they're still using the old build/footage to promote the game on Steam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ecITYi40tA

So either it's still false advertising or the PC version will actually look like that still. If the PC version doesn't look more like the old build then people are really gonna go nuts then

A lot of people are still holding out hope the PC version will look like that

Would be nice but I'm not holding my breath. I'm holding out for 60fps and faster load times more than anything. The reveal will be pretty damn interesting though lol.
 

doofy102

Member
Really seems like it was a last minute decision to remove the lighting. They didn't have enough time to touch up those areas that were never meant to be seen. I wonder how close they came to saying fuck it and risking the performance issues.




The truth right there. It's not even being brought up at all in the OT.

This topic exists because the OT was overrun with people discussing the lighting downgrade and it was just neater to make a separate topic for it.
 
I haven't really been following the previews and what not besides the reveal (which was obviously not what the console versions were gonna look like) So I'm pretty ignorant of any of this stuff.

I was more surprised with how much better it looks and runs compared to Dark Souls 1.

I can tell you the PS3 version does not run as well as DS1.
 

doofy102

Member
This is either really disgusting, or really exciting.

Hmm. Not falling for it a second time.

edit: I'm noticing that this topic is being sourced in various gaming media sites. Does GAF actually do gaming "journalists" more investigative work for them? I remember lots of articles that have linked to GAF. As a junior this just feels rad is all I'm saying.
 

JRW

Member
wow... everything felt so... dull and grey when playing the x360 version... guess the thread explains a lot of my lack of excitement when playing through these NO-CONTRAST environments xD

Ya I had to make adjustments to my TV to help compensate the lack of contrast & greyish black levels, I've never had to do that with 360 before, DS2 is the first.

But as others have said the game itself is quite good and I'm glad they got 360 version running 35-40fps avg. this time around (DS1 didn't have the best framerate).

Update: Changing the "Reference Level" from Standard to Intermediate got rid of the grey'ish black level and also gave a slight boost in contrast, Worth a try at least. (using a Kuro plasma 5080HD).

Reference adjustment is under Settings / System / Console / Display.

txNUQqS.jpg
 
Another thing they talked about recently is how they improved the animations after the beta, but it looks the same to me. Walking still looks really stiff and weird.

Hmm. Not falling for it a second time.

edit: I'm noticing that this topic is being sourced in various gaming media sites. Does GAF actually do gaming "journalists" more investigative work for them? I remember lots of articles that have linked to GAF. As a junior this just feels rad is all I'm saying.

Check it, you're not a junior anymore! And yes, Gaf is often the source of a news story.
 

pottuvoi

Banned
This is the kind of thing that makes me wonder if FROM's hard drives died and they lost a bunch of work. The lower shot looks like the preliminary pass at the level.

It just seems unusual to me to un-make the work that was done, especially when the former is considerably better (and it's not like it was running terribly from the gameplay videos we saw, nor do people seem to be saying i'ts running spectacularly now)
Could it be that they ran out of memory when they connected all the parts of the game?

Certainly would explain why they took out some assets as well as shadow maps etc.

Or they did some tests and forgot wrong settings in config file.. ;)
 

Soriku

Junior Member
Is the PS3 version really bad? Is it mostly just frame rate issues?

Been playing it for a while and I've had no real framerate issues. I haven't had a major dip or anything yet. It's running pretty well for the most part actually.

I think a bigger issue is the loading times.
 

pa22word

Member
Been playing it for a while and I've had no real framerate issues. I haven't had a major dip or anything yet. It's running pretty well for the most part actually.

I think a bigger issue is the loading times.

I'm on the 360v and the loading times coupled with the new (or old if you want get technical about it) way you level up is killing me after coming off the PCv of Dark 1 with its 3 second load times, lol...
 

PBY

Banned
Never played a souls game- 2 questions-

1- should I just play demons souls first? Can prob get it cheap
2- how workable is this game over remote play to my vita?

Thx.
 
Is the PS3 version really bad? Is it mostly just frame rate issues?

PS3 version chugs along pretty poorly but it at least has no tearing.

Never played a souls game- 2 questions-

1- should I just play demons souls first? Can prob get it cheap
2- how workable is this game over remote play to my vita?

Thx.

