beautiful story, should be made into a movie. but on topic DF job is to break down the techy aspect of the game and tell you. Just unfortunate that people will cancel preorders due to this news and miss out on a great game.
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Digital Foundry vs Mario Kart 8
- Thread starter XDDX
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beautiful story, should be made into a movie. but on topic DF job is to break down the techy aspect of the game and tell you. Just unfortunate that people will cancel preorders due to this news and miss out on a great game.
Yeah, thankfully it does not play in slow motion and looks fine at regular speed. This is a non-issue.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I suppose it's worth noting that in one Pikmin 3 bug fix patch Nintendo did address slight framerate drops that happened reliably during certain animations in the game.
No way to know if they'll consider this a significant performance issue however. It does seem like an honest bug. Especially since other 60fps Wii U games developed by Nintendo and Retro have no oddities in their framerate.
No way to know if they'll consider this a significant performance issue however. It does seem like an honest bug. Especially since other 60fps Wii U games developed by Nintendo and Retro have no oddities in their framerate.
Opus Angelorum
Member
I'll take 59 frames over 30 for a racing game.
Holy Order Sol
Member
Is this the kind of thing that can be fixed?
Seems to be the reason.
I'd love to learn what the cause of the dropped frame every second is. Seems to be something funky about the timing.
Shame about the lack of AA and filtering. No surprise given the HW, but the art style really benefits from smooth IQ.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
It doesn't run at 59fps. The scene refreshes at 60hz and in a straight sequence of 60 frames you get 60fps. But for some reason the 64th frame in a sequence is a duplicate. Quite odd.
Sure.
*In which people don't notice the confirmation that the game runs at 60 online, i.e. the mode you'll be playing the vast majority of the time.*
If it actually is a bug/design flaw as opposed to a technical constraint, yes.
The real question is if Nintendo feels it's urgent enough to merit a patch.
If it actually is a bug/design flaw as opposed to a technical constraint, yes.
The real question is if Nintendo feels it's urgent enough to merit a patch.
Interceptor
Banned
So it is 1080p / 59fps?
720p
Opus Angelorum
Member
So is it an issue with the framebuffer? That should be fixable.
Yeah it's a bug for sure. Hopefully Nintendo will fix it. (and it would be nice if they patched in a bit of anti-aliasing whilst they're at it)
It's crazy that they didn't detect this themselves. I would've thought they would have ran the game through a framerate analysis before it went gold.
It's crazy that they didn't detect this themselves. I would've thought they would have ran the game through a framerate analysis before it went gold.
Interceptor
Banned
It seems to be a bug with the AI.
Game runs at 60fps in time trial or whatever.
Game runs at 60fps in split screen VS (no AI).
But as soon as you get a CPU controlled player on screen, you get the repeated frame issue.
At least this is how I'm understanding it.
brandonh83
Banned
One of the first things I noticed when I played the demo was that it wasn't a constant 60fps. Game is still very pretty and smooth enough, though.
Probably, but I'll miss that feature from Sonic. Giving the Gamepad player their own screen was a nice little touch.
It could be a bad value or something, but it could also be that the AI messes something up and fixing it would be too complicated.
Wait? that's it?, I mean now that you pointed it out I can see it, but man wth lol. I'm just glad I dont notice that stuff, blessed even.
So, you do know jack shit, you don't see jack shit, you probably weren't even able to tell if the game ran at 25FPS but you know ONE thing for sure: It's a MINOR issue. It's not just something you don't notice because your perception is sub par or you are just used to shit, no. It's not you. It's the OTHERS whose fault that is, because it's minor!!!
Great logic and stuff. Go on.
Happening every 64th frame doesn't sound like a bug, it sounds like a cheat to reduce CPU load for the AI.
Rather than the AI running constantly it's using the time of the repeated frame to update all the CPU players. Making a decision and giving them a target effectively for the next 64 frames.
The engine is pushing the Wii U harder than previous ones so it's possible they hit a limit. If the AI was running every frame and didn't calculate things in time you'd end up dropping to 30.
Rather than the AI running constantly it's using the time of the repeated frame to update all the CPU players. Making a decision and giving them a target effectively for the next 64 frames.
The engine is pushing the Wii U harder than previous ones so it's possible they hit a limit. If the AI was running every frame and didn't calculate things in time you'd end up dropping to 30.
Otakumegane
Member
If it's an internal timing issue that just totally slipped QA I guess they could patch it pretty easily. At least that's what it sounds like.
They might patch it being a game built from the ground up for Wii U, but Wind Waker HD's framerate was never dealt with :/
What's interesting, and a detail I didn't mention, is that playing with a ghost (in time trials) does not incur this hit either. It really is limited to active AI racers. If you play online with AI racers in the mix you're going to see this issue. Provided you're playing only with humans you'll be fine.
