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Why has Sega managed their IPs so badly?

Krejlooc

Banned
I think it's ridiculous how BomberGames wasn't taken into the fold after Streets Of Rage Remake was completed, like how SEGA employed Christian Whitehead for his Sonic CD/1/2 improved remakes.

I got their team in contact with sega just about 2 years ago, actually. Their programmer had moved on by that point and didn't want to deal with Sega.

And, because it's already being discussed - Sega shut down Streets of Rage remake because they started taking donations for the thing. Making money off of sega's IP is where they draw the line.
 
SEGA should have sold each studio of to different developers. Imagine if Smilebit had been a staple under Nintendo or Capcom! It's absolutely dumb how things went down. What did Sammy even got out of it?
 

Rezae

Member
You could say the same for a lot of companies these days. A lot of consolidating and focusing on what are sure things.

For Sega in particular, I don't know what the heck their philosophy is on Sonic these days. Maybe the problem is they have no idea. I'm beyond enraged with their lack of localization of many awesome titles too.

They did throw us a bone with Valkyrie Chronicles on PC, and overall I think we'll see good things from them on the PC front going forward (at least I am hoping). They have such a diverse line-up I don't see how they sit on so many IPs, even if they're just HD collections or similar.

In todays environment though, a lot of companies aren't touching 5 year old IPs anymore that don't promise a good return. It's naive to think that many of the massive amount of IPs Sega has had over the years are really anything more than an item on a fanboys wishlist these days. A lot of their IPs are old news at this point, sadly.
 

sibarraz

Banned
It's kind of a shame their entire Dreamcast lineup didn't show up in some form on XBLA / PSN. The dreamcast had an online action RPG lootfest and musical instrument game before they became fads...yet the franchises nearly vanished when the genres gained momentum. Add to the fact that so many of the DC games play like quick and fun arcade titles, like Zombie Revenge, that it's almost silly for them to not make an appearance as budget digital titles.

The worst is playing Sega Superstar Tennis and being reminded of how charming the characters and franchises were. Oh well, at least we got one more Samba De Amigo in the form of a Wii title where the wiimotes registered movement worse than the PS2 Eyetoy port.

uJH2xSs.gif


I dont care for a:cm, the real fuck you from gearbox to sega was making a shitty samba de amigo game :(
 
I think Sega's main problem is that a lot of their old talent is gone or barely does anything anymore. Yu Suzuki's made a bunch of mobile games. Yuji Naka has Prope. Reiko Kodama hasn't made anything since 7th Dragon. Noriyoshi Ouba left. Yukio Futatsugi left. Sega either needs new talent or to bring back/contract their old talent to figure out what made them great to begin with.
That said, they have plenty of new talent not incapable of greatness. It's more that I can't recall their names, which might change in the future or when I start paying more attention to smaller company projects that show individuality. Part of the issue comes with video game historians, amateur and professional, focusing on the good 'ol days a bit fiercely.

And, because it's already being discussed - Sega shut down Streets of Rage remake because they started taking donations for the thing. Making money off of sega's IP is where they draw the line.
Yeah, SEGA was in bounds to make that decision.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
I would take any of those.

I think Sega's main problem is that a lot of their old talent is gone or barely does anything anymore. Yu Suzuki's made a bunch of mobile games. Yuji Naka has Prope. Reiko Kodama hasn't made anything since 7th Dragon. Noriyoshi Ouba left. Yukio Futatsugi left. Sega either needs new talent or to bring back/contract their old talent to figure out what made them great to begin with.

Sega still has old guard talent. Most of the Skies of Arcadia team is still at Sega, for example, they're under global R&D2. AM2 still exists. people seem to have turned a blind eye to probably Sega's most consistently great team for several generations - currently Team Yakuza formerly Team Shinobi. They also have some key western talent, namely Creative Assembly and Relic, and now they have Atlus in the fold.
 

Neff

Member
This, sadly.

Not really the same company. Not the same talent.

Today's market is the biggest difference. If people still wanted games like Shinobi, Shenmue, Daytona etc, we'd still be getting them, and Sega would find the talent necessary to do justice to those franchises.

