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White girl attacked for getting box braids

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She looks adorable. I can understand how it can be offensive or insensitive in a certain context. But in her case, it seems completely innocent and non-political.
 

Five

Banned
So when people say something like "I'm colorblind", I hope you understand that it is genuinely deeply offensive. Because of course a black person is likely to see themselves as different. How could they not? Every inch of society is telling them they are different... and worse, TREATING them like they are different. In the media. In their games. In their books. In their TV. In the institutions. In the prison system.

Until this changes, "colorblindness" is not an actual possibility.

Except for the "colorblind" people, right?

edit: You can't ask people to change their views and then chastise them for doing so.
 
I"m fully understanding of all you've said and are saying.

I just don't feel it applies here in this case. Why can't this girl wearing box braids be seen as a celebration of black culture? Which is technically what it is if you believe her "I saw it and liked it so I wantwed to copy it" story?

Why does it always have ot be glass half empty when it comes to perceived racism? It's not she wore a Klan hood to halloween, it's not like she shaved n***er into her head, it's not like she went blackface.

She emulated a hairstyle she loved. It's that simple. I understand the unfortunate societal restrictions placed on minorities in the world (not just the US, we have an arguably worse scenario with Aboriginal folk in Australia), but I just don't view the outrage in this particular instance justified at all.

Aboriginal people in Australia don't get upset when non-Aboriginals try to celebrate their culture.

because 99% of the time, despite all of the work to fill the glass, the glass is being emptied, smashed, tipped over, the water supply is cut, etc... that's why. constantly dehydrated people are more cautious of who fucks with their water.
 

Danchi

Member
I"m fully understanding of all you've said and are saying.

I just don't feel it applies here in this case.

No-one (who isn't just joining the thread anyway) is talking about the girl anymore:

And again, I'm not talking about the little girl anymore, she can shave her head for all I care. I'm speaking WHY people complain about cultural appropriation. The answer while obvious to me is apparently lost on many people in this thread, as they write about these fictious utopias in which all groups are treated equal and complaining about cultural appropriation is stupid.

The MAIN reason any group ever complains about culture appropriation is because that group feels oppressed. If people want minority groups to stop crying about cultural appropriation the answer is simple. Stop being complacent on how America treats minority groups. If said groups were treated nearly as well as so many people's utopic visions...I doubt this thread would even exist.

The little girl did nothing wrong, the argument of hair being exclusive to one group is dumb. Now divorcing ourselves from this little girl, I'm going to explain to people why some people draw issues with something as insignificant as hairstyles. In America the metric standard of beauty has and still is straight luscious hair. It's the standard that all women are measured at. This is doubly damining toward black females as straight hair is not the natural state of black female hair. The various methods to achieve said hair is scarring and expensive. Every day that idea is reinforced to black women by TV, Music, movies, photos and all other avenues. They're often told their natural hair is "ugly and unkempt", "nappy headed" and that they would look better if they straightened it.

Many black women started embracing hair styles more suitable to their hair, and again are greeted with the same negative attitudes towards it. And for just as long as these women have been ridiculed for their hairstyles; magazines and other avenues pour on accolades when the fairer skinned females do the same thing (Bo Derek as an exampled was lauded for it and many found the style refreshing and new, despite the fact at the same time many establishments and news/media were flat out calling black women who had this hairstyle "ghetto" or "unattractive". Or a better example would be Kylie Jenner or whatever her name is when she rocked half braids or whatever and Vogue or whoever stated it was "brand new, bold, and innovative hair style" rightfully black people, females especially were upset with the statements and the magazine and much less Kylie, in fact most people gave two fucks about Kylie herself and drew issue with the magazine perpetuating the idea that white is right and black is wack.

Or a better example check out that NeoGAF thread on Lupita's hair style, many suggesting she grow it out and straigten it, and many more saying she looks like a boy and her hairstyle is ugly. That is what black women face, that is what America says to black women and their natural hair. Or check the NeoGAF thread about the young African American girl who was expelled from her school for keeping her hair natural and the school telling her to straighten it.

The issue shouldn't be with this little girl, the issue should be and is with how American media views the two groups when they do the same thing and the effect it has on members of each group in how they perceive themselves and how they perceive themselves relative to the other group. Much like you and others don't want people judging this little girl for simply doing box braids, the same needs to be applied to these twitter users. They're not representatives of black culture, yet too many people in here are making damning statements about the culture because of what a few bumfucks stated on NeoGAF and that irony is lost on these posters.

Or to make it relatable to anyone with a drop of empathy. Imagine have two sons/daughters; and they both do the same thing. You constantly praise one for it and insult/demean the other for doing the same thing...what is the expected outcome? How do you think it'll affect how they view not only his/herself and you but also the sibling who has done absolutely nothing wrong. Then you have the mother who doesn't care that this is happening. Obviously in my analogy the sibling in question would most likely realize that father is an asshole and would probably try to shine light on their sibling. This too is done in our society you see those people all the time throughout history, whites who rallied with MLK and did the million man march, those who take part in the #BlackLivesMatter movement. You also have the equivalents of mothers in our society, you know these as the "I don't see race" or "It's not happening to me so who cares" type people. And much like in society, mom and dad's voice and influence is so much more powerful than your siblings and will mark you much more deeply.

At this point, most of us aren't talking about the little girl anymore and we're now talking about American society at large (tends to happen with these threads). We've already had a number of people with the usual "Cultural appropriation is stupid because here is my utopia dream of how we treat each other in the US". and other such nonsense that really should be dismissed but we can't help but respond to such nonsense.

Again, divorce yourself from the little girl because it's no longer about her. I'm no longer talking about her, she is an anchor to none of my posts anymore. She doesn't speak for America at large much like any one black person doesn't speak for African Americans at large.

