MK9 used time travel, and previous games did Sub Zero's Second Cousin Twice Removed.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Fighting Games Weekly | June 9-15 | Q Bomb is Top Tier
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Karsticles
Member
The story and lore of "get a bunch of good guys together to defeat bad guys so the world isn't conquered", "lots of similarly dressed ninja clans fighting", and "hey look, we found another guy with Sub Zero's powers and we'll call him Sub Zero because he keeps dying but he's too popular to let go of"? Give me a break.
Just create a "Warriors of the Past" section and be done with it. Everyone's happy.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
All far less stupid than "let's use the dragonballs to wish like 15 characters back from the dead after making their deaths the focal scene of the last game."
Give me a break.
Lore is always servicing the game. They've just made it clear that they want to really move forward and introduce the (good) post MK4 characters along with ideas they've had stewing up for a while, given that MK9 was entirely nostalgia driven. Condensing characters into variants helps free up space for new blood.
The Sub-Zero this time (which is almost certainly what the spec suggests it is) just put a massive smile on my face. It's fun.
The Sub-Zero this time (which is almost certainly what the spec suggests it is) just put a massive smile on my face. It's fun.
Karsticles
Member
How, in your mind, does referencing Dragonball Z help your argument about Mortal Kombat? LOL
Slamtastic
Member
Speaking of which, MK9 was MK's "SF4", and X is its "SF3".
Let's hope SF5 follows suit and thanks to 5+ years of providing nostalgia they can jettison the baggage of as many preexisting characters as they can.
Let's hope SF5 follows suit and thanks to 5+ years of providing nostalgia they can jettison the baggage of as many preexisting characters as they can.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
Also this.
They're not bringing back characters not because they couldn't do so without it being really fucking stupid, they're doing it because MK9 was really nostalgia driven and in the interest of cementing the IPs relevance beyond the 90s, they have to bring in a lot of new blood.
SF5 will have the same challenge.
Insert your preferred deus ex machina example of choice.
You and me could probably have more constructive conversations if you would check your attitude at the door.
Karsticles
Member
How are existing characters (I think this is what you mean by preexisting) baggage?
Isn't the lesson from SFII to SFIII "Existing characters make the plane fly!", not that they are weighing the plane down?
Akatsuki Blitzkampf?
I don't suppose there was a giant tank with a skull for a face in it as well was there?
Slamtastic
Member
Undermining the ability to justify the sequel as a distinct and different product that's worth your purchase.
Considering how often the "Super Hyper EX Plus Alpha Turbo" jokes get thrown around (deservedly while Capcom continues to literally do such things, and parody it themselves (DR3 DLC)), they should try to justify 5 as a true sequel and not one of 4's update versions.
Of course, the mainstream might be shallow enough that shiny new graphics does that for them, but Ed Boon stated that he didn't want to make MK9 with a next generation skin, and I support that.
Karsticles
Member
I honestly think that fighting games can only succeed between iterations if the cast grows, though weaker character additions can be cut. I was just talking about this in the Smash Bros. thread:
That is how you make a fighting game roster for a sequel.
Slamtastic
Member
There is a point where there is a limit to reasonable asset creation/balance in relation to roster size.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
I'm having serious doubts that NRS can even properly balance 25ish characters +3 different variations of each character, let alone a game with 50+ actual different characters.
Karsticles
Member
No doubt, but that's why I would be happy if all fighting games retained their models between iterations with slight touch-ups/adjustments and just added more content.
Don't forget that I am also speaking from a perspective of practicality: killing classic characters kills sales.
That is very fair, but I would counter that NRS also releases a ton of post-release balance patches. I don't think that it's terribly important for them to "get it right" on release like it is for a Capcom fighter, which might not see changes for another year...or ever, haha.
Slamtastic
Member
I think it would negatively impact sales to look like a previous gen game, too.
toddhunter
Member
Hopefully MKX sticks to this tradition and really expands on the story of Kratos and Freddy Krueger.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
I think it's very important from a competitive momentum standpoint...which is to say, it probably doesn't matter when it comes to actual sales. But yeah, I think you're right that they would eventually get it right.