It's consumers who are no longer interested in these IPs who are to blame, not Sega.
 
Seriously, some folks on GAF can't get into Jet Set Radio, which in my book is a classic SEGA arcade game for console. And few people can agree on how to market into NiGHTS Into Dreams—I'm not sure calling it something like an "arcade" or "score-attack" game fully describes the game or sets up expectations. It's a damn shame Daytona USA HD and Shinobi 3DS didn't perform the way they should have.
 
Sega still has old guard talent. Most of the Skies of Arcadia team is still at Sega, for example, they're under global R&D2. AM2 still exists. people seem to have turned a blind eye to probably Sega's most consistently great team for several generations - currently Team Yakuza formerly Team Shinobi. They also have some key western talent, namely Creative Assembly and Relic, and now they have Atlus in the fold.

Thank god/Suzuki for Toshihiro Nagoshi. He's the best thing Sega has IMO. I don't follow Sega's western stuff so I can't really say much about Creative Assembly or Relic.

My point is that Sega probably can't manage their old IPs well because the people who created them aren't that involved anymore.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
For Sega in particular, I don't know what the heck their philosophy is on Sonic these days.

Pretty simple, they are following the same development curve that other annualized series like Call of Duty uses - they're rotating teams on a 2-3 year dev cycle to produce games to fill a yearly void. I don't understand how people can comprehend the difference between Treyarch, Infinity Ward, etc, but can't distinguish between the developers of the Sonic series. They have their main team, the titular Sonic Team, which resides in Japan, which makes games like Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Generations and assisted with Sonic Colors. Then you have the Storybook team, which makes games like Sonic & The Black Knight and Sonic Lost World. They've been using 3rd parties to fill their void for a 3rd team, previously Sumo Digital, currently Big Red Button.

This year was Big Red Button's turn. Last year was the Storybook team's turn. Next year is Sonic Team's turn. I would put money down on a sequel to Sonic Transformed arriving in 2 years. The secret to following Sonic games? Only pay attention to Sonic Team and Sumo Digital. Their last 3 games have followed a very definite design philosophy.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
My point is that Sega probably can't manage their old IPs well because the people who created them aren't that involved anymore.

They handle their legacy IPs well whenever they do come through, I'd argue. Their recent sega heritage ports are outstanding, and their treatment of the classic Sonic games with Taxman and Stealth's input is really good. You look at when they do revisit old IPs and we get stuff like House of the Dead Overkill (Typing!) or Afterburner Climax and see that the new guard is mindful of their history.

The gold standard is Fantasy Zone. Sega's original mascot has a pristine history, with the most recent game, Fantasy Zone II DX, being the very best Sega game that nobody played. It was terrific.
 

gelf

Member
The SEGA you miss doesn't exist because arcades died out in the West and have consolidated around big franchises (fighting games and redemption) in Japan. All of these promising little IPs came out as one-offs for making big arcade money; trying to retool Gain Ground or a Coreland game for today could be time-consuming, aka salary-consuming.

Re: gambling, the Sammy end of Sega-Sammy's been running pachinko parlors for ages. Now that the domestic government wants to promote casino development and traditional gambling, Sammy's in a bit of a rut.

The Sega I miss didn't just just make Arcade games though. Panzer Dragoon, Jet Set Radio, Shenmue etc werent out in arcades. Not that some of what you say doesn't apply to reinventing those either.

My point is the Sega I miss didn't tend to rest on one IP for long. They would make a Jet Set Radio when they could have been looking to the past and making say a Shinobi game.
 

s_mirage

Member
I would take any of those.

I think Sega's main problem is that a lot of their old talent is gone or barely does anything anymore. Yu Suzuki's made a bunch of mobile games.

Isn't Yu Suzuki's position a classic case of crap, but traditional, Japanese management style? i.e. He was blamed for a high profile failure (Shenmue) and then pretty much given nothing of import to do, despite being one of the most influential and trend setting developers in history.
 

Synth

Member
That deal Sega cut with MS in 2002 to make a dozen OG Xbox exclusive games single handedly killed half a dozen IPs.