LegendofLex
Member
SM3DW is way less computationally intensive than Mario Kart 8. Like, I doubt it's even a close contest.
bobbychalkers
Member
I'll just treat it like I do oxygen, I'm aware its there but I'm never noticing it or actively think about it. I looked at the example posted and didn't notice a thing until I saw it slowed down.
If its consistent then its a feature not a bug!
.
If its consistent then its a feature not a bug!
kidding
Apophis2036
Banned
You cannot play two player mode with one person on the TV and the other on the Gamepad getting a whole screen to themselves ?.
I can't even see that when looking for it lol...
LegendofLex
Member
Nope.
Apophis2036
Banned
Just lol... and people wonder why some ask for a Gamepad free SKU to bring the price right down, first party developers can't even be bothered to use it in the most simple ways. Sonic All Star Racing had 5 players with one using the Gamepad FFS and it was a launch game...
Really? Because it looks a hell of a lot better, and it looks much more 'active' on screen frequently.
Does the number not matter? Like only having one AI car (if possible) causes this as well?
They're probably quite equal given the similar framerate. Perfect Dark Zero is computationally intensive, but that doesn't automatically make it good looking.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I obviously didn't read the entire thread, but I shouldn't have to. I'm just not buying the basis of Digital Foundry's argument here. I think what's more likely to be the case is that this is evidence of how insanely flawed Digital Foundry's method of analysis can truly be. We appear to have a situation where their tools or methods of analysis are telling them one thing, and then they're desperately trying to seek ways to rationalize the data they're getting by exaggerating the perceived impact, despite the fact that it appears the game in action isn't supporting what they're suggesting.
"Notice how the frame-rate inconsistencies manifest during gameplay. This issue is difficult to observe in a 30fps video but quite noticeable during actual gameplay"
They tell us that we should notice how frame-rate inconsistencies manifest during gameplay based on the video they've provided, and then immediately afterwards tell us how difficult to observe the issue is in a 30fps video. So, which is it? The video either proves on some level what they're saying to be true, or it doesn't. Could it be the only thing from that video that even remotely comes close to proving any of the claims they're making is that framerate number that they themselves provide in the upper left hand part of the screen? Forgive me, but it sounds like they've thought up some bs to defend the integrity of their analysis. If it's truly as noticeable as they say, why not go the extra mile and provide us a proper 60fps video that would prove how very noticeable this is? Because, really, with the exception of their own number that they provide in the upper left portion of this video, nothing in the video supports their claim as far as I can see.
I've always believed to a degree that Digital Foundry's framerate tests sometimes felt as if they were questionable or outright flawed in terms of the data they gave us, and how they then claimed that data directly translates to the actual user experience, and I think this article strongly supports that belief. I may very well notice what they claim when I see this game for myself - and I will considering I bought a copy for my sister in law, which is visiting me for a week starting June - but until I see that for myself, I'm calling bogus on their claims as to how noticeable this supposedly is during actual gameplay.
KojiKnight
Member
Completely different situations. WWHD has an inconsistent frame drop caused from graphic load.
MK8 has consistent frame freezes every 64th frame due to... well... we don't know yet. But we know it's not a graphic issue because it runs perfectly when AI are disabled and in online mode.
This is what I was about to ask. Does it happen online with 10 human and 2 AI?
LegendofLex
Member
AI, physics, and the sheer speed at which you're moving - pretty much everything going on in MK8 is more complicated
Apophis2036
Banned
Why does WiiU have such an issue with AA ?, is it just a design choice to leave it out to hit 60fps on the limited hardware or do the developers simply not care ?.
Pikmin 3 ran at 30fps and still suffered from jaggies and W-101 was riddled with them while regularly dropping below 60fps.
SM3DW and WW HD are the "cleanest" WiiU games I have seen.
Pikmin 3 ran at 30fps and still suffered from jaggies and W-101 was riddled with them while regularly dropping below 60fps.
SM3DW and WW HD are the "cleanest" WiiU games I have seen.
feint_ruled
Member
Whatever point you want to make about DF may or may not be valid, but this is a bad article to make your stand on. This is not a subjective issue he has brought up - you can slow down the video and identify the duplicate frame.
DirgeExtinction
Member
That's the point of a technical analysis. To nitpick.
What the...even just knowing what they are describing I already know how it looks from experience. It you are sensible to fraemrate issues, you will notice it. You can clearly see it in the WebFMs posted here.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Here is a terrifically bad image made by yours truly to visually illustrate what Digital Foundry appear to be describing.
The top image is locked 60fps. Red/blue indicating new frames. In this instance we see sixty new frames are rendered in consistent sequence for each of the two seconds.
Middle image is locked 30fps. Red/blue again indicating new frames, same consistency, but as you can see there's only half the data by comparison.
It doesn't matter if the game is a different number to these. It could be 40fps, 50fps, 59fps, 43fps, whatever. The frame count fits into each second.