The girl can do with what she wants with her hair, no one should draw issue with that. People should redirect their anger to the massive cog that is American news, media, employment and how they they view and treat the different groups of people when they do the same thing. It is because of that different treatment that we have the cries of cultural appropriation.

A few posters have made the suggestion that blacks are segregating themselves and that they should be trying to assimilate and this is the best way...these people (bless their hearts) clearly speak from a place of either privilege (trigger word!) or ignorance (double trigger!). Black people have been trying to "assimilate" since they were brought here. Blacks are simply responding to the segregation being afflicted upon them, in order for blacks to segregate themselves you have to put forward the argument that segregation has ended....it really hasn't. Segregation ends when racism ends and racism in this country is far from over.

It was called white flight not black flight, black people have been trying to assimilate for fucking ages, too bad the majority group by large doesn't want said assimilation and passes law after law to disenfranchise, imprison and generally keep blacks in a fucked state out of hatred, fear and stupidity, and what's worse is that so many Americans are completely fine with it, and others even blame black people saying things like "earn it first". Black people have "earned" equality 600x over.

I went on a craaaazy bit of tagents but meh.

TL;DR - No one is talking about the little girl at this point, divorce yourself from her.
 
She looks adorable. I can understand how it can be offensive or insensitive in a certain context. But in her case, it seems completely innocent and non-political.

Which is why it's unfortunate and unacceptable that she's being targeted for it.

However, there's a very real conversation to be had about this issue. She's basically what amounts to an innocent bystander, and that sucks.
 
"Colorblind" lmfao. People saying they're "colorblind" is just a convenient way for them to continue to be ignorant about race issues.

Also, I am white. So please spare me the "YOU'RE BEING RACIST AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE!!!1" hyperbole, because you can't be racist towards white people.

Do not quote me the dictionary definition of racism either I stg.

The sad thing is, now I'm in a catch 22 situation where I can't say jack because I used a bad choice a words. It's all 'privileged' this or 'cultural appropriation' that.

People are too damn keen to shove people into groups, and that's half the problem we have going on today. The idea that one could look at another and see a person rather then a group is so alien that it must be privileged, and not, you know, the result of a proper upbringing.

My mother dealt with this crap more then you can possibly believe, and she raised us not to do such things. Hell, she refuses to talk to grandma anymore because of her actions towards her kids growing up.

So no, it's not 'privilege' it's the result of someone who went though this growing up and wanted to make sure her children wouldn't be the sort to do that to others.
 
"Colorblind" lmfao. People saying they're "colorblind" is just a convenient way for them to continue to be ignorant about race issues.

Also, I am white. So please spare me the "YOU'RE BEING RACIST AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE!!!1" hyperbole, because you can't be racist towards white people.

Do not quote me the dictionary definition of racism either I stg.

So the tweets the OP are not being racist?

I mean, ordinarily I don't throw up arms when people say you can't be racist to white people due to their perceived intent, but if you're being 100% serious I think that's a bit ridiculous given what started this conversation.
 

Amir0x

Banned
I"m fully understanding of all you've said and are saying.

I just don't feel it applies here in this case. Why can't this girl wearing box braids be seen as a celebration of black culture? Which is technically what it is if you believe her "I saw it and liked it so I wantwed to copy it" story?

Why does it always have ot be glass half empty when it comes to perceived racism? It's not she wore a Klan hood to halloween, it's not like she shaved n***er into her head, it's not like she went blackface.

She emulated a hairstyle she loved. It's that simple. I understand the unfortunate societal restrictions placed on minorities in the world (not just the US, we have an arguably worse scenario with Aboriginal folk in Australia), but I just don't view the outrage in this particular instance justified at all.

Aboriginal people in Australia don't get upset when non-Aboriginals try to celebrate their culture.

My argument is not really about cultural appropriation, but colorblindness.

However on the subject of cultural appropriation, my argument here is not "this is wrong" or "this is right." It's "we have to understand where the sensitivity comes from, and why minorities react the way they do about stuff like this."

If we want to stop seeing reactions like this, we have to fix the problems society has which naturally makes different cultures more sensitive to issues like this.

Except for the "colorblind" people, right?

Not even. Because by definition a person saying they can be colorblind is in of itself a way of disregarding the fact that a minority cannot genuinely be so in almost every case due to the way society around them works. So when these people say they're "colorblind", it's actually yet another way of diminishing the hardships that exist whether someone wants to "not see race" or not.

How can a black person not see race when they have to literally fear that they will be shot by police or incarcerated at a rate six times higher than white folk and with 20% longer sentences than comparable whites with similar criminal backgrounds? How can they not see race when a Black individual with a college degree is about as likely to get a job as a white high school dropout?

Abe Bly said:
edit: You can't ask people to change their views and then chastise them for doing so.

Nobody did that that I can see.
 

andthebeatgoeson

Junior Member
And again, I'm not talking about the little girl anymore, she can shave her head for all I care. I'm speaking WHY people complain about cultural appropriation. The answer while obvious to me is apparently lost on many people in this thread, as they write about these fictious utopias in which all groups are treated equal and complaining about cultural appropriation is stupid.

The MAIN reason any group ever complains about culture appropriation is because that group feels oppressed. If people want minority groups to stop crying about cultural appropriation the answer is simple. Stop being complacent on how America treats minority groups. If said groups were treated nearly as well as so many people's utopic visions...I doubt this thread would even exist.