Dunno about your second question, but yeah, Demon's is still really good. Dark Souls might be a tad more accessible.
 

pa22word

Member
Never played a souls game- 2 questions-

1- should I just play demons souls first? Can prob get it cheap
2- how workable is this game over remote play to my vita?

Thx.

You can but not necessary. However I wouldn't ever recommend playing Dark 2 before Dark 1. Dark 2 is a looot more punishing (not more difficult, but the game hammers you way harder for dieing than dark 1 does) and kinda almost designed for people who beat dark 1.

As for remote play I'd venture to say not at all? That's only a thing for PS4 games iirc.
 

big_z

Member
Ya I had to make adjustments to my TV to help compensate the lack of contrast & greyish black levels, I've never had to do that with 360 before, DS2 is the first.

But as others have said the game itself is quite good and I'm glad they got 360 version running 35-40fps avg. this time around (DS1 didn't have the best framerate).

Update: Changing the "Reference Level" from Standard to Intermediate got rid of the grey'ish black level and also gave a slight boost in contrast, Worth a try at least. (using a Kuro plasma 5080HD).

Reference adjustment is under Settings / System / Console / Display.

txNUQqS.jpg


Doing that will crush black detail. I was actually trying something similar with my Panasonic.

The washed out look is because the game is using an incorrect gamma profile.

In the original dark souls brightness option setting it to 1 would make both the dragon invisible and the flame hard to see. Setting it to 10 made both very visible. In the middle you see the flame but no dragon like intended.

In dark souls 2 it doesn't matter where you set the slider both are always very visible. It doesn't affect the gamma level like the first game. Instead it simply pushes the overall brightness higher or lower.

It should be a simple fix but it requires a patch. It's something you cant fix with tv settings. Someone needs to bring it to from softwares attention ASAP because the game would look a lot nicer with proper gamma levels.
 
resistfire01.jpg


What happened to the Light Radius thing which Dark Souls stole from Diablo2?
You can clearly see it in the demo, but I can't see it in the retail version.

PS. Dark Souls 2 almost looks worst than D2 in terms of atmosphere...

The words 'worse', 'atmosphere' and 'Diablo 2' don't really work in the same sentence.
 

robin2

Member
That's a tough position to be in for a developer. Most of the previews this game had were in the form of live action trailers, then we had a beta, then we had a few videos mostly shot off-screen that showed the areas that have been downgraded in the final build.

The developers would obviously intend for the game to look its best, but what could they do when they, as a team, realize the hardware just cannot run the game at an acceptable level without some changes? Announce to the world that the game now looks worse in some areas, perhaps they were gagged by their publisher, because who would intentionally inspire doubt toward a game that is only beginning to take off as a franchise? The alternative was to just make the best possible game they can make given the hardware, and likely budget constraints, and deliver a game worthy of the Souls franchise.

I like the option they picked, because it probably was difficult choice to have to make either way. Ultimately, it resulted in a great game which is enough of an achievement in its own right.

You need to showcase a product properly, so that people can choose properly. No matter what vicissitudes happened behind it.
Yes, embellishment is common when showcasing , but the gap here is just too wide, going straight into false advertisement territory.

Therefore they have to clarify. They have to show how their product really is, and they have to do it now, since the game is already on the market (even on PC with pre-orders).

Then people will decide for themselves, based on their personal preferences. I don't give a shit about graphics so I'll likely buy it (I don't pre-order) but I still want the product to be represented to the potential customer in a honest fashion.
 

Sickbean

Member
Doing that will crush black detail. I was actually trying something similar with my Panasonic.

The washed out look is because the game is using an incorrect gamma profile.

In the original dark souls brightness option setting it to 1 would make both the dragon invisible and the flame hard to see. Setting it to 10 made both very visible. In the middle you see the flame but no dragon like intended.

In dark souls 2 it doesn't matter where you set the slider both are always very visible. It doesn't affect the gamma level like the first game. Instead it simply pushes the overall brightness higher or lower.

It should be a simple fix but it requires a patch. It's something you cant fix with tv settings. Someone needs to bring it to from softwares attention ASAP because the game would look a lot nicer with proper gamma levels.


