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Kojima on Silent Hills camera perspective & world design
- Thread starter Dusk Golem
- Start date
Wishmaster92
Member
The real reason Kojima is interested in first person view.
I think Norman looks awesome, but no way in hell is he the same level of quality as the environments in terms of photo-realism. We're just not there yet.
It's just not the same. But i wouldn't want the whole game to be 1st person either, that's why my pick is: 3rd person whenever you're outside in big open environments, and 1st person whenever you're inside a house or any other location.
Edit: It looks perfect here
I think Norman looks awesome, but no way in hell is he the same level of quality as the environments in terms of photo-realism. We're just not there yet.
It's just not the same. But i wouldn't want the whole game to be 1st person either, that's why my pick is: 3rd person whenever you're outside in big open environments, and 1st person whenever you're inside a house or any other location.
Edit: It looks perfect here
Spine_Ripper
Member
Why would anyone expect anything different? They've stated multiple times that the teaser isn't representative of the actual game. The interview shows that they've probably only done the basics(story, art design, getting objects on screen, etc.) 2016 is pretty early when you take in the fact that they're still working on TPP.2016?!
Black Soma
Member
So this is probably fake?
Anyway, I hope it's a classic Silent Hill. Third person, exploration, combat, and puzzles. Hopefully it's not an Amnesia clone. Now that would be disappointing.
Anyway, I hope it's a classic Silent Hill. Third person, exploration, combat, and puzzles. Hopefully it's not an Amnesia clone. Now that would be disappointing.
They've got a whole year and some change to kiss Akira Yamaoka's ass to get em back on board. I can wait.2016?!
They've got a whole year and some change to kiss Akira Yamaoka's ass to get em back on board. I can wait.
Yep, this is my thinking. They don't actually need to kiss his ass, since he's gone on record stating he would absolutely love to score another game, but it would depend on his schedule. He's pretty busy right now, but it will eventually clear. That's when they need to strike, so to speak.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Just making sure, because some people are assuming P.T is Silent Hills when it's not.
But it didn't, it was given to b grade devs trying to introduce new mechanics to the series that Team Silent failed to do with SH4 and they made the mistake of trying to emulate Silent Hill 2, to this day Silent Hill 2 is still one of best horror games ever made while Silent Hill 4 was the fall of the series with ghosts you could not kill, breakable weapons and a hub you walked round in first person that got boring and was no longer scary after your 4th visit and had people running in and out just to save and get back to the traditional Silent Hill experience out of the Room, first person in SH4 was neat idea but failed experiment, which cost the game and probably the series.
My guess about all of this is that the game will be 3rd person while exploring the city and 1st person whenever you enter a house. I actually think that our character in PT has nothing to do with that whole ordeal. Maybe Norman (I will call him that since we don't know the character's name) just had his way blocked somehow and had to cross through that house to find his way back to the street.
All the events he witnessed inside that house have nothing to do with him, he was drawn there only to bear witness to what happened there. Just another ordinary day in good old silent hill. It's tangencial to this thread, I know, but I think he doesn't have anything to do with that family, and by the look on his face when he finally exits the house, seems like he has done that sometimes before, doesn't seem that affected by what he saw.
Or maybe the ending and the gameplay are completely disconnected, who knows.
That would be a smart way to implement both camera perspectives, I think. Keep it 3rd person in the streets and open areas, even to facilitate combat (i'm sure it will have combat of some sort). Whenever inside a house or small space, switch it to first person. That really added a lot of tension that otherwise wouldn't work, were the game in 3rd person view. It would make puzzle solving more compelling, even though I hope they cut down on the randomness and constant showing up of unkillable ghosts. That shit was annoying in SH4, made exploring a chore when you knew you didn't have time to waste, there were spirits on your tail most of the time.
The only game that scared me to a slight degree (ok, it scared me good sometimes) was amnesia, but I docked some points due to the fact it was 1st person, whereas SH reached almost the same levels of fear while being 3rd person, which is an achievement.
I said to myself: "hope no one ever does a proper SH in 1st person, cause I would shit myself". Looks like they heard me and it will be amazing.