The little girl did nothing wrong, the argument of hair being exclusive to one group is dumb. Now divorcing ourselves from this little girl, I'm going to explain to people why some people draw issues with something as insignificant as hairstyles. In America the metric standard of beauty has and still is straight luscious hair. It's the standard that all women are measured at. This is doubly damining toward black females as straight hair is not the natural state of black female hair. The various methods to achieve said hair is scarring and expensive. Every day that idea is reinforced to black women by TV, Music, movies, photos and all other avenues. They're often told their natural hair is "ugly and unkempt", "nappy headed" and that they would look better if they straightened it.

Many black women started embracing hair styles more suitable to their hair, and again are greeted with the same negative attitudes towards it. And for just as long as these women have been ridiculed for their hairstyles; magazines and other avenues pour on accolades when the fairer skinned females do the same thing (Bo Derek as an exampled was lauded for it and many found the style refreshing and new, despite the fact at the same time many establishments and news/media were flat out calling black women who had this hairstyle "ghetto" or "unattractive". Or a better example would be Kylie Jenner or whatever her name is when she rocked half braids or whatever and Vogue or whoever stated it was "brand new, bold, and innovative hair style" rightfully black people, females especially were upset with the statements and the magazine and much less Kylie, in fact most people gave two fucks about Kylie herself and drew issue with the magazine perpetuating the idea that white is right and black is wack.

Or a better example check out that NeoGAF thread on Lupita's hair style, many suggesting she grow it out and straigten it, and many more saying she looks like a boy and her hairstyle is ugly. That is what black women face, that is what America says to black women and their natural hair. Or check the NeoGAF thread about the young African American girl who was expelled from her school for keeping her hair natural and the school telling her to straighten it.

The issue shouldn't be with this little girl, the issue should be and is with how American media views the two groups when they do the same thing and the effect it has on members of each group in how they perceive themselves and how they perceive themselves relative to the other group. Much like you and others don't want people judging this little girl for simply doing box braids, the same needs to be applied to these twitter users. They're not representatives of black culture, yet too many people in here are making damning statements about the culture because of what a few bumfucks stated on NeoGAF and that irony is lost on these posters.

Or to make it relatable to anyone with a drop of empathy. Imagine have two sons/daughters; and they both do the same thing. You constantly praise one for it and insult/demean the other for doing the same thing...what is the expected outcome? How do you think it'll affect how they view not only his/herself and you but also the sibling who has done absolutely nothing wrong. Then you have the mother who doesn't care that this is happening. Obviously in my analogy the sibling in question would most likely realize that father is an asshole and would probably try to shine light on their sibling. This too is done in our society you see those people all the time throughout history, whites who rallied with MLK and did the million man march, those who take part in the #BlackLivesMatter movement. You also have the equivalents of mothers in our society, you know these as the "I don't see race" or "It's not happening to me so who cares" type people. And much like in society, mom and dad's voice and influence is so much more powerful than your siblings and will mark you much more deeply.

At this point, most of us aren't talking about the little girl anymore and we're now talking about American society at large (tends to happen with these threads). We've already had a number of people with the usual "Cultural appropriation is stupid because here is my utopia dream of how we treat each other in the US". and other such nonsense that really should be dismissed but we can't help but respond to such nonsense.

Again, divorce yourself from the little girl because it's no longer about her. I'm no longer talking about her, she is an anchor to none of my posts anymore. She doesn't speak for America at large much like any one black person doesn't speak for African Americans at large.

The girl can do with what she wants with her hair, no one should draw issue with that. People should redirect their anger to the massive cog that is American news, media, employment and how they they view and treat the different groups of people when they do the same thing. It is because of that different treatment that we have the cries of cultural appropriation.

A few posters have made the suggestion that blacks are segregating themselves and that they should be trying to assimilate and this is the best way...these people (bless their hearts) clearly speak from a place of either privilege (trigger word!) or ignorance (double trigger!). Black people have been trying to "assimilate" since they were brought here. Blacks are simply responding to the segregation being afflicted upon them, in order for blacks to segregate themselves you have to put forward the argument that segregation has ended....it really hasn't. Segregation ends when racism ends and racism in this country is far from over.

It was called white flight not black flight, black people have been trying to assimilate for fucking ages, too bad the majority group by large doesn't want said assimilation and passes law after law to disenfranchise, imprison and generally keep blacks in a fucked state out of hatred, fear and stupidity, and what's worse is that so many Americans are completely fine with it, and others even blame black people saying things like "earn it first". Black people have "earned" equality 600x over.

I went on a craaaazy bit of tagents but meh.

TL;DR - No one is talking about the little girl at this point, divorce yourself from her.
Damn good post. You da real MVP.
 

Air

Banned
Every race thread on this board has got to be like 10 page minimum even over the simplest of things. I grazed through this last page and saw 'what if someone is color blind to race' and than I realized why it's always like this.
 
Which is why it's unfortunate and unacceptable that she's being targeted for it.

However, there's a very real conversation to be had about this issue. She's basically what amounts to an innocent bystander, and that sucks.

Yeah my bad, I just read "Angelus Errare" post. I should've read more of this thread to understand where it went (no longer about the girl, but about culture appropriation).
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
My argument is not really about cultural appropriation, but colorblindness.

However on the subject of cultural appropriation, my argument here is not "this is wrong" or "this is right." It's "we have to understand where the sensitivity comes from, and why minorities react the way they do about stuff like this."

If we want to stop seeing reactions like this, we have to fix the problems society has which naturally makes different cultures more sensitive to issues like this.

But at what point do we sift out legitimate outrage with outrage for the sake of outrage (like this case)?

As just one J6P, there's not a lot I can do. I personally am not racist (unless you count hating all people as racist, but that's another story), but aside from living my life the way I do, there's not much I can do.