I've got the opposite (PS3 - RGB set to limited, Panny Plasma)

No matter where I set the slider, the flame is visible but the dragon is always invisible. Very weird.
 

Arkanius

Member
It seems they completely fucked up the gamma levels then, hence the full bright in completely dark areas.
Yes the shadows are still completely downgraded, but it shouldn't look that bad
 
In Vaati's latest video, he gives advice that it's better to just not even bother lighting sconces since it is a "waste of time" but doesn't connect the dots with the downgrade... although he says he does like the lighting effect with the torch active. I don't mean to keep harping on him since he isn't obligated to do or say anything about it, but it would be nice to hear someone prominent in the community to address the downgrade head on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLg0vQ53Df4

Around the 7:15 mark.
 
No and that's the problem, the alpha/earlier build looked better.
Only other game where I felt the same way ( on another scale and genre ) is battlefield 3, where the alpha had better hitreg, no blue color filter, and better destruction.

Aye, it may have looked better but it could have ran like complete dog shit in 90% of the game.

Brand and Vinny on the quick look mention how a build they played not long ago ran terribly.

They made massive downgrades to the game to get it to run well on the current hardware.

If that bothers you so much then do NOT buy the game and wait on a better version.
 

III-V

Member
Ok so here is what we know so far.

3 Builds

iQouT4P80ziv8.gif
iyTet5QAw3QnV.gif
i0CrmVB3rZYOS.gif



Reveal April 2013 (probably on PC), exclusive IGN Demo
1. Complex geometry (look at border of the door).
2. More complex textures.
3. Awesome lightning.
4. Small attention to detail like the cobwebs in the tunnel.
5. Normal mapping on walls of tunnel

TGS Demo Sep 2013 (running on non-dev PS3)
1. Keeps awesome lightning.
2. Reduced geometry (border of the door much simpler)
3. Some details removed like the cobweb of the reveal.
4. Textures look simpler than reveal
5. Has better shadows than reveal??

Retail February 2014
1. Lightning gutted
2. Simpler geometry kept from TGS
3. Textures untouched from TGS


Has anyone thought that maybe they couldnt get the lightning to work on the Xbox 360 version, so they decided to remove it from both?

That darkness. Looks amazing. Its great how in the orig. demo the guy goes back upstairs b/c he can't see shit without the light. PS3 network test looks amazing as well. I had an invite but was out of town!!!

Retail: Now the players body just emanates a dull grey light so no need for torch.
 

Alienous

Member
Aye, it may have looked better but it could have ran like complete dog shit in 90% of the game.

Brand and Vinny on the quick look mention how a build they played not long ago ran terribly.

They made massive downgrades to the game to get it to run well on the current hardware.

If that bothers you so much then do NOT buy the game and wait on a better version.

Sure.

Still want answers, though. Maybe they don't owe us one, but they owe their success to a passionate group of gamers that they have betrayed the trust of. I think the least they could present is an official statement addressing the downgrades.
 

Rambone

Member
The big issue people are having is the lack of transparency. If this was a cross gen game similar to AC:Black Flag where you had a PS3 version and PS4 version that you could upgrade to for $10, then I don't think anyone would give a shit if the PS4 version of DS 2 looked like the reveal version.

The thing is, I don't want to buy the game that Dark Souls 2 currently looks like. I want to buy the game that was initially revealed and I don't know if that will happen.

I mean cmon, as it's been stated before there's a lot more than just lighting missing.

I want this..

ZgVvTXn.png


Not this
p6TwHxV.png


I don't think *higher texture resolution* and *higher fps* is gonna magically fix it for the PC version either. Where did the fucking art assets disappear to?

Looking at the difference between these two photo's is just purely depressing. If the game ended up having as much detail, art assets and lighting as the first picture and all of this was scrapped, this is a big wtf as you can only imagine the things that was in the game we didn't get to see that was scrapped last minute. I'm all for making things run smooth but the second picture looks absolutely life-less, has no "soul".
 
The game is plagued with bugs!

I've seen enemies materializing out of thin air, distant mobs moving at lower framerates, out of sync sound FX (everytime), objects disappearing and reappearing in fractions of a second, enemies not registering my attacks, input lag both in the HUD and most screen menus, corpses floating around or having half of their body inside the walls. . .