The last image is Mario Kart 8. Based on Digital Foundry's observation the 64th frame is a repeat of the previous frame. This is not technically 59fps. 59fps would be like the top two images: new alternating frames throughout the time period. This is not true for Mario Kart 8. Look at the start of the second bar, and you can see two red frames next to each other. That's what's happening. The scene is refreshing sixty times per second each time, but the 64th frame in each sequence is, for some reason, a double up. Not just a drop in frame rate, but a repeated frame.
This is what we call stutter/judder and can be quite annoying for some people. It's also unusual for a game that seems to otherwise render a full 60 individual frames in a second. So yeah, I guess it's a technical bug.
Seems to be, and yes it should be fixable.
The top image is locked 60fps. Red/blue indicating new frames. In this instance we see sixty new frames are rendered in consistent sequence for each of the two seconds.
Middle image is locked 30fps. Red/blue again indicating new frames, same consistency, but as you can see there's only half the data by comparison.
It doesn't matter if the game is a different number to these. It could be 40fps, 50fps, 59fps, 43fps, whatever. The frame count fits into each second.
The last image is Mario Kart 8. Based on Digital Foundry's observation the 64th frame is a repeat of the previous frame. This is not technically 59fps. 59fps would be like the top two images: new alternating frames throughout the time period. This is not true for Mario Kart 8. Look at the start of the second bar, and you can see two red frames next to each other. That's what's happening. The scene is refreshing sixty times per second each time, but the 64th frame in each sequence is, for some reason, a double up. Not just a drop in frame rate, but a repeated frame.
This is what we call stutter/judder and can be quite annoying for some people. It's also unusual for a game that seems to otherwise render a full 60 individual frames in a second. So yeah, I guess it's a technical bug.
Seems to be, and yes it should be fixable.
The reaction to DF articles is crazy embarrassing on here almost without exception. They must have thick skins over there, every single video game fanboy in the world hates them and thinks they're biased against their company of choice.
What I took from the article:
-It looks great and runs great
-The lack of AA is admittedly disappointing and the biggest issue
-It uses a clever solution for 4 player splitscreen
-There is currently a repeating frame every 64 frames that may or may not be an issue to an end user and will hopefully be patched. This falls a bit short of Nintendo's typical technical genius and so is worth remarking on for that alone.
What I took from the article:
-It looks great and runs great
-The lack of AA is admittedly disappointing and the biggest issue
-It uses a clever solution for 4 player splitscreen
-There is currently a repeating frame every 64 frames that may or may not be an issue to an end user and will hopefully be patched. This falls a bit short of Nintendo's typical technical genius and so is worth remarking on for that alone.
This is completely, utterly, 100% incorrect.
I noticed this flaw immediately. I didn't require any tools to inform me that there was a problem. It was obvious and I found it distracting.
When I ran it through the tool set it simply made visible in a graph what I was seeing with my own eyes.
So why is it difficult to observe in Youtube videos? Two reasons, really. For one thing, Youtube playback isn't great for observing frame-rate issues as additional issues tend to crop up due to problems with the player itself. Youtube videos regularly show frame skipping and stuttering during playback that may not have existed in the original video. Secondly, Youtube cuts the frame-rate in half which means each frame should (if the player was working properly) persist for 33ms. The problem with Mario Kart is that a single frame persists for 33ms following a run of frames that persist for just 16.7ms. Youtube cannot display content at this speed and, as a result, everything is reduced to 33ms (again, theoretically as Youtube really just don't work great as a video player but it can still show the relevant data).
JetSetRadio
Banned
Aside from this stutter, everyone keeps saying this game is gorgeous. But it's 720p without AA, what magic are they using there at nintendo? I guess I'll have to see it myself next week.
With it being specifically related to CPU players it's more likely they are using the 64th frame to update the AI rather than everything else.
So not a bug to be fixed, more a cheat to ensure the game runs at effectively full frame rate.
The AI is being updated 1/64 frames rather than every frame, probably because it was taking too long and causing a drop to 30fps.
JordanN
Banned
What a shitty defense.Digital Foundry said:
"Who cares the Wii did 480p, because certain PS3/360 titles had frame rate drops, despite looking massively better as a whole". I accept the Wii U for what it is but please don't embellish it.
I also thought this was funny.
It looks like bloom/emissive material/specular power. Which can be done on PS3/360 and even Vita.Digital Foundry said:
7/9 Here we observe the way light interacts with materials. Notice the sunlight glinting off Mario's kart. Also note the clean shadow, soft particles, and tyre tracks.
It's not even the good kind either.
Thank you for this.
There's no magic here. A game with a good art direction that shows technical proficiency can look good despite some flaws. 720p doesn't instantly render a game ugly and in this case, the lack of AA is barely noticeable in motion for most people, just as very few people notice this judder.
Interceptor
Banned
I take it you are serious on this?