• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Digital Foundry vs Mario Kart 8

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Yup. The jaggies were pretty bad during the GameStop event last weekend, but their display is awful and not calibrated. That said, I noticed zero hitches/stutters/etc. during my play through. I'm not saying the stutter's not there, but it's not noticeable during game play. People just want a reason to bitch.
No, it's not about that at all. It's completely noticeable during game play. It does not sync up properly with the display refresh rate resulting in micro-stuttering during gameplay. It was noticeable to me within seconds of starting my first race.

I really hope it'll get patched. The loss of one frame doesn't sound drastic, but it can do a lot with the visual presentation and the feeling of smoothness.

I remember when FEZ PC came out, it was software-locked at 59 fps (by error) no matter what set-up you had for some reason, and it was very noticeable.

On the plus side, FEZ got patched really quick so that it ran at 60, and therefore I'm optimistic about EAD being able to patch-fix this. I don't think it has to do with hardware limitations.
Ding ding ding, this is exactly the same type of problem. The 59 fps bug was an XNA problem and still persists in the 360 version, it should be noted. As we saw with FEZ it was highly irritating to some, but not all, people.
 

Briarios

Member
None. That should be telling (but then, the article itself mentions it will only affect a minuscule minority).

And that minuscule minority will be pretending to see something they don't so that they can feel special. There have been plenty of studies about this sort of effect. If you tell people something is happening, even if it is not some of them will perceive it anyway.
 
Imagine if all these people replying with "HAHA lol its 1 frame what does it matter?!" actually had a clue what people are actually concerned with.

Yeah it's pretty annoying. It's not like we want to bash the game, it's just a minor issue with it, nothing more. But it's worth to point it out.
 
Probably meant "Obvious when you're looking for it."

As the DF article states, once you see it, it's hard to unsee it. I don't think it'll be enough to really bother me when I play it... but we can at least stop pretending now that there isn't any difference.
Its one of those differences that dont matter though..just "technically". Nintendo false advertise I guess.
 
And that minuscule minority will be pretending to see something they don't so that they can feel special. There have been plenty of studies about this sort of effect. If you tell people something is happening, even if it is not some of them will perceive it anyway.

And then there are those pretentious people who come into a situation, don't see it themselves, and then go on to decide since they don't that no one else must either and it's entirely in everyone's heads.

Simple fact is that this IS a thing. You can check the frames on any MK video captured at native 60fps and see this phenomenon. Some people are going to be sensitive to it... There are likely to be a few who will insist on it, just because they like having that negative Nintendo point... but you really shouldn't write off everyone just because they see things differently from you.

(edit) To be clear, I'll still play and enjoy this game. I love MK games and my favorite is MK64, so I can hardly fault frame rates for enjoyment there. The people that are saying this will completely ruin the game for them are likely exaggerating/never going to get it to begin with. I do, however, hope they fix it because it IS noticable to me.
 

Lernaean

Banned
Just when you thought that there is nothing else they can say to shit on one of the best games of 2014 so far, you have DF and all the good willing people jumping in and putting all the videos shown so far under the magnifying glass to catch a stutter.

In the meanwhile there's little chance to play the majority of games out there on any platform and try to turn the camera without vomiting because of the stream of stutters but DF and everyone else fails to notice it.

I really can't wait for MK8 to be released so i'll have a solid reason to take a couple of days away from the internet.
 

Qassim

Member
And that minuscule minority will be pretending to see something they don't so that they can feel special. There have been plenty of studies about this sort of effect. If you tell people something is happening, even if it is not some of them will perceive it anyway.

I wish this were true. I've played games on PC where for some reason the game is capping at 59fps or regularly dropping to it for whatever reason - and because it is out of sync with my refresh rate - it is really annoying.

This is before I turn a framerate counter on, in those situations, I can't play it until either the developers fix it or a change my refresh rate to 59hz.
 

StuBurns

Banned
In the meanwhile there's little chance to play the majority of games out there on any platform and try to turn the camera without vomiting because of the stream of stutters but DF and everyone else fails to notice it.
You're talking shit, please stop doing that.
 
Watched it 4 or 5 times now. Still don't see it.

I can't not. I hate being sensitive to motion.

You probably don't cringe when watching 24 FPS movies at 60 Hz either, but I do. This is a real shame, and one I hope Nintendo can and do patch for the few of us that can't help but see it. I thought the stuttering in webm and videos on the official site was just an issue with my PC or the encodes.

:/
 

shaki123

Member
I have noticed the DF article says nothing about online, which is what this game is about mostly. Can anyone knowledgeable tell us if it's offline only?

dark10x, please make the article more complete
 

Mr-Joker

Banned
Upon analysis we determined that the game suffers from extended clusters in which a duplicate frame is displayed every 64 frames. What this ultimately means is that, during normal gameplay, Mario Kart 8 continually drops down to 59fps. This may not seem like a big deal - most will probably not notice it at all, and it has zero affect on playability - but it has a noticeable impact on image fluidity that mars what would otherwise be a perfectly consistent frame-rate. And for us at least, once it is seen, it can't really be unseen.