Let's be honest here, it's not like the IPs that went to other consoles (including the ridiculously dominant PS2) fared a whole lot better.

Ecco the Dolphin?
Space Channel 5?
Billy Hatcher?
Shinobi?
Thunder Force?

Now sure it would have been better if all the games had released everywhere (or at the very least, if all of them had hit the PS2 as well), but I don't think it would have made a long-term difference for pretty much anything other than maybe Shenmue.

Today's market is the biggest difference. If people still wanted games like Shinobi, Shenmue, Daytona etc, we'd still be getting them, and Sega would find the talent necessary to do justice to those franchises.

It's consumers who are no longer interested in these IPs who are to blame, not Sega.

This is the real issue. People like to bring up Nintendo as an example, but they simply don't understand the differences in the games each made.

Sega's basically a Nintendo with a million Star Foxes and F-Zeros. Great games, but good luck selling a high budget version of them today, without destroying what made the IP special in the first place.

The Sega I miss didn't just just make Arcade games though. Panzer Dragoon, Jet Set Radio, Shenmue etc werent out in arcades. Not that some of what you say doesn't apply to reinventing those either.

My point is the Sega I miss didn't tend to rest on one IP for long. They would make a Jet Set Radio when they could have been looking to the past and making say a Shinobi game.

Classic Sega didn't make just arcade games. However in most cases even their home console games were heavily influenced by arcade game principles. Sonic games are almost as much an arcade game as they are a Mario style platformer. The only Mario games I'd really compare on a design level is the original Super Mario Bros, and SMB2. All Mario games from that point onwards have made clear design choices to make the games more accessible to a wider audience, usually by adding extremely powerful items that serve to 'upgrade' Mario for those wanting less of a challenge (storeable Tanooki suits being the ultimate example). Now contrast something like Panzer Dragoon with After Burner. How much difference in the design principles is there really? Would Panzer Dragoon really look out of place in an arcade? Controls aside, how different are the principles behind Jet Set Radio (not the shit sequel btw, lol) and an actual arcade game like Crazy Taxi?

Sega was mostly making arcade games for a home audience, so many of the IPs suffered for the same reasons.
 
Yeah, I remember they having been doing pretty well for themselves throughout the ups and downs. I think the OP is blinded by nostalgia at this point.

Yes, Sonic is an IP of extremes. Ranging from good to bad. This has ALWAYS been the case with the IP though. Nothing new.

Yakuza games "get milked" because they sell very well in a country where console games don't generally sell well. They no longer make money in the West, so Sega doesn't bring them over. Get over it.

PSO2 is a head scratcher, but I honestly wonder how much of a success the game would be in the West at this point. Would it justify the backend costs? I can only assume this is why it is not here yet.

Valkyria Chronicles moving to PSP was not surprising. The PSP was a massive success in Japan, more so than the PS3 was/is. Almost 20 million units of hardware. We got the sequel in the US. No one bought it. Sega sees that, says Fuck you and stops it. Can't fault them. VC getting another chance on PC IS A MIRACLE at this point.

Shinobi is dead because people stopped caring.

Super Monkey Ball is dead because Sega ran it into the ground and people stopped caring.

You say Sega lacks vision? How about Alpha Protocol? How about funding all of those Platinum Games games? Bayonetta? Vanquish? MadWorld? Hello? How about bringing over all of those awesome 3DS Classics? Good stuff there. They just released Alien Isolation!

Yakuza IP - Still good.
Binary Domain - Fun, overlooked title that got new life on PC.
Sonic IP - Up and down as always.
Hatsune Miku IP - Great quality games
Total War IP - Still awesome.
Football Manager IP - Awesome and sells quite well.
Company of Heroes IP - Doing well.
Warhammer: Dawn of War IP - Great games.
Valkyria Chronicles - Revived on PC.
Platinum Games - They funded FIVE Platinum Games. FIVE!
Aliens IP - Alien vs. Predator? Good. Colonial Marines? Bad. (Fuck you Gearbox) Isolation? Great. Alien Infestation? Awesome.