Yeah, that was pretty dumb. But even that isn't on the same level as retconning all those deaths. That scene was THE scene in MK9 story mode. Undoing that would make it so that nothing important that ever happens ever has any weight, as dumb as those things may be. It undermines one of the things MK is most known for.
It would be pretty funny in a way if death was rendered meaningless in a series that's all about death.
Karsticles
Member
Isn't MKX cross-gen?
My opinion here is probably a radical one, but I think that custom movesets help alleviate the need for balancing. When characters have multiple iterations to choose from, it's much harder for any particular character to be irrelevant. It also helps with matchup balancing. I like that MKX and Smash 4 are taking this road.
Shouta
Member
Quit until tomorrow.
Passive Assassin
Member
THE HITBOXES WERE TOO REAL FOR WOLFKRONE :{
toddhunter
Member
Good to see Wolfkrone will be playing a lot more. Hopefully he finds some more Viper tech.
Could be just me, but I have played MK since the very original. It has always been about people fighting for no good reason and showing lots and lots of blood.
J. Cage just wanted to boost his movie career. Other characters are gods fighting just for shits and giggles.
Basically it has always been dumb, bloody fun and there is no way you can mess that up. Trying to make sense of it or worry about continuity seems pretty silly to me. People coming back from the dead makes just as much sense as the other shit they made up just to round out the game.
I don't know where i stand on MKX at the moment, i guess it all depends on how they execute on their concept. TTT2 threw everything in and turned out awesome, GG Xrd is a full blown reboot and looks amazing. Then you have SCV which was a failure of a reboot imo, and imagine if SF5 looked and played the same as SF4 only with a bigger cast, everyone would be disappointed. SF5 has to be a complete reboot.
I guess MKX can kinda go in either direction because they didn't force people to buy several retail versions of MK9 to stay up to date.
I guess MKX can kinda go in either direction because they didn't force people to buy several retail versions of MK9 to stay up to date.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
I sincerely apologize to anyone that fought me tonight. I'm piss ass drunk and I know my playstyle is obnoxious as hell when I'm trashed.
I really hate how much better I play when I'm drunk.
Oh I can't wait to go to Evo like this.
I really hate how much better I play when I'm drunk.
Oh I can't wait to go to Evo like this.
That feel of coming back from a tournament so goddamn competitive and fun and hype that, despite driving all night to get you and your crew home, all you want to do is drill more games....
Anyone who plays anime and who can conceivably get to Montreal in the summer can not afford to pass another Ultimate Montreal Air-Dashers up.
Click for UMAD archives
Anyone who plays anime and who can conceivably get to Montreal in the summer can not afford to pass another Ultimate Montreal Air-Dashers up.
Click for UMAD archives
Passive Assassin
Member
http://www.twitch.tv/iebattlegrounds 24 hour smash lock in.
I feel like we'll see more counter picking in this game than any other fighting game so far mainly because:
- Too many characters/versions to actually be able to balance well
- You don't need to learn a whole new character to be able to counter pick
Coffeeling
Member
Remember to monster some of those Gutter Trash 2 archives people! Lotsa good stuff there.
http://www.twitch.tv/thewonderpark/profile/pastBroadcasts
http://www.twitch.tv/thewonderpark/profile/pastBroadcasts
Coffeeling
Member
The only Chun thus far onstream got (deservedly) blown up by Raju's Urien. 
sixteen-bit
Member
one less viper without you
This is partly why I mentioned the Riposte-backlash event. While it's probably true that that particular thread was a poor circumstance to investigate the notion, as it was probably more of a Mega Man thread than a Smash/Nintendo thread: I've always found Nintendo fans to be obnoxiously disingenuous when it comes to their expressed love of gameplay above all else. I often feel most Nintendo fans don't actually care about gameplay nearly as much as they say. Many of them seem to live vicariously through the decades-old PR speak drummed into them and the generation of game-players before them.
Nintendo preaches gameplay as king, so many of their fans believe they are carrying this flag by association.