All the events he witnessed inside that house have nothing to do with him, he was drawn there only to bear witness to what happened there. Just another ordinary day in good old silent hill. It's tangencial to this thread, I know, but I think he doesn't have anything to do with that family, and by the look on his face when he finally exits the house, seems like he has done that sometimes before, doesn't seem that affected by what he saw.
Or maybe the ending and the gameplay are completely disconnected, who knows.
That would be a smart way to implement both camera perspectives, I think. Keep it 3rd person in the streets and open areas, even to facilitate combat (i'm sure it will have combat of some sort). Whenever inside a house or small space, switch it to first person. That really added a lot of tension that otherwise wouldn't work, were the game in 3rd person view. It would make puzzle solving more compelling, even though I hope they cut down on the randomness and constant showing up of unkillable ghosts. That shit was annoying in SH4, made exploring a chore when you knew you didn't have time to waste, there were spirits on your tail most of the time.
The only game that scared me to a slight degree (ok, it scared me good sometimes) was amnesia, but I docked some points due to the fact it was 1st person, whereas SH reached almost the same levels of fear while being 3rd person, which is an achievement.
I said to myself: "hope no one ever does a proper SH in 1st person, cause I would shit myself". Looks like they heard me and it will be amazing.
Paracelsus
Member
The Room first person indoors, third person classic camera outdoors. It's clearly the way to go.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
according to the trailer they are disconnected, but I like your idea.
I don't think it needs to be first person everytime he is indoors or a house but some parts like P.T definitely, but also try and avoid those becoming the dreaded first person sections that become tedious.
The real reason Kojima is interested in first person view.
I think Norman looks awesome, but no way in hell is he the same level of quality as the environments in terms of photo-realism. We're just not there yet.
It's just not the same. But i wouldn't want the whole game to be 1st person either, that's why my pick is: 3rd person whenever you're outside in big open environments, and 1st person whenever you're inside a house or any other location.
Edit: It looks perfect here
He just needs to deal with it.
Even if he made the whole game in 1st person, what it would be a Silent Hill without any other character or monster?
Alucardx23
Member
Perfect, i was just about to say this.
3rd person outside big open environments
1st person whenever you enter a house
best of both worlds.
Do not make the mistake of making it 3rd person only Mr.Kojima.
This is what I want. It would be even better if they give you the option to change perspective at all times, but this should be the default.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Meh, I don't want 3rd person. It breaks the illusion and immersion and will prevent me from getting any kind of freaked out. In 1st person, the camera could very well be me, my eyes, my actions, so all that happens, happens to me. In 3rd person, it happens to the guy on screen and has little impact to me since I am now seeing the world as a separate entity. Events don't happen to me, they happen to the guy on screen.
Kojima will be missing a huge opportunity to capitalize on 1st person immersion if he breaks that wall.
Kojima will be missing a huge opportunity to capitalize on 1st person immersion if he breaks that wall.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Camera perspective is really going to make or break this game for me. Can't do first person.
Edit: Oh, it's fake? Well alright then.
Edit: Oh, it's fake? Well alright then.
jacksepticeye
Member
Personally I'd prefer first person. I know third person is a staple of the franchise but first person allows for better horror I think. The smaller FOV allows things to startle you more and has that eerie "turning a corner" feeling a lot more.
Plus first person allows for VR support. Which would be fantastic.
I'm not a fan of constantly switching perspectives, just keep it consistent
Plus first person allows for VR support. Which would be fantastic.
I'm not a fan of constantly switching perspectives, just keep it consistent
PsihoPerihelion
Member
Wait. Is Kojima Productions developing or just overseeing like they did with Castlevania?
There are a few moments in SH2 I feel would be better suited to first-person (
). But one thing's for certain. Outdoors = Definitely third-person.
I feel like this is a straight up bad reason to go first-person. If they're gonna do it it shouldn't be for cheap scares but because it heightens immersion or isolation or something.
The place where Pyramid Head stores his great knife
I feel like this is a straight up bad reason to go first-person. If they're gonna do it it shouldn't be for cheap scares but because it heightens immersion or isolation or something.
Squirts Macintosh
Member
I totally agree with the first-person indoors, third-person outdoors idea, I think it would be perfect.