But maybe my view is more unique than that of an "anglo" white person? Growing up Greek in Australia I still copped shit, was teased, excluded etc. etc, so while not on the same level of an African American in white America, I"m still able to empathise (is empathise right?) with their situation, but obviosuly not fully. Fact is, I'm not a black person living in America.

The closest thing I (or most posters on GAF) is to I guess callout bullshit when we see it and not perpetuate the garbage ourselves. But then that's not what this thread started as so I'm not too sure what else I can contribute to the thread on it's current track.

So excuse any ignorance I may have displayed here.
 

Five

Banned
Not even. Because by definition a person saying they can be colorblind is in of itself a way of disregarding the fact that a minority cannot genuinely be so in almost every case due to the way society around them works. So when these people say they're "colorblind", it's actually yet another way of diminishing the hardships that exist whether someone wants to "not see race" or not.

How can a black person not see race when they have to literally fear that they will be shot by police or incarcerated at a rate six times higher than white folk and with 20% longer sentences than comparable whites with similar criminal backgrounds? How can they not see race when a Black individual with a college degree is about as likely to get a job as a high school dropout?

Treating people of color the same way you treat white people is actively fighting against racism. Just because people of color still suffer from things like institutionalized racism does not mean that being colorblind is a bad thing. The onus is not on the individual to fix the sins of the rest of the world.
 

dreams

Member
The sad thing is, now I'm in a catch 22 situation where I can't say jack because I used a bad choice a words. It's all 'privileged' this or 'cultural appropriation' that.

People are too damn keen to shove people into groups, and that's half the problem we have going on today. The idea that one could look at another and see a person rather then a group is so alien that it must be privileged, and not, you know, the result of a proper upbringing.

My mother dealt with this crap more then you can possibly believe, and she raised us not to do such things. Hell, she refuses to talk to grandma anymore because of her actions towards her kids growing up.

So no, it's not 'privilege' it's the result of someone who went though this growing up and wanted to make sure her children wouldn't be the sort to do that to others.

I feel like Amir0x already has been discussing this with you in a much better, more coherent way than I have, and you still aren't really getting it.

So the tweets the OP are not being racist?

I mean, ordinarily I don't throw up arms when people say you can't be racist to white people due to their perceived intent, but if you're being 100% serious I think that's a bit ridiculous given what started this conversation.


No, I don't see any of those tweets as racist. Frustrated people airing their frustrations? Yes. Racist? No.

"Mayo" is not racist terminology. It doesn't hold any of the same weight as terms used against POC.
 

Air

Banned
Treating people of color the same way you treat white people is actively fighting against racism. Just because people of color still suffer from things like institutionalized racism does not mean that being colorblind is a bad thing. The onus is not on the individual to fix the sins of the rest of the world.

The point is that it's a privilege to treat people that way and POC cannot afford to do so. The individual is being complicit in potential damages by not realizing that there may be opportunities where they can educate others on situations regarding race (using their privilege for good), but because they live in some weird dreamworld they can't and these conversations don't progress because one side is refusing to acknowledge reality.
 

Amir0x

Banned
But at what point do we sift out legitimate outrage with outrage for the sake of outrage (like this case)?

As just one J6P, there's not a lot I can do. I personally am not racist (unless you count hating all people as racist, but that's another story), but aside from living my life the way I do, there's not much I can do.

But maybe my view is more unique than that of an "anglo" white person? Growing up Greek in Australia I still copped shit, was teased, excluded etc. etc, so while not on the same level of an African American in white America, I"m still able to empathise (is empathise right?) with their situation, but obviosuly not fully. Fact is, I'm not a black person living in America.

The closest thing I (or most posters on GAF) is to I guess callout bullshit when we see it and not perpetuate the garbage ourselves. But then that's not what this thread started as so I'm not too sure what else I can contribute to the thread on it's current track.

The best way I can put it is like this.

Let's say you have two kids, one is purple and one is blue. Every day you give the purple kid a special new toy, and once a week you give the blue kid a toy from the dollar store. You allow these kids to interact, so the blue kid realizes that the purple kid is getting a lot more toys than she is.

Then one day, after about three months, you stop giving the blue kid a toy at all, whereas the purple kid just continues to get special toys every single day. The blue kid begins to look at the toys she accumulated - about 12 of them - and starts to create a unique approach to playing with the toys to make them extra special for her. Maybe the blue kid gets creative and starts changing their clothes a certain way, or maybe they invent a special game involving their toys that only the blue kid knows the rules to.

Then let's say one day you put the kids back together and the blue kid casually mentions how much fun she is having with her special toy game, and shares some of the rules of how it works with the purple kid. The next day, the blue kid notices the purple kid has started playing with his toys like she does, and gets pretty upset.



Let's stop here for a moment.

Now, take this out of context. Let's say we just heard that the blue kid had toys and the purple kid had toys, and the blue kid didn't like that the purple kid was playing toys her way. Pretty ridiculous, right?

Now put it into the context of the way it actually was working out for the blue kid. While it's true that it's very "sensitive" and that it's not an ideal way to react, it's necessary to recognize that this is the obvious outcome of a system that is set up the way it was. Society as broken as ours breeds hypersensitivity to issues like this.

So I think rather than condemn what seems silly to us on the surface, we should look at the deeper causes involved and wonder why the reactions are the way they are. What are the root causes? Why? How do we fix it?
 
The sad thing is, now I'm in a catch 22 situation where I can't say jack because I used a bad choice a words. It's all 'privileged' this or 'cultural appropriation' that.

People are too damn keen to shove people into groups, and that's half the problem we have going on today. The idea that one could look at another and see a person rather then a group is so alien that it must be privileged, and not, you know, the result of a proper upbringing.

My mother dealt with this crap more then you can possibly believe, and she raised us not to do such things. Hell, she refuses to talk to grandma anymore because of her actions towards her kids growing up.