Converse with them about how their games play. You'll often find the discussions diverted to Nintendo's aestheticisms, aberrant design choices, and their history as a company. Nintendo's games are "fun" but the why they're fun often seems unimportant. It just lies delitescent beneath their appreciation of what makes Nintendo, "Nintendo".
An example: I got Mario Kart WiiU last week. Wanting to learn the most effective way to play the game, quickly, I went into the OT asking for help/resources regarding the game's mechanics and effective strategies. I asked targeted questions regarding drifting, customization, character balance, the wake mechanic, items et al. I did this a number of times. The best answer I got was "Dude, it's a Mario Kart game. Just learn as you go."
*Luigideathstaregif*
I didn't expect people to know all the answers to these questions since the game is still new, but I at least expected people to be interested in learning and discussing how the game fundamentally works. Or at least provide me a resource.
I never looked at the thread again.
There's nothing wrong with distilling your appreciation for Nintendo's games to: "they're just fun". It's the mantle of some cultivated sophistication that many Nintendo fans don and their exclusiveness to Nintendo, that I have a problem with. It's even more prevalent with the Smash community. They claim to enjoy Melee/Smash because "the gameplay is great" but you can't get most of them to play another respectable fighting game unless Nintendo characters are in it.
It's kind of like a person that only knows how to use OSX telling a PC user that they have some fundamental appreciation of how computers work. It's just BS.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
The best way to learn Mario Kart is playing. Its really not very complicated. The hardest thing is the drifting, which you just practice in-game.
I've been playing MK8 off and on for close to a hundred hours now and I couldn't give you some complex Prima Guide shit to it either.
I've been playing MK8 off and on for close to a hundred hours now and I couldn't give you some complex Prima Guide shit to it either.
Not everything needs to be overly complicated and extensively theorized.
I also do not agree that Nintendo fans are unwilling to try other fighters. As a big Nintendo fan myself, I play and buy many fighting games and am always willing to experiment with new stuff.
Part of the reason extremely dedicated Nintendo fans won't try other fighting games is because some often stick with Nintendo-only consoles or have a Nintendo/PC combination while most of the fighting game releases are limited to PS3/360. Hopefully that trend will change soon. Namco's already released a superior port of Tekken Tag 2 and with the Smash Bros. collaboration going on, I imagine Nintendo can convince them to release their future fighters on Wii U as well.
Even though I disagree with you entirely, the point of my post isn't about some arbitrary approach to learning game. It's about showing some enthusiasm for how the game works.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Kimo, you're cool peoples, but when I saw that post in the MK thread, I definitely was wondering if you were serious or not. That was almost over thinking it. Not like the complete dismissal of your question wasn't without fault, but man it's Mario Kart. The most you need to know is how to drift with inward drifting bikes vs outward drifting bikes, how some items work and how to develop a kart or bike build for how you want to play the game. Everything else comes with more play time.
Of course, that's just sweeping the criticism under the rug, isn't it?
Using a strict, theoretical qualification of some player base doesn't reconcile the dissonance on display here. Nintendo fans are willing to try other fighters or they're not. If they cared about fighters, generally, your theoretical base would own the requisite systems. I know we're generalizing, which is why I specifically mentioned the Smash community when it comes to fighters. I've conversed with many competitive and non-competitive Smash players over many years. By and large, they are not interested in playing other fighting games. Even if they may appreciate them on some level.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Again, is that really a Smash thing? There are plenty of people who only play Counter-Strike or Quake 3, and not Halo or CoD or Gears of War. There are Street Fighter/Marvel fans who exclusively play Capcom fighters and not King of Fighters or ANIMAY or Smash Bros.
And Smash Bros is so, so different from traditional fighting games, I'm not sure whats so unbelievable they wouldn't want to play something completely different like Tekken. I love Mario Kart, but I have zero interest in picking up Forza/The Crew/NFS. They're all "racing" games, but that's about it.
And Smash Bros is so, so different from traditional fighting games, I'm not sure whats so unbelievable they wouldn't want to play something completely different like Tekken. I love Mario Kart, but I have zero interest in picking up Forza/The Crew/NFS. They're all "racing" games, but that's about it.