If they can replicate the atmosphere of P.T. inside buildings but make the outdoors more of an open-world survival sort of situation, it could be pretty awesome while keeping things mixed up a bit too.
If they can replicate the atmosphere of P.T. inside buildings but make the outdoors more of an open-world survival sort of situation, it could be pretty awesome while keeping things mixed up a bit too.
Sounds like they are actually involved this time.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Tap R1 to put you in first person, can be used to examine things too
Any melee combat will automatically throw you back into 3rd person, L2 to ready weapon/aim, R2 to Fire (aiming can be done in first person too)
Square to melee, melee and guns should be separate and be able equiped and use at the same time so you can mix, ie steelpipe to knock then down/back and straight into aiming with a gun to finish them.
reynal1287
Member
After playing PT, i'm really hoping they include first person segments.
The real reason Kojima is interested in first person view.
I think Norman looks awesome, but no way in hell is he the same level of quality as the environments in terms of photo-realism. We're just not there yet.
It's just not the same. But i wouldn't want the whole game to be 1st person either, that's why my pick is: 3rd person whenever you're outside in big open environments, and 1st person whenever you're inside a house or any other location.
Edit: It looks perfect here
Fox Engine could definitely use some of The Order's ambient and diffuse skin shaders. Norman still has the plasticy look that plagued most last gen games.
Miss.Selfdestruct
Member
Visit the internet and notice how many people are talking about Outlast, The Evil Within, Daylight, Dying Light, or Alien Isolation. You'll see that there is significant more hype for this playable teaser than there is for horror games released this year. It's called marketing.
SolidusDave
Member
Basically this.
The first person passages were the best part in SH4 (and the only scary parts sadly) and the open world structure was one of the best things in Downpour, I would even say it's the best depiction of the Silent Hill town yet.
So I'm looking forward to have both in Silent Hills.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
A few things:
There is no denying that when it comes to horror there are certain benefits that having a first person camera perspective brings. Don't let the herp-a-derp nature of first person shooters take away the entire benefit of the first person camera to begin with. Which is to create a more intimate association between player and character. When you are in a horror game, that intimate perspective really makes it seem that you - the player - is at risk. Whereas a third person perspective more gives a notion that it's merely the character avatar that is at risk, not you.
Also, saying Silent Hill belongs in third person is doing an injustice to Silent Hill 4 : The Room. In which the first person segments were probably the best aspects of that game.
In addition, changing the perspective will also help keep the series fresh and interesting. All SH games (except SH 4) have been third person.
And lastly, mixing up third person and first person segments will also help keep the game fresh. Third person for more action / gamey and lighter segments. Whereas first person for more scarrier, claustorphobic sections. We all know how third person camera angles go to shit in small rooms and hallways.
Maybe...like others have said - but have outside segments be in third person, whereas indoor segments be in first person. They should consider that and work backwards from there on how they want to do it.
To be perfectly honest, I'd want the whole game to be first person, but I know some core SH fans would be resistant to the idea. Having a third person perspective you know you're going to run into camera problems in tight areas, character animation is always going to be 'off' in an uncanny valley way, etc.
There is no denying that when it comes to horror there are certain benefits that having a first person camera perspective brings. Don't let the herp-a-derp nature of first person shooters take away the entire benefit of the first person camera to begin with. Which is to create a more intimate association between player and character. When you are in a horror game, that intimate perspective really makes it seem that you - the player - is at risk. Whereas a third person perspective more gives a notion that it's merely the character avatar that is at risk, not you.
Also, saying Silent Hill belongs in third person is doing an injustice to Silent Hill 4 : The Room. In which the first person segments were probably the best aspects of that game.
In addition, changing the perspective will also help keep the series fresh and interesting. All SH games (except SH 4) have been third person.
And lastly, mixing up third person and first person segments will also help keep the game fresh. Third person for more action / gamey and lighter segments. Whereas first person for more scarrier, claustorphobic sections. We all know how third person camera angles go to shit in small rooms and hallways.
Maybe...like others have said - but have outside segments be in third person, whereas indoor segments be in first person. They should consider that and work backwards from there on how they want to do it.