The texture quality of most enemies is shit. The hound dogs and skeletons look like they belong (again) to a PS2 game. DS1's mobs had higher poly counts than some of the enemies I've encountered so far.

FROM better fix most of that shit for the PC.

Enemies appearing out of nowhere like that is proof of how not only the game was designed around dark areas but also optimized with that in mind.

Damn, this games performance is horrible for $60.

I expect the original geometry, extra furniture and improved scenery minimum for PC.
 

elyetis

Member
Aye, it may have looked better but it could have ran like complete dog shit in 90% of the game.

Brand and Vinny on the quick look mention how a build they played not long ago ran terribly.

They made massive downgrades to the game to get it to run well on the current hardware.

If that bothers you so much then do NOT buy the game and wait on a better version.
That's part of the problem, we actually don't know that at all.
And it also doesn't make that last minute 'stealth' downgrade right.

And we still don't know if the PC version will also sell a different product that the one they choose to advertise us till the last minute ( and still currently do on the DSII preorder steam page ).

The consumer ability not to buy a product doesn't make every choices from devs/publisher, right/defendable.
 
Aye, it may have looked better but it could have ran like complete dog shit in 90% of the game.

Brand and Vinny on the quick look mention how a build they played not long ago ran terribly.

They made massive downgrades to the game to get it to run well on the current hardware.

If that bothers you so much then do NOT buy the game and wait on a better version.
For the millionth time, the problem is not the downgrade, it's having to find out about it in the fucking retail disc while they were still using the older builds in previews two months ago and in the beta.
 

FACE

Banned
I just don't agree with you folks. There was no crime committed. I didn't even notice it was different from how it was advertised until I entered this thread. I just think actually playing the game would alleviate 90% of the frustration people are projecting in this thread. If you go into the Dark Souls 2 OT, it's marvelous. It's the kind of DS thread we all know and love. People giving stat build comparisons, strategy conversations, item hints, boss tips, etc. Just sucks to have the spirit of Dark Souls get marred by the prototypical online controversy that we all love to pile up on.

Guys, he's right! Why should we care false advertisement when the spirit of the series is being marred?
 

big_z

Member
I've got the opposite (PS3 - RGB set to limited, Panny Plasma)

No matter where I set the slider, the flame is visible but the dragon is always invisible. Very weird.

I'm not sure what ps3 option you should be using(I'm on 360) but your tvs black level should be set to light when playing HD sources. Using dark will crush blacks and makes the dragon never show.
If it is set to light already then you should change your ps3 settings as its crushing blacks. Pannys display standard color profiles.

Again I hope someone brings it to froms attention to fix the gamma levels ASAP. Such an easy fix that would go a long way in fixing the washed out look.
 

DaciaJC

Gold Member
I'm wondering, what would need to be the case for modders to be able to salvage the lighting? Is it possible that From simply "deactivated" the dynamic lighting, making for a relatively straightforward fix, or would it need to be rebuilt anyway? I imagine changing stuff like the geometry is out of the question, but is there anything that could feasibly be done for the PC version?

Apologies if I sound like an idiot, my technical knowledge here is very slim.
 

Garjon

Member
I remain hopeful that the lighting was downgraded for consoles due to a lack of power and will be re-instated for the PC version but I'm not optimistic. Even if all their bluster about PC being the main version was true. That said, if it does look like the console version
 
I'm wondering, what would need to be the case for modders to be able to salvage the lighting? Is it possible that From simply "deactivated" the dynamic lighting, making for a relatively straightforward fix, or would it need to be rebuilt anyway? I imagine changing stuff like the geometry is out of the question, but is there anything that could feasibly be done for the PC version?

Apologies if I sound like an idiot, my technical knowledge here is very slim.

Its possible that it might be a toggle, but my biggest fear is that they never had that lightning working on the entire game, so its entirely possible that a build with that lightning throughout the game simply doesnt exist.

We have only seen that area with that lightning, I guess the forest too from the Network Ver.
 

Sickbean

Member
I'm not sure what ps3 option you should be using(I'm on 360) but your tvs black level should be set to light when playing HD sources. Using dark will crush blacks and makes the dragon never show.
If it is set to light already then you should change your ps3 settings as its crushing blacks. Pannys display standard color profiles.