So no, it's not 'privilege' it's the result of someone who went though this growing up and wanted to make sure her children wouldn't be the sort to do that to others.
I can get where you're coming from; things like "white privilege"...these are just labels the media creates to try and fit a lot of real problems into a neat, tidy, somewhat inaccurate label, which actually belittles the problems more than anything. They also create a sort of environment for feedback loops of ego-stroking, at least in my eyes. Those labels don't do a service to addressing problems, they just seem to embellish them.

This is off-topic, but it's similar to the EDM label. I hate that term. It's a dumb catch-all that belittles all the variety in different electronic music. If I say I'm an EDM-head people would probably picture me in some Coachella gear partying to Guette or Pitbull, when I don't like either one of them at all. There's all sorts of little variances between the trance scene and drum&bass scene for example (let alone the variances in DnB; hell there's still big arguments over if Jungle and DnB are interchangeable or the same thing. Imho they aren't).
 
No, I don't see any of those tweets as racist. Frustrated people airing their frustrations? Yes. Racist? No.

"Mayo" is not racist terminology. It doesn't hold any of the same weight as terms used against POC.

"GOD whites are so annoying"? And I mean, I know mayo won't have as nearly as much weight against a white person as much as a slur would against a person of color. But it's still an atempt to harass someone because of their race and the color of their skin.

I understand what you're saying. That's it's not institutionalized, etc. I completely agree. But it still makes you a seriously shitty person to generalize one person by the behaviour of their race, and that's what people in the OP did.

I'm not sure what to call actions like that if not racist.
 

Five

Banned
The point is that it's a privilege to treat people that way and POC cannot afford to do so. The individual is being complicit in potential damages by not realizing that there may be opportunities where they can educate others on situations regarding race (using their privilege for good), but because they live in some weird dreamworld they can't and these conversations don't progress because one side is refusing to acknowledge reality.

Okay, but just because you're colorblind doesn't mean you're not also an activist.

Being colorblind is about treating people equally. That's it. It's not about activism. It's not about ignoring things. It's about in your own personal experiences treating people equally. Stop demonizing that because there's nothing wrong with treating people equally.

No, that's called being a base-level normal human being. I'm not rewarding this basic behavior by saying it's "actively fighting against racism."

Uh, yeah it is. Because base-line for most white and privileged people is to act on their comfort zones and in-bred privileges, and to treat others as lesser. To treat others as normal will be actively fighting racism up until everyone normally is treated as normal.
 

Air

Banned
Okay, but just because you're colorblind doesn't mean you're not also an activist.

Being colorblind is about treating people equally. That's it. It's not about activism. It's not about ignoring things. It's about in your own personal experiences treating people equally. Stop demonizing that because there's nothing wrong with treating people equally.

I'm not demonizing it, I'm saying that it's a privilege to do so. If you want to say that about yourself, fine you should just realize that most people on the planet can't and that there's a potential for staying ignorant about problems because of that worldview.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Okay, but just because you're colorblind doesn't mean you're not also an activist.

Being colorblind is about treating people equally. That's it. It's not about activism. It's not about ignoring things. It's about in your own personal experiences treating people equally. Stop demonizing that because there's nothing wrong with treating people equally.



Uh, yeah it is. Because base-line for most white and privileged people is to act on their comfort zones and in-bred privileges, and to treat others as lesser. To treat others as normal will be actively fighting racism up until everyone normally is treated as normal.

I feel like you're already too emotional to really read points since you've ignored most of the big points wholesale and continue to demonstrate a profound misunderstanding of the issues at play.

What I will say is that if you are interested in a deeper understanding about why saying you're "colorblind" is problematic, read the phenomenal book Racism without Racists: Color-Blind Racism and the Persistence of Racial Inequality in the United States. If you read that, I think you'll have a better grasp of the issues at play and might have a more complex understanding of what people are saying here.
 

Trey

Member
This is always hard to deal with. Especially since everything people have been saying is valid. Black women feeling like they are forced to straighten their hair to fit in, but then white people taking the hairstyle they abandoned. It must feel terrible.

With a 14 year old kid though it's tough. The response as always should be to educate. I can't blame a kid who just isn't aware of all the subtle cultural reasons people would object to a hair style.

We are at the real growing pains part of this. The so called "obvious racism" people see in the history books is mostly gone in a lot of places in the US. White kids are raised to not see any difference between people of color and themselves, and yet as is evident by recent events we really aren't finished yet, so you are going to get people making mistakes like this. I just hope people can empathize from both sides.

Sure.

A lot of the posts in this thread complaining about culture appropriation are fueled by reactions to these twitter posts about this young girl's hair. Nearly every poster in this thread shedding light on the subject of culture appropriation are taking great care to explain the issue in a general sense. No one is justifying the treatment this girl has faced, and she should be commended for taking the experience positively and learning the context behind her hair style. She has as much right as anyone to wear her hair how she wants.

This is why the discussion of the topic has necessarily shifted from this girl in particular into the topic of cultural appropriation as a whole, because there is little leverage with which to discuss her particular point of view. Many of these discussions center around behavior in the aggregate, which is where much of the miscommunication between the two "sides" comes from. To invoke cultural appropriation is not saying this girl or any person couldn't wear their hair in a way that is most associated with a particular culture. To invoke cultural appropriation is to explain what still occurs in our society which causes POC to be wary of situations such as these. And some people take their apprehension too far, or exploit the meta in order to hurt people. There are various motivations, but understanding the current state of affairs is important. It's extremely easy to tell people to "get over it" when it doesn't personally affect or bother you.
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
The best way I can put it is like this.