There are ups and downs but I think Sega is going just fine thank you very much. They have found their successes on various platforms where other JP publishers have not. Just because you aren't getting all of the JP developed goodness anymore doesn't mean Sega isn't doing well. It means that the JP developed goodness...may not sell very well anymore. Time to realize that.

Yakuza had its chance. Valkyria got another chance. PSO2 may be too expensive. Hatsune Miku games are selling enough to continue being released in the West. Their PC games are doing well. They support indies.

Take off the nostalgia glasses and take a look.

While I disagree with the last line and the Sonic series always varying in quality, I agree with everything else. Sega has, quite frankly, been very good over the years. They've fleshed out in the PC sphere very well as they've handled IP's such as Company of Heroes, Warhammer, and Alien (outside of the abortion that was Colonial Marines) very well.

With their Japanese segment they have done a reasonable job at porting their old games to other platforms, especially PC. Their Dreamcast packs are of good value. There was also the fantastic port that was Sega All-Stars Racing Transformed. They have also given previously dead franchises a new chance with surprising success such as with Typing of the Dead and Valkyria Chronicles. And of course who can forget them supporting Platinium Games for FIVE straight releases.

You can pout about games like Yakuza, but the reality is that Sega gave that series 3 chances and it failed every single time. You might as well rag on them no longer publishing Platinum Games games or turning away from Nintendo home consoles after their support for the Wii.

I understand that Sega was once the king of publishers, and I can see the frustration However people need to let it go. Sega collapsed for a reason and it was because they created unique non-budget games like Shenmue, Jet Set Radio, and Seaman, while pushing an arcade gaming agenda . While these games made many people happy, they were hardly profitable. Sega died in the console market because instead of chasing what made sense to do in the console market, they went in their own direction. This is good up to a point, however you need a steady stream of profit. And this has been Sega's fundamental problem since the mid-90s. It seems that after two decades they finally are starting to carve out a business model that involves both quality and profitability and they aren't going to risk that by putting manpower to publish and/or develop non-profitable games.
 
The gold standard is Fantasy Zone. Sega's original mascot has a pristine history, with the most recent game, Fantasy Zone II DX, being the very best Sega game that nobody played. It was terrific.
Well, I'm not going to praise The Maze anytime soon, but even that wasn't a bad spin-off. Fantasy Zone's evidence that SEGA can also make challenging, unique shooting games that still hold up.

Re: Yakuza, has there been a licensed PC port of any of the games, like in China or Korea? Yakuza may not do well on consoles, but the effort required for Little Stone to port the PS2 games to PC with the inexpensive English dub, performance testing, and expanded audiovisual options should be relatively minimal. Worth one more try with a different market, SEGA?
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
What do you mean? Classic Sega franchises like Football Manager and Total War are doing great.
 
and on occasion, their customers let them down.

You can't say Sega didn't try at all this last gen, they bankrolled ALL of Platinum's games for years, none of them were significant hits (no major bombs either, but hey). The Club tanked, despite being awesome, Condemned was never a hit. Rhythm Thief for the 3DS was another great game (from Sega internal) that didn't find an audience. Sonic Colors is arguably the best modern chapter of the series and was amongst the least selling. Binary Domain is another effing awesome game of theirs that tanked.

They did put out quality, rather often it wasn't rewarded.
 

IrishNinja

Member
eh not that i disagree with OP's thesis statement, but
- this booty sonic game was farmed out, really hoping the next is up to colors/generations/first half of lost world quality
- shinobi had a decent 3DS game
- milking yakuza isn' tthe problem, when zero looks as good as it does: the series apparently dying over here is though

again though sleeping on a cash cow like PSO 2.0 - especially during a new cycle slump? - madness

And now Sega controls Atlus.