To be perfectly honest, I'd want the whole game to be first person, but I know some core SH fans would be resistant to the idea. Having a third person perspective you know you're going to run into camera problems in tight areas, character animation is always going to be 'off' in an uncanny valley way, etc.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
No.
Having Norman's likeness in regards to all the promotional / box art / commercial / interviews / cutscenes and story segments is plenty enough to take advantage of likeness.
Players being able to "kinda sorta see his face" in a third person camera perspective during gameplay segments isn't really a big deal.
PaulKersey
Member
First Person with Project Morpheus support. PLEASE KOJIMA!
Prepare to Die Edition
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
What Silent Hill 4 did you play? lol
Like I said before after the 3-4th visit it was just running in saying whatever to what was happening, saving and getting back to the real game, the first person sections killed that games momentum.
first person should be used like the guy earlier mentioned, but not for everything as they will turn into the dreaded limited and tedious first person sections, that I can guarantee.
I don't agree with this at all. Just putting him on the promotional material and occasionally showing him in mirrors in-game an the occasional cutscene feels a bit baitey.
What we've seen from the Fox-Engine, and how Kojima and GDT love performances/motion-capture, just keeping him obscured or in FPV IS a waste. P.T., but that's exactly what it was. A teaser, and it's not something that should dictate the majority of what people should experience for SH.
Zeuanimals
Member
2016?!
2015 could have a few games delayed to 2016 and I won't even mind. Next year is absolutely packed with games, and it's gonna be a steady flow of games throughout the entire year starting in February.
Would have loved for this to hit 2015 since I do want my horror fix, but Kojima's already releasing MGSV TPP. In that Geoff Keighley presser, Kojima said he sleeps for 4 hours and has trouble staying awake. I don't want the guy to have a heart attack releasing 2 giant games in 2015, one that probably just started production not too long ago too.
eso76
Member
why ?
Yeah, the way they played with players' expectations (save rooms in survival horrors, were sort of a standard after all) turning your safe haven against you, was brilliant.
LookAtMeGo
Member
2016? Im ok's with thats.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Until P.T I haven't meet one person who like them, now everyone likes them
even some reviews when it first came out said it was a neat idea but it could have done without them and ruined the pacing of the game, it probably why Konami didn't butcher it even more in the HD release.
I did enjoy Silent Hill 4 don't get me wrong, and it did get better when it became dangerous later but I got fed up with having to go back to the Room and it became an annoyance more then anything.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
You would lolWell you can go through my post history of old, and see that i liked them long before PT was even a thing.
Nah love Silent Hill just as much as you but I got bored of going back, saving, taking/putting thing in my item box, looking next door etc, the idea was great but......meh.
Other then that and the shitty compressed FMV endings I enjoyed it.
SolidusDave
Member
I just like the changes of the apartment, really. First it was more like welcoming pause from the actual levels, but even early on it felt creepy and claustrophobic.
Later on it just gets fucked up and becomes a hazard in itself.
It lacked the jump scares of modern first person horror games (PT included), but I still remember feeling the dread just from things like this:
It felt more scary than the rest of the game because most of the other levels couldn't keep up with the previous games. No flashlight and they were simply too bright/not fucked up enough.
However, I agree that it should not be used throughout the game. The use in small closed areas like PT would be the best IMO. While exploring the open world town in third person. There are different things you can do best in both perspectives. Sometimes you need to see what is happening to your character to induce terror like in a horror movie.
Lord Malachite
Member
As someone who really liked the way the city environment worked in Downpour, I'd like to see a return to that style of the town's presentation. The FOX Engine could really do a good job of bringing the town to life, and I think you'd lose a lot of that with first person there. I think if whole, indoor environments could be explored in a well-exectued first-person perspective, that could work rather well. Personally I'd like to see mechanics like hiding or luring enemies into traps in an FPS environment instead of it just being generic combat.
There's never really been a SH game I outright disliked. Certainly Team Silent's creations stand above the later ones by Climax, Double Helix, and Vatra, but even those I found a decent amount of enjoyment with, Every one of the non-Team Silent games left an impression on me. I know it's unpopular to not have a "purist" opinion on the series, and I certainly wouldn't recommend one of the later games to someone over the originals, but I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand either. Each one was an experience I didn't regret.