Oh wow one digit different, sooo game breaking. ¬_¬;

Think I am going to ignore Digital Foundry from now on, as I don't give a crap about FPS.
 
Its one of those differences that dont matter though..just "technically". Nintendo false advertise I guess.

They didn't falsely advertise. A bug or a hiccup is hardly the case to claim that (yes yes, you're being facetious but still :)) As for not mattering, it's the same as when you play a beautiful game but your character model has 1 really low res texture on it. Is it enough to say the game is bad? No, but your eye can be drawn to it constantly... It's incongruent with everything else happening. Mildly distracting, etc.

Watched it 4 or 5 times now. Still don't see it.

If you watch the lettering as it goes by, there is 2-3 points where it seems to "freeze" for a split second. It's not huge, and even if you do see it, it's not likely to bother you.
 

LoveCake

Member
Tempted to agree with everyone regarding how the stuttering can impact if the fps is not locked, first it was apparently 1080p 60fps & now it's 720p 59/60fps.

I have this already on pre-order with a discount at a good price of £34 so don't really want to cancel, but i have Wolfenstein: The New Order which i am loving & WatchDogs for my PS4 on the way.

I cannot believe the WiiU has seemingly hit it's limit already.

Still a few days for Nintendo to say something on the matter, but waiting for a patch from Nintendo is measured in eon's.

Watching the video it is more 59fps than 60fps.

/disappointed
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Oh you didnt hear Nintendo "blew it" with this one frame stutter that 99% of the people that will purchase or have already reviewed the game noticed?
Is that really what you're taking away from this?

It's an annoying issue and one that was instantly noticeable but I still feel it's an amazing game and would never dissuade anyone from playing it. They didn't blow it, but the problem is uncharacteristic of Nintendo. They're games usually *ARE* flawless in this regard which is why it's disappointing here.

I cannot believe the WiiU has seemingly hit it's limit already.
I wouldn't say this is due to any theoretical limit. It's more likely a bug.

Oh wow one digit different, sooo game breaking. ¬_¬;

Think I am going to ignore Digital Foundry from now on, as I don't give a crap about FPS.
My good man, I urge you to read through this thread again and consider WHY it's an issue. It's not simply a matter of a single frame that's the issue, rather, it's the fact that it breaks sync with the refresh rate of a 60Hz display. It causes persistent micro-stuttering.

What good would an article like this be without mentioning a problem such as this? The game is still amazing and this shouldn't dissuade you from playing it but it's something worth noting.
 
Is that really what you're taking away from this?

It's an annoying issue and one that was instantly noticeable but I still feel it's an amazing game and would never dissuade anyone from playing it. They didn't blow it, but the problem is uncharacteristic of Nintendo. They're games usually *ARE* flawless in this regard which is why it's disappointing here.


I wouldn't say this is due to any theoretical limit. It's more likely a bug.

Why do you constantly ignore posts asking you what's the performance ONLINE?
 

Lernaean

Banned
You're talking shit, please stop doing that.

Ok, i'm talking shit while you hold the ultimate truth.
Please tell me there are no technical issues in countless of games out there, game breaking even and tell me that the press is pointing out all those technical issues.

Also that was some classy response, really appropriate, thank you.
 
I love Digital Foundry's extremely thorough analyses, but I can understand why some who don't know what they do are confused by their nit picking. They're often good for learning a little something about graphical techniques, and it's interesting, especially when comparing games with one another.

That said, I tried to notice it in the webms posted here, and I didn't. Even though I highly doubt I'll notice it in game, I do hope they can and will patch it. I wonder what's going on in that dropped frame... Maybe AI updates?

Very interesting how split screen works, though. It almost guarantees that input will be polled at 60 fps instead of 30, as mentioned already.

Ok, i'm talking shit while you hold the ultimate truth.
Please tell me there are no technical issues in countless of games out there, game breaking even and tell me that the press is pointing out all those technical issues.

Also that was some classy response, really appropriate, thank you.

He's probably referring to the part where you say that DF doesn't notice tiny issues in other games. They most certainly do.
 
Just when you thought that there is nothing else they can say to shit on one of the best games of 2014 so far, you have DF and all the good willing people jumping in and putting all the videos shown so far under the magnifying glass to catch a stutter.

In the meanwhile there's little chance to play the majority of games out there on any platform and try to turn the camera without vomiting because of the stream of stutters but DF and everyone else fails to notice it.

I really can't wait for MK8 to be released so i'll have a solid reason to take a couple of days away from the internet.