Let's say you have two kids, one is purple and one is blue. Every day you give the purple kid a special new toy, and once a week you give the blue kid a toy from the dollar store. You allow these kids to interact, so the blue kid realizes that the purple kid is getting a lot more toys than she is.

Then one day, after about three months, you stop giving the blue kid a toy at all, whereas the purple kid just continues to get special toys every single day. The blue kid begins to look at the toys he accumulated - about 12 of them - and starts to create a unique approach to playing with the toys to make them extra special for her. Maybe the blue kid gets creative and starts changing their clothes a certain way, or maybe they invent a special game involving their toys that only the blue kid knows the rules to.

Then let's say one day you put the kids back together and the blue kid casually mentions how much fun she is having with her special toy game, and shares some of the rules of how it works with the purple kid. The next day, the blue kid notices the purple kid has started playing with his toys like she does, and gets pretty upset.



Let's stop here for a moment.

Now, take this out of context. Let's say we just heard that the blue kid had toys and the purple kid had toys, and the blue kid didn't like that the purple kid was playing toys her way. Pretty ridiculous, right?

Now put it into the context of the way it actually was working out for the blue kid. While it's true that it's very "sensitive" and that it's not an ideal way to react, it's necessary to recognize that this is the obvious outcome of a system that is set up the way it was. Society as broken as ours breeds hypersensitivity to issues like this.

So I think rather than condemn what seems silly to us on the surface, we should look at the deeper causes involved and wonder why the reactions are the way they are. What are the root causes? Why? How do we fix it?

Which is probably why I shoudl exit the discussion at this point. I honestly don't think I can add anything meaningful to the conversation on it's current tangent. I have no idea how it can be fixed in the US (or anywhere for that matter).

It seems like a vicious endless cycle to me. I mean, in the end, rednecks will breed more rednecks won't they? My child will grow up the way I did, which is to say not supporting racism, but at the same time as many in here already hate "not seeing colour". Hopefully my daughter will just see epople for what they are. Be it black, asian, european, arab etc. Even now, she's growing up spending lots of time with friends kids who are half Vietnamese, half Greek. I assume she won't know any different and won't see "Oh, he's Asian, he's clearly different from me". My hope is she just sees him as Him.

On a smaller scale level, that's kind of all we can hope for. Hopefully slowly slowly over time, racists are simply "bred out of existence" - for want of a better phrase.
 
Uh, yeah it is. Because base-line for most white and privileged people is to act on their comfort zones and in-bred privileges, and to treat others as lesser. To treat others as normal will be actively fighting racism up until everyone normally is treated as normal.
As long as you're promoting "colorblindness," you're dismissing the life experiences and issues minorities suffer every day.

Keep using the word "normal" here though.
 

Five

Banned
I feel like you're already too emotional to really read points since you've ignored most of the big points wholesale and continue to demonstrate a profound misunderstanding of the issues at play.

What I will say is that if you are interested in a deeper understanding about why saying you're "colorblind" is problematic, read the phenomenal book Racism without Racists: Color-Blind Racism and the Persistence of Racial Inequality in the United States. If you read that, I think you'll have a better grasp of the issues at play and might have a more complex understanding of what people are saying here.

I'm going to take you up on that and read the book. I also want to apologize because I'm admittedly in a bad mood today.

But tell me this: If I consider myself colorblind, and all I mean by that is I treat people equally regardless of their skin color, name or culture, are you calling that a bad thing? Or are you attaching some bad iteration of "colorblind" to my meaning for it?
 

Amir0x

Banned
I'm going to take you up on that and read the book. I also want to apologize because I'm admittedly in a bad mood today.

No need to apologize at all. This is a very sensitive subject and people are naturally defensive about it. For me, it's more important we try to understand where each of us are coming from and try to find ways we can open our minds to appreciate where these problems come from.

But tell me this: If I consider myself colorblind, and all I mean by that is I treat people equally regardless of their skin color, name or culture, are you calling that a bad thing? Or are you attaching some bad iteration of "colorblind" to my meaning for it?

I don't think of it strictly in terms of "bad" or "good." I think of it more like it's a person who has good intentions but does not necessarily realize the way it comes off to other people. I think most people who say they are "colorblind" are not really racist or anything like that. I just think they misunderstand how the phrase sounds to most minorities. And I think because their intentions are usually pure, it's easier to get upset when someone says "no man, that's not cool."

We're all human. In our daily lives, we probably do things like this all the time big and small without realizing it. But it's nice when we can sit down and listen to other perspectives and really try to understand where they're coming from.
 
because they're the ones who call the cops saying you have a gun in Walmart and were pointing it at people and they're scared.

And that has what to do with fashion? No one is denying their are racial issues like police brutality toward minorities.

Not even. Because by definition a person saying they can be colorblind is in of itself a way of disregarding the fact that a minority cannot genuinely be so in almost every case due to the way society around them works. So when these people say they're "colorblind", it's actually yet another way of diminishing the hardships that exist whether someone wants to "not see race" or not.

Is there some middle ground between not judging people on the basis of their skin and diminishing the hardships of minorities? How does one live neutrally when apparently that's just as bad as being racist?

Edit: read your reply to Abe, and yeah, you have to be sensitive to how you act. In this case though, the girl may not have considered a hair style to be something 'off limits' the way that other, more distinctly racial things are. 'Colorblind' was just a poor choice of words, to be honest. The intent was one who doesn't see everything in terms of race, but rather, in terms of people. Hell, I had no idea it was even a sensitive word, to be honest. I'm more used to people trying the old 'i'm not racist but...' thing, which was often followed by something pretty damn racist.
 