This just highlights the fundamental difference in how we approach games, mimics the early development of the Smash competitive scene, and falls into my criticisms of Nintendo fans in one fell swoop. Believe it or not, early Smashboards era, this attitude dominated that website. I'd say 8 to 1. When I found the site in 2003, the competitive consciousness for the series was just gaining momentum - but not without having to combat sentiments just like this one along the way.
I don't have a lot of time to play games. So I'd rather have a template to work with, so I can learn as fast as possible and maximize my time and fun with the game. I don't have fun playing a game if I don't know what I'm doing. Obviously, "just playing" works too, but I don't have the time to take that approach. It's arguably inefficient, but can be fun. Personally, if I'm driving from Miami to NY; I want directions on how I'm gonna get there first. For some people, getting lost on the way is part of the fun of going on a road trip - but I ain't got time for that.
It's only because you and VJC merely look at Mario Kart as a "party game" that you justify taking such an approach. You wouldn't approach a new fighting game that way, because you would be left behind in an instant.
It's not unreasonable as it's an explanation I've offered before in this thread. I just find it morally dissatisfying that people can't seem to appreciate great fighting game gameplay outside that sphere.
Your examples of Halo, Counter-strike etc. aren't satisfactory examples because the sales and popularity of the FPS genre suggests that there would have to be a lot of overlap. The market's way bigger. Of course, there's people with exclusionary attitudes everywhere. I'm generalizing, and saying the ratio of these people is higher in the Smash/Nintendo community than most places in the larger gaming community.
curious why you feel SCV was a failure and a reboot. do you mean commercial failure?
ViewtifulJC
Banned
or a larger audience of potential FPS fans to draw from vs fighting game fans
Why are you raining on X so hard?
SloaneRisette
Member
Well I guess that problem took care of itself!
I don't think it is. Nintendo games tend to be simultaneously simple and complex. If someone asked me how to get better at Smash Bros., I wouldn't have a lot to say. The game is already easy to pick up and play and whatever I tell you, you can already learn on your own just from playing the game for a few hours. While there are advanced techniques that can be talked about, they are not something that would insinuate 20 pages of discussion.
In contrast, I would have endless things to say for Tekken.
That's very generalizing. Of course there are many Nintendo fans wiling to try other fighters. And I provided one of the possible reasons why some Nintendo fans might not be able to try every fighter. It's not a complete yes or no answer. Doesn't everyone wish they had every console with all the games they want? But a lot of people don't have the courtesy of buying every console and every game and have to stick with what they can afford. Then, it's a matter of choice and Nintendo fans, I'd imagine, would stick with Nintendo consoles. Of course, this is only a potential reason that could explain what you're implicating.
I'm not denying that there are people who only play Smash Bros. and don't have any interest in other fighters. I'm sure people like that exist too but to generalize the entire NIntendo fanbase to fall under that category is kind of going overboard.
I think it's common knowledge that a lot of fans hated the absence of their favorite characters and their replacement with less interesting characters. It was unsuccessful in that sense. But as far as combat goes, I think SCV is top notch.
Osu 16 Bit
Member
MK fans would be mad if they didn't explain how dead characters die. The lore is too important. It's part of the fun. I love how Johnny Cage has died and come back to life like 3 times. They even parodied this in his MKDA story then had him die and come back to life again later. Then him surviving MK9 when almost no one else did was definitely a nod to all this.
New episode of Ultra Excellent Adventures is up on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIHE3H2sykM
Yeah.
To me, it just sounds like you know more about Tekken than you do about Smash.
I was mostly referring to your statement that you disagree that Nintendo fans are unwilling to try other fighting games... and then contriving a highly restricted theoretical base of Nintendo fans that apparently do just that the next paragraph. I've been generalizing from the start for the sake of discussion. I don't believe in simplistic dichotomies or broad generalizations - but culture and consciousness is a thing. That requires some degree of generalization.
But I'll admit that my reasons and evidence for it are unsatisfactory even to myself.