Be afraid.

only real loss there is that they're clearly not putting that localization team to good use on their own projects, sadly

Sega lost

Sorry IrishNinja

So Sega's like the Nas of Gaming? Except less consistent?

xpwXhyb.jpg


the right side of history isn't always popular brehs
 
Game-wise, they're most European influenced now I'd say.
TThey're doing good on PC, and people talking about no support of the older franchises, did you buy any of the numerous ports laat gen? I bought nearly everyone of them aside from crazy taxi and TJ&E.
We are probably well overdue for a streets of rage revival though...
 

sörine

Banned
It's sad but I've been voting with my wallet. I bought all the Whitehead Sonics and a bunch of Dreamcast ports on my Shield as well as all the 3D Remasters and most Game Gear VC on my 3DS. Whenever I get a Steambox I'll be buying Valkyria, Generations and a ton of other stuff too I'm sure. If Sega wakes up a supports Wii U VC they can look forward to my money there as well.

people seem to have turned a blind eye to probably Sega's most consistently great team for several generations - currently Team Yakuza formerly Team Shinobi.
I was under the impression that Yakuza Team was essentially the remnants of the non-sports staff from Amusement Vision and Smilebit? Wasn't Team Shinobi really AM1?

Pretty simple, they are following the same development curve that other annualized series like Call of Duty uses - they're rotating teams on a 2-3 year dev cycle to produce games to fill a yearly void. I don't understand how people can comprehend the difference between Treyarch, Infinity Ward, etc, but can't distinguish between the developers of the Sonic series. They have their main team, the titular Sonic Team, which resides in Japan, which makes games like Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Generations and assisted with Sonic Colors. Then you have the Storybook team, which makes games like Sonic & The Black Knight and Sonic Lost World. They've been using 3rd parties to fill their void for a 3rd team, previously Sumo Digital, currently Big Red Button.

This year was Big Red Button's turn. Last year was the Storybook team's turn. Next year is Sonic Team's turn. I would put money down on a sequel to Sonic Transformed arriving in 2 years. The secret to following Sonic games? Only pay attention to Sonic Team and Sumo Digital. Their last 3 games have followed a very definite design philosophy.
I believe the Storybook team was dissolved to work on Generations with the rest of Sonic Team, but Lost World was still headed by the Colors leads. LW wasn't great but it was pretty obviously rushed I think, the game got worse the farther you got.

I'd also throw Dimps into this analysis, who have been pumping out handheld/SD/digital companion games every 1-2 years for well over a decade now.
 

Squishy3

Member
Thank god/Suzuki for Toshihiro Nagoshi. He's the best thing Sega has IMO. I don't follow Sega's western stuff so I can't really say much about Creative Assembly or Relic.

My point is that Sega probably can't manage their old IPs well because the people who created them aren't that involved anymore.
The real problem isn't that they left, it's that they were their only star designers and arguably good designers, except for the people who make Yakuza, those guys are awesome, but well, they're stuck making Yakuza for the foreseeable future.
 
I do find it puzzling what they did with Valkyria Chronicles, so I'm really glad they did a PC port, even if it is Windows only. They built a really nice engine, put out a well received game, then rather that trying to build on its success globally they cut back on their ambitions and did the PSP sequels instead. Not sure why they didn't just make them as spin offs and leave the door open for a numbered sequel.

Hopefully the success of the PC port will get them to look at it again. The last six years since the original seem like such a wasted opportunity. They had a unique IP they could have been building up.
 

ksdixon

Member
I got their team in contact with sega just about 2 years ago, actually. Their programmer had moved on by that point and didn't want to deal with Sega.

And, because it's already being discussed - Sega shut down Streets of Rage remake because they started taking donations for the thing. Making money off of sega's IP is where they draw the line.

Thanks for the extra information man, do you work at SEGA or something?

I guess I can't fault SEGA anymore if they started taking donations, but why would you work on a game for so long only to do that right at the end?
 
SEGA mismanaged their IPs since day 1. Below are all the Sonic games released from 1991 through 1996 across all platforms. That's 18 games in five years, folks - yet still failed to bring their own mascot to their flagship system (Saturn). Just crazy.