Treating people of color the same way you treat white people is actively fighting against racism. Just because people of color still suffer from things like institutionalized racism does not mean that being colorblind is a bad thing. The onus is not on the individual to fix the sins of the rest of the world.

 
I really didn't like her snarky "apology". Why do white people have to be so insensitive. :/ I'm so embarrassed to be white.

There's nothing to be embarrassed about the girl, She didn't do anything out of malice.

I personally don't see it as she did nothing wrong, and I'm not fond of the situation in which some people call out well dressed black men as ''trying to look white''. I see how culture appropriation can offend like a non Jewish person wearing a yarmulke or a non native American wearing a feather crown, but I don't think it applies in these kind of situation. Though I understand that it can affect some people more easily than others.
 

Trey

Member
To say you're colorblind is to not acknowledge that POC are currently treated differently by our society at large, have historically been shat upon, and widely struggle every day to maintain their identity. Which is offensive.

What you mean to say is that you empathize with people regardless of their race or creed, and you understand that they are human just like anyone else.
 

Mumei

Member
I also strongly recommend that book that Amir0x suggested. I also came across this article (which unfortunately I don't have access to D:), but the abstract explains the issue people take with "colorblindness" as an ideological position:

Abstract: This paper examines the social and political functions colorblindness serves for whites in the United States. Drawing on interviews and focus groups with whites from around the country I argue that colorblindness maintains white privilege by negating racial inequality. Embracing a post-race, colorblind perspective allows whites to imagine that being white or black or brown has no bearing on an individual's or a group's relative place in the socio-economic hierarchy. Starting with the deeply held belief that America is now a meritocracy, whites are able to imagine that the material success they enjoy relative to racial minorities is a function only of individual hard work, determination, thrift and investments in education. The color-blind perspective removes from personal thought and public discussion any taint of suggestion of white supremacy or white guilty while legitimating the existing social, political and economic arrangements which privilege whites. This perspective insinuates that class and culture, and not institutional racism, are responsible for social inequality. Colorblindness allows many whites to define themselves as politically progressive and racially tolerant as they proclaim their adherence to a belief system that does not see or judge individuals by "the color of their skin."

The introduction to Bonilla-Silva's book explores this in greater detail:


Nowadays, except for members of white supremacist organizations, few whites in the United States claim to be "racist." Most whites assert they "don't see color, just people"; that although the ugly face of discrimination is still with us, it is no longer the central factor determining minorities' life chances; and, finally, that like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., they aspire to live in a society where "people are judged by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin." More poignantly, most whites insist that minorities (especially blacks) are the ones responsible for whatever "race problem" we have in this country. They publicly denounce blacks for "playing the race card," for demanding the maintenance of unnecessary and divisive race-based programs such as affirmative action, and for crying "racism" whenever they are criticized by whites. Most whites believe that if blacks and other minorities would just stop thinking about the past, work hard, and complain less (particularly about racial discrimination), then Americans of all hues could "get along."

But regardless of whites' "sincere fictions," racial considerations shade almost everything in America. Blacks and dark-skinned racial minorities lag well behind whites in virtually every area of social life; they are about three times more likely to be poor than whites, earn about 40 percent less than whites, and have about an eighth of the net worth that whites have. They also receive an inferior education compared to whites, even when they attend integrated institutions. In terms of housing, black-owned units comparable to white-owned ones are valued at 35 percent less. Blacks and Latinos also have less access to the entire housing market because whites, through a variety of exclusionary practices by white realtors and homeowners, have been successful in effectively limiting their entrance into many neighborhoods. Blacks receive impolite treatment in stores, in restraints, and in a host of other commercial transactions. Researchers have also documented that blacks pay more for goods such as cars and houses than do whites. Finally, blacks and dark-skinned Latinos are the targets of racial profiling by the police, which, combined with the highly racialized criminal court system, guarantees their over-representation among those arrested, prosecuted, incarcerated, and if charged for a capital crime, executed. Racial profiling on the highways has become such a prevalent phenomenon that a term has emerged to describe it: driving while black. In short, blacks and most minorities are "at the bottom of the well."

How is it possible to have this tremendous degree of racial inequality in a country where most whites claim that race is no longer relevant? More importantly, how do whites explain the apparent contradiction between their professed color blindness and the United States' color-coded inequality? In this book, I have attempted to answer both of these questions. I contend that whites have developed powerful explanations - which have ultimately become justifications - for contemporary racial inequality that exculpate them for any responsibility for the status of people of color. These explanations emanate from a new racial ideology that I label colorblind racism. This ideology, which acquired cohesiveness and dominance in the late 1960s, explains contemorary racial inequality as the outcome of nonracial dynamics. Whereas Jim Crow explained blacks' social standing as the result of their biological and moral inferiority, color-blind racism avoids such facile arguments. Instead, whites rationalize minorities' contemporary status as the product of market dynamics, naturally occurring phenomena, and blacks' imputed cultural limitations. For instance, whites can attribute Latinos' high poverty rate to a relaxed work ethic ("the Hispanics are mañana, mañana, mañana - tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow") or residential segregation as the result of natural tendencies among groups ("Does a dog and a cat mix? I can't see it. You can't drink milk and scotch. Certain mixes don't mix.").