*Prepares for epic flames*
I still have an optimistic view about the series future and I think Kojima will bring something new to the table for it. 2016 feels like the right release time, it gives us proper time to digest The Phantom Pain, after all.
There's never really been a SH game I outright disliked. Certainly Team Silent's creations stand above the later ones by Climax, Double Helix, and Vatra, but even those I found a decent amount of enjoyment with, Every one of the non-Team Silent games left an impression on me. I know it's unpopular to not have a "purist" opinion on the series, and I certainly wouldn't recommend one of the later games to someone over the originals, but I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand either. Each one was an experience I didn't regret.
*Prepares for epic flames*
I still have an optimistic view about the series future and I think Kojima will bring something new to the table for it. 2016 feels like the right release time, it gives us proper time to digest The Phantom Pain, after all.
PetriP-TNT
Member
For the people who are suggesting "first person when something interesting happens" I just have to say that that's a goddamn awful idea for a horror game. Ruins the whole shock value after the first encounter, kinda how the Wii Silent Hill did.
In Silent Hill 4 first person worked in the apartment, because they threw many twists between every level (and even during the levels) but it required the closed space kinda, so I don't know how well it work if every indoor location was first person and every outdoor location would be third person.
Maybe why not both.jpg but if it could choose it would be tank controls and fixed camera angles aww yiss
This has been done so many times lately that I think it might be it's own Horror genre, like generic non generic combat. I hate hiding mechanics. Oh yeah and escape mechanics, I hate those too. Except with a certain part in Silent Hill 2.
I was watching a Resident Evil 1 Game Informer replay today for a while and it once again amazed me how pure the combat was. No unnecessary bullshit at all. Load a weapon, dodge, turn around and shoot a zombie to the head. Or the knee or body if you don't want to take the chance. Silent Hill expanded this amazing concept by adding the factor of arguably better melee combat and by adding the "every guy can't shoot" mechanic. Now there's some AAAA game design.
In Silent Hill 4 first person worked in the apartment, because they threw many twists between every level (and even during the levels) but it required the closed space kinda, so I don't know how well it work if every indoor location was first person and every outdoor location would be third person.
Maybe why not both.jpg but if it could choose it would be tank controls and fixed camera angles aww yiss
This has been done so many times lately that I think it might be it's own Horror genre, like generic non generic combat. I hate hiding mechanics. Oh yeah and escape mechanics, I hate those too. Except with a certain part in Silent Hill 2.
I was watching a Resident Evil 1 Game Informer replay today for a while and it once again amazed me how pure the combat was. No unnecessary bullshit at all. Load a weapon, dodge, turn around and shoot a zombie to the head. Or the knee or body if you don't want to take the chance. Silent Hill expanded this amazing concept by adding the factor of arguably better melee combat and by adding the "every guy can't shoot" mechanic. Now there's some AAAA game design.
Thats what id like as well. People are too attached to the 3rd person idea cause thats the perspective of the classic. But people, remember Metroid Prime! Making it permanent 1st person might be for the best. ;-)
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Best part of the Room area in Silent Hill 4, I do miss the camera views though.I just like the changes of the apartment, really. First it was more like welcoming pause from the actual levels, but even early on it felt creepy and claustrophobic.
Later on it just gets fucked up and becomes a hazard in itself.
It lacked the jump scares of modern first person horror games (PT included), but I still remember feeling the dread just from things like this:
It felt more scary than the rest of the game because most of the other levels couldn't keep up with the previous games. No flashlight and they were simply too bright/not fucked up enough.
However, I agree that it should not be used throughout the game. The use in small closed areas like PT would be the best IMO. While exploring the open world town in third person. There are different things you can do best in both perspectives. Sometimes you need to see what is happening to your character to induce terror like in a horror movie.
Going into a room and having a awkward camera view did make me think, ok what's gonna happen here then, it introduced fear and sometimes it was nothing.
One thing I do think they should bring back is the world transformation from homecoming/the film.