Sonic the Hedgehog
Sonic the Hedgehog 2
Sonic the Hedgehog CD
Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine
Tails Adventure
Sonic Labyrinth
Sonic the Hedgehog Spinball
Sonic the Hedgehog 3
Tails and the Music Maker
Sonic & Knuckles
Sonic Gameworld
Sonic Drift 2
Sonic Drift
Sonic Chaos
Sonic's Schoolhouse
Sonic the Hedgehog: Triple Trouble
Knuckles' Chaotix
Sonic 3D Blast
 

tokkun

Member
But those examples are not really comparable. Atlus and Tales sell well on the west, by their standards, but how many units is that? 300k? 500k? They are niche games for a hungry and loyal fanbase that grows very very slowly.

With Final Fantasy they try to appeal to a much larger demographic, every mainline FF since VII has sold over 5m+ on the west I think.

Well, the post I was responding to was premised on the idea that the mainline FF games are already failing to appeal to audiences in the west.

I think that discussion is somewhat beside the point, though, because sales of 300-500K should be fine for the scale of a lot of Sega games.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Thanks for the extra information man, do you work at SEGA or something?

Nope

I guess I can't fault SEGA anymore if they started taking donations, but why would you work on a game for so long only to do that right at the end?

They had a good reason - to cover server costs for people actually downloading the game. Still, you can't take money for a project like this. That's where pretty much any major company will draw the line.
 

ksdixon

Member
Nope



They had a good reason - to cover server costs for people actually downloading the game. Still, you can't take money for a project like this. That's where pretty much any major company will draw the line.

that seems strange. why not just send it out over torrent, or host at rapidshare or something? that's what people ended-up doing quickly afterwards when SEGA sent the C&D.
 
SEGA is still a thing? I thought they were basically like Atari and didn't actually make games anymore but just sold their name to be emblazoned on ironic, hipster t-shirts....
 

Dusk Golem

A 21st Century Rockefeller
I think another part of this that no one is mentioning is that gamers often didn't pay with their wallets, even to quality games.

Valkyria Chronicles, Binary Domain, House of the Dead Overkill, Yakuza, Alpha Protocol, their work with Platinum Games (Bayonetta, Vanquish, MadWorld, etc.), the 3DS Shinobi, Sonic Generations, Sonic Racing Transformed, and so forth, all good games, all also underperformed. There's several reasons for that, but I'd argue SEGA's doing a lot better off than many other Japanese companies at the very least, but their games don't sell outside of a few select franchises, so they did what a business would do, focus on those select franchises.
 

Arcadehero

Neo Member
Because the "Miyamotos" that Sega had are no longer with the company.

^This

If you don't have people in your company with a particular vision and a plan to make it happen, then you aren't going to do visionary things. Sega is not the only company to suffer this, Capcom, Konami, Cave and various others have amazing back catalogs that they often aren't sure what to do with and there is room for debate as to whether they have the vision to create new 'classics' of quality or will just find ways to keep particular IPs alive.

Sega still has a few people there who are trying to do some cool things but I have spoken with some who work there that find their ideas shot down by Sega Japan for whatever reason. Playing it safe and working with certain popular licenses pays the bills so that is the focus.
 
Nothing is worse than the fact that Shining Force has been abandoned. SFIII on Saturn was amazing, wish it would have continued. Or even an HD port somewhere....
 

Fox Mulder

Member
Sega had god awful management, but they were also wizards at making games the market didn't want anymore.

It still hurts that an amazing dreamcast multiplayer game in Chu Chu Rocket is stuck on mobile instead of xbla/psn, but I guess no one would buy it now.
 

virtualS

Member
I think there's more to it than simply stating that their management is trash. The reason why I say that is because it's not only Sega guilty of mismanaging their IP, it's pretty much a Japan wide issue.

And you know what? I don't really blame them.

Since the West has become the dominant market for traditional video games, almost everyone's attention has shifted to what sells big in today's market. Bar a few massive exceptions, most people want explosions while shooting people in the face. If if it hasn't got that, it sure better have characters with attitude.

Let's say Sega want to make a new Streets of Rage. Do they go big budget and inevitably lose their shirt trying to squeeze a square peg in a round hole or go small, please 100,000 nostalgic fans and still lose money?