Color-blind racism became the dominant racial ideology as the mechanisms and practices for keeping blacks and other racial minorities "at the bottom of the well" changed. I have argued elsewhere that contemporary racial inequality is reproduced through "new racism" practices that are subtle, institutional, and apparently nonracial. In contrast to the Jim Crow era, where racial inequality was enforced through overt means (e.g., signs saying "No Niggers Welcome Here" or shotgun diplomacy at the voting booth), today racial practices operate in a "now you see it, now you don't" fashion. For example, residential segregation, which is almost as high today as it was in the past, is no longer accomplished through overtly discriminatory practices. Instead, covert behaviors such as not showing all available units, steering minorities and whites into certain neighborhoods, quoting higher rents or prices to minority applicants, or not advertising units at all are the weapons of choice to maintain separate communities. In the economic field, "smiling face" discrimination ("We don't have jobs now, but please check later"), advertising job openings in mostly white networks and ethnic newspapers, and steering highly educated people of color into poorly remunerated jobs or jobs with limited opportunities for mobility are the new ways of keeping minorities in a secondary position. Politically, although the civil rights struggles have helped remove many of the obstacles for the electoral participation of people of color, "racial gerrymandering, multimember legislative districts, election runoffs, annexation of predominately white areas, at-large district elections, and anti-single-shot devices (disallowing concentrating votes in one or two candidates in cities using at-large elections) have become standard practices to disenfranchise" people of color. Whether in banks, restaurants, school admissions, or housing transactions, the maintenance of white privilege is done in a way that defies facile racial readings. Hence, the contours of color-blind racism fit America's new racism quite well.

Compared to Jim Crow racism, the ideology of color blindness seems like "racism lite." Instead of relying on name calling (niggers, spics, chinks), color-blind racism otherizes softly ("these people are human, too"); instead of proclaiming that God placed minorities in the world in a servile position, it suggests they are behind because they do not work hard enough; instead of viewing interracial marriage as wrong on a straight racial basis, it regards it as "problematic" because of concerns over children, location, or the extra burden it places in couples. Yet this new ideology has become a formidable political tool for the maintenance of the racial order. Much as Jim Crow racism served as the glue for defending a brutal and overt system of racial oppression in the pre-civil rights era, color-blind racism serves today as the ideological armor for a covert and institutionalized system in the post-civil rights era. And the beauty of this new ideology is that it aids in the maintenance of white privilege without fanfare, without naming those who it subjects and those who it rewards. It allows a president to state things such as, "I strongly support diversity of all kinds, including racial diversity in higher education," yet at the same time characterize the University of Michigan's affirmative action program as "flawed" and "discriminatory" against whites. Thus whites enunciate positions that safeguard their racial interests without sounding "racist." Shielded by color blindness, whites can express resentment toward minorities; criticize their morality, values, and work e thic; and even claim to be victims of "reverse racism." This is the thesis I will defend in this book to explain the curious enigma of "racism without racists."
 
There's nothing to be embarrassed about the girl, She didn't do anything out of malice.

I personally don't see it as she did nothing wrong, and I'm not fond of the situation in which some people call out well dressed black men as ''trying to look white''. I see how culture appropriation can offend like a non Jewish person wearing a yarmulke or a non native American wearing a feather crown, but I don't think it applies in these kind of situation. Though I understand that it can affect some people more easily than others.

kawaii desu
 

tuna_love

Banned
I"m fully understanding of all you've said and are saying.

I just don't feel it applies here in this case. Why can't this girl wearing box braids be seen as a celebration of black culture? Which is technically what it is if you believe her "I saw it and liked it so I wantwed to copy it" story?

Why does it always have ot be glass half empty when it comes to perceived racism? It's not she wore a Klan hood to halloween, it's not like she shaved n***er into her head, it's not like she went blackface.

She emulated a hairstyle she loved. It's that simple. I understand the unfortunate societal restrictions placed on minorities in the world (not just the US, we have an arguably worse scenario with Aboriginal folk in Australia), but I just don't view the outrage in this particular instance justified at all.

Aboriginal people in Australia don't get upset when non-Aboriginals try to celebrate their culture.
No one really celebrates our culture here.
 
I see a lot of white girls do this when they go on vacation to caribbean locals. I laughed the first time I saw it, then realized I was at a clothing optional beach in Cancun, surrounded by a vacationing Korean college girl troupe and French graduates on holiday... grabbed my self a mug of corona and let that shit pass.

Either way who cares about her hair style Its just a style, not exclusive to anyone.

Besides... have not seen anyone with this style of hair seriously since 1996, that's the real offense.
 
I see a lot of white girls do this when they go on vacation to caribbean locals. I laughed the first time I saw it, then realized I was at a clothing optional beach in Cancun, surrounded by a vacationing Korean college girl troupe and French graduates on holiday... grabbed my self a mug of corona and let that shit pass.

Either way who cares about her hair style Its just a style, not exclusive to anyone.

Besides... have not seen anyone with this style of hair seriously since 1996, that's the real offense.

People will argue that Black Girls straighten their hair out of necessity rather than choice.
 

Five

Banned
No need to apologize at all. This is a very sensitive subject and people are naturally defensive about it. For me, it's more important we try to understand where each of us are coming from and try to find ways we can open our minds to appreciate where these problems come from.

I don't think of it strictly in terms of "bad" or "good." I think of it more like it's a person who has good intentions but does not necessarily realize the way it comes off to other people. I think most people who say they are "colorblind" are not really racist or anything like that. I just think they misunderstand how the phrase sounds to most minorities. And I think because their intentions are usually pure, it's easier to get upset when someone says "no man, that's not cool."

We're all human. In our daily lives, we probably do things like this all the time big and small without realizing it. But it's nice when we can sit down and listen to other perspectives and really try to understand where they're coming from.

I appreciate you saying that.


That's such a fucking stupid straw man argument, I'm ashamed that I'm even addressing it. Watering a normal house is not caring for it nor treating it equally. Treating the houses equally would be having no qualms about putting out the fire on whichever house is burning.
 
Hmmm ... this really brings up some interesting thoughts.

As a chocolate man myself I think it's silly as fuck to gang up on a girl for having braids just cause she's white. (fuck, half the people I see with dreads are white and that