What have they failed to notice, exactly? Don't cast stones without examples.
 

BY2K

Membero Americo
Either way, it's more likely a bug. But since patches with Nintendo aren't sure thing, I don't think this is getting fixed.
 

DeaviL

Banned
I tried noticing but i can't,
and i'm one of the 30FPS is a "crime" people.

Any chance this is review copy only?
 
Either way, it's more likely a bug. But since patches with Nintendo aren't sure thing, I don't think this is getting fixed.

Nintendo has been pretty good with patches on the Wii U(see Pikmin 3) and 3DS (see Pokemon X and Y). A super popular series like Mario Kart? You can bet there will be patches, but that's no guarantee that this issue in particular will be fixed.

I tried noticing but i can't,
and i'm one of the 30FPS is a "crime" people.

Any chance this is review copy only?

Review copies, in this case, are identical to the final version. Unless there is a day-1 patch (not out of the question) this analysis is probably spot on for the game at release.
 

Makai

Member
And that minuscule minority will be pretending to see something they don't so that they can feel special. There have been plenty of studies about this sort of effect. If you tell people something is happening, even if it is not some of them will perceive it anyway.
Look, I can see it at regular intervals. If it's patchable, I hope EAD works on this ASAP.
 

Currygan

at last, for christ's sake
hey, for once I decided to play devil's advocate and go "against" Nintendo...to be taken seriously, DF has to take its own job even more seriously. Even if a single frame drop doesn't mean shit, they have a duty to tell it, it's a in-depth technical analysis after all. Does that mean being nitpicky? yep, but the other way around would be much worse
 

Lernaean

Banned
He's probably referring to the part where you say that DF doesn't notice tiny issues in other games. They most certainly do.

What have they failed to notice, exactly? Don't cast stones without examples.

Read this and tell me where they point that the game was mostly unplayable for half a year.
As i said, i may be talking shit as our classy thread mate pointed but unlike DF i'm not getting paid to write about it.
 

Dicer

Banned
Poor WiiU needs an upgrade. I really wish we were playing N games in 1080p native at 60FPS with decent AA instead of getting the controller. I wish this quite often.

Well, it's not like you are getting that anywhere anyway consistently....so maybe EVERYTHING needs an upgrade.
 
So, like the problem is noticeable by how Mario almost looks like he applies his brakes next to the Star Cup letters for a brief moment, or am I seeing something else? If so, that's actually a little jarring and I hope it can be fixed. It's not jarring enough that I wouldn't want to play the game or anything, but I could see how people might not like it.
 

T-0800

Member
Are online races affected by this?

I'm one of those people who won't be able to unsee this. If online races are unaffected I assume it will be patchable. If they are then I don't think it ever will be.

I understand that time trails run at 60 but that is probalby because there are limited races. If online with 12 races is unaffected there isn't really a reason why AI races should be.
 
By the way, there is also the possibility of adding CPU racers in online “Tournament” mode, but the person who wrote this article (dark10x) apparently didn't do his job of testing it and reporting it properly.

I'm also still interested in 2P splitscreen online performance, but the person failed to report it in the article as well. All around, it feels like incompetence and incompleteness.
 
So, like the problem is noticeable by how Mario almost looks like he applies his brakes next to the Star Cup letters for a brief moment, or am I seeing something else? If so, that's actually a little jarring and I hope it can be fixed. It's not jarring enough that I wouldn't want to play the game or anything, but I could see how people might not like it.

Pretty much. It's not a huge deal, I pointed it out there because that's where I thought it was easiest to notice. It's not huge, and if I'm playing versus watching I likely won't notice it at all.

Are online races affected by this?

I'm one of those people who won't be able to unsee this. If online races are unaffected I assume it will be patchable. If they are then I don't think it ever will be.

I understand that time trails run at 60 but that is probalby because there are limited races. If online with 12 races is unaffected there isn't really a reason why AI races should be.

The person who wrote the article posted here and said it was fine online. It seems to be only associated with bots, not with the amount of racers.

By the way, there is also the possibility of adding CPU racers in online “Tournament” mode, but the person who wrote this article (dark10x) apparently didn't do his job of testing it and reporting it properly.

I'm also still interested in 2P splitscreen online performance, but the person failed to report it in the article as well. All around, it feels like incompetence and incompleteness.

Careful, or you might grind that axe into non-existence.
 
Starting from the top, then, there has been a surprising amount of confusion surrounding the resolution of the game with some sources even suggesting a native 1080p presentation.

I don't know if they're indirectly admitting their mistake by linking to an article that cites eurogamer for their claim about 1080p or if they just googled "mario kart 8 1080p" (without the quotation marks) and gave the first link that popped up. Either way, hopefully they don't spread false information in the future.
 
Top Bottom