Again I hope someone brings it to froms attention to fix the gamma levels ASAP. Such an easy fix that would go a long way in fixing the washed out look.

No such setting on mine as far as I can see (TX42GT50B).

It honestly looks better to me than a lot of the images in this thread. The lighting is genuinely useful in some places.

For example, the part in Forest of the Fallen Giants with lots of those big turtle enemies and sconces - it's very very dark without the sconces lit and lighting them makes fighting much easier. Working as intended??
 
Well said.

To anyone still thinking that we're overreacting and just not playing the game, read this! No one's denying the game is great. Yes, people are having fun; great fun, even. Everybody's saying the game still could have been that slight bit greater and that nobody had any idea up until release (this bears repeating) that it would be different, because it was advertised with non-retail-like footage right until the game hit the stores. That is flat-out misleading, no matter how you try to justify it. It was most likely done for performance reasons, but the game's framerate still regularly nosedives, as well as having really crass tearing issues on the Xbox 360. This just leads me to question their development competence. They supposedly built a new engine to counter these problems. They also said they'd prepared for the next generation of hardware as well, which I can only translate as meaning to build an extremely well scalable engine (think Source). Yet somehow, despite these goals, somewhere close to the finishing line, they just suddenly realised their performance was not up to snuff? What kind of planning is that? By the way, the supposedly new engine (I reckon it's just an upgrade of the old one with a lot of systems left intact or at least copied over) still has a lot of the same quirks the old one did--case in point: the low-framerate animations for mobs in distant LODs. At the very least, this smells of overzealous and unrealistic planning, probably after they saw how much money Bamco was throwing their way.

And for the last time, this thread is not just about the lighting engine. We are talking about major gameplay mechanics whose ghosts still echo very clearly in the level design as things that could have been, which indicates it must have been a decision made very late into the development cycle. We are talking about major redesigns of areas with not only merely artistic differences (which by themselves even can be enormous; many areas are, e.g., now filled with a bright grey fog-like appearance), but with fundamentally simpler geometries. We are talking about much, much simpler texture work, a lot less environmental detail, far fewer instances of ambient occlusion, specular shader and normal map usage. We are talking about shadowing effects that now simply seem to vanish as soon as hand-held torches light ambient sconces.

The game is very, very good. There is no denying that and no one of the so-called 'crazies' here really thinks that. The game is actively being enjoyed by nearly all its players. But that is not the point. The point is not even that the game can indeed be gorgeous. It is, in fact, quite schizophrenic in its look. The point is that all of the above adds up to a change in atmosphere that differs very drastically from the original vision that was, again, presented and advertised to us right up until release. So does the false advertising charge just not hold up because the game is not actually bad like Aliens: Colonial Marines was? No, of course not, and it is intellectually dishonest to think that.

All we want are straight answers by now. It feels wrong to be deceived like this, but I doubt anyone takes it as seriously as if this were a bad game, so I wouldn't bet on any real boycott or, heck, class-actions forming. So, for now, we're content with answers and maybe, just maybe, a PC/next-gen port with at least some of the content re-introduced.

giphy.gif


This should be sticked in the thread, can't believe people can't get what the issue is about...
 

Sephzilla

Member
I totally understand what has people upset, I'm just not seeing why it's such a huge deal. Obviously being bait-and-switched sucks. But the game is still fantastic. This isn't an Alien Colonial Marines situation where they lied with previews and then the game was dogshit on top of it. Gameplay will always trump graphics in my mind.

That being said, it still sucks that the whole thing got a downgrade (even though I think a PS4/XB1 release is coming) and From should issue an explanation. We can't keep letting bait-and-switches like this go on. But I'm kind of glad the game is no longer a massive Tomb of the Giants.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
This should be sticked in the thread, can't believe people can't get what the issue is about...

Don't mistake "not getting it" for disagreeing with, and being dismayed by this reaction.

To me its like an episode of "My Super Sweet Sixteen" where the birthday kid throws a hissy fit because they just got a really nice car for their birthday, just not the exact thing they wanted/were promised.

Its childish, toys-out-the-pram, acting-out in my view. You don't summarily ignore and discard what you actually got, just because it isnt exactly what you wanted without being called a spoilt brat.
 
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