I'd prefer the latter myself. In fact, I'd love it if Japan went back to teams of 20 producing 2D classics again. The problem is that they'd only get away with charging $15 at most and have to compete with all the new low budget indie names familiar today.
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
sörine;138883381 said:
It's sad but I've been voting with my wallet. I bought all the Whitehead Sonics and a bunch of Dreamcast ports on my Shield as well as all the 3D Remasters and most Game Gear VC on my 3DS. Whenever I get a Steambox I'll be buying Valkyria, Generations and a ton of other stuff too I'm sure. If Sega wakes up a supports Wii U VC they can look forward to my money there as well.


I was under the impression that Yakuza Team was essentially the remnants of the non-sports staff from Amusement Vision and Smilebit? Wasn't Team Shinobi really AM1?

Team Shinobi was AM7, which became Overworks, which I think is now AM Software R&D Dept. 1.

Team Yakuza is a combination of the former Amusement Vision (AM4) and Smilebit (AM6).
 
SEGA certainly did a poor job of following last gen's gaming trends, releasing SP games when gamers demanded MP and later in an effort to make up for their error released 2 MP games (Binary Domain and Anarchy Reigns) when the MP boat had sailed.

If SEGA are to make a comeback in the western console space, they need management with a finger on the pulse.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
I'm not sure Sega managed things badly so much as they didnt do what fans wish they did. Which isnt necessarily in line with reality.
 

Almighty

Member
They stopped doing things that fans loved, but were losing Sega money is how I see it. They tried a bunch of stuff last gen most of them sold like crap and then they pulled back to the ones that make money. Which from what i can tell in the West means PC and Sonic and as a PC gamer Sega is doing pretty good by me. All they really need to do in the near future to keep me happy is announce a new Warhammer 40k game from Relic.
 

Silky

Banned
Yeah, I remember they having been doing pretty well for themselves throughout the ups and downs. I think the OP is blinded by nostalgia at this point.

Yes, Sonic is an IP of extremes. Ranging from good to bad. This has ALWAYS been the case with the IP though. Nothing new.

Yakuza games "get milked" because they sell very well in a country where console games don't generally sell well. They no longer make money in the West, so Sega doesn't bring them over. Get over it.

PSO2 is a head scratcher, but I honestly wonder how much of a success the game would be in the West at this point. Would it justify the backend costs? I can only assume this is why it is not here yet.

Valkyria Chronicles moving to PSP was not surprising. The PSP was a massive success in Japan, more so than the PS3 was/is. Almost 20 million units of hardware. We got the sequel in the US. No one bought it. Sega sees that, says Fuck you and stops it. Can't fault them. VC getting another chance on PC IS A MIRACLE at this point.

Shinobi is dead because people stopped caring.

Super Monkey Ball is dead because Sega ran it into the ground and people stopped caring.

You say Sega lacks vision? How about Alpha Protocol? How about funding all of those Platinum Games games? Bayonetta? Vanquish? MadWorld? Hello? How about bringing over all of those awesome 3DS Classics? Good stuff there. They just released Alien Isolation!

Yakuza IP - Still good.
Binary Domain - Fun, overlooked title that got new life on PC.
Sonic IP - Up and down as always.
Hatsune Miku IP - Great quality games
Total War IP - Still awesome.
Football Manager IP - Awesome and sells quite well.
Company of Heroes IP - Doing well.
Warhammer: Dawn of War IP - Great games.
Valkyria Chronicles - Revived on PC.
Platinum Games - They funded FIVE Platinum Games. FIVE!
Aliens IP - Alien vs. Predator? Good. Colonial Marines? Bad. (Fuck you Gearbox) Isolation? Great. Alien Infestation? Awesome.

There are ups and downs but I think Sega is going just fine thank you very much. They have found their successes on various platforms where other JP publishers have not. Just because you aren't getting all of the JP developed goodness anymore doesn't mean Sega isn't doing well. It means that the JP developed goodness...may not sell very well anymore. Time to realize that.

Yakuza had its chance. Valkyria got another chance. PSO2 may be too expensive. Hatsune Miku games are selling enough to continue being released in the West. Their PC games are doing well. They support indies.

Take off the nostalgia glasses and take a look.

I'm not sure they have (managed their IPs badly). Most of those IPs were smaller, quirkier IPs that naturally became outmoded when market expectations moved up. I think Sega probably could do a better job of seeking out digital or non-traditional opportunities for their games (notably, the fact that the XBLA/PSN peak passed by without Monkey Ball or Chu Chu Rocket is kind of shocking to me) but there's no scenario where "better management" would have lead to Shinobi being a competitive full price game in 2014. Sunsetting an IP that is no longer viable is a good business decision.

In Sega's case, they haven't been able to do much to replace their sunsetted stuff, but that's OK too. They've remade themselves as a leaner company driven by catalogue sales, with fewer marquee hits.

One fundamental problem for Japanese publishers is the overall divergence of taste between Japan and ROW over the last few years. Which means if you're a Japanese publisher and you get, say, 75% of your income from Japan, it's very tough. Because Japan is a shrinking slice of the overall pie, but a) you're better at selling in Japan, b) your designers are more attuned to Japanese tastes, and c) the alternative of pursuing western tastes risks alienating the Japanese audience, which you're not prepared to do. I think this is a structural constraint that has impacted most, maybe even all Japanese publishers.

Another example of this is Square Enix wrt Final Fantasy 13. One might argue that "better management" would have led to Final Fantasy 13 being a best-of-breed world-renowned acclaim game. Instead the conventional wisdom is that the brand is tarnished, reduced to somewhat of a ho-hum thing. But the challenge is that much of what people complained about over here--the characters, the script, the dull worldbuilding, the endless linearity--may have been received differently in Japan (and we know SE feels the characters were well-received over there!). So if you're SE, you don't want to make a western-targeted product because you still make a lot of your bank in Japan, but making a Japanese-targeted product gets you increasing flak over here.

The result is a bifurcated company, where the "Eidos" ("Square Enix London" or whatever they're calling it now) side of the company makes games for western audiences (any Japanese sales are just gravy), and the "Square Enix" side makes games for Japanese audiences (with western sales being significant, but not controlling to their design decisions).

The bifurcation is even more apparent in mobile tastes. The stuff that's driving Japanese mobile success is NOT the stuff that's driving western mobile success. Another challenge for a Japanese publisher.

Sonic's brand management is also a torn-between-two-worlds problem. There's a significant audience of 8-12 year olds who want a hip, badass, quippy type Sonic. This is clearly the audience that drove the Sonic Boom reboot. Now, obviously the game is poorly made, it has problems, it's iffy. Personally I find the designs repulsive and I really hate everything I've just described. But that's a very valid audience to chase. That audience, incidentally, also drives the merchandise business which for Sonic I think is pretty significant. By contrast, there's also a significant audience of older people who remember old Sonic games and want to have classic platforming action. But products that go for one audience alienate the other, and it's not clear Sonic is viable without both. Making matters worse, the IP has been dead in Japan since the early-00s. So there's a disconnect between the development team and the global sales patterns.

Might I recommend you PM Nirolak and tell him to reply to this thread? He's very good at talking through this kind of stuff and thinking about macro-level industry threads and I doubt he'd click if no one called his attention to it.

Actually it's quite the opposite.

It's hard to believe sometimes, but Sega are really big supporters of the PC as a platform. They currently own 2 of the few remaining RTS franchises and are actively supporting them (Company of Heroes, Total War), and their PC ports tend to be competent (Sonic Allstars Racing Transformed, Valkyria Chronicles).

Where the angry Sega salt comes in is when I look through their back log of franchises and go "Where the fuck did these all go?" I'm basically saying I desperately want PSO Nova, Yakuza, and Valkyria Chronicles 3 to all release in the West.

With that said, the issue here isn't with Sega America or Sega Europe. It's Sega Japan that's fucking crazy.

all that needs to be said.

The Genesis classics dump all over that turd.

Can you explain at least why you feel it's a bad Shinobi game?
 

Jobbs

Banned
be grateful we got the amazing Alien Isolation.

I know that's not a Sega IP exactly, but at leas they did SOMETHING awesome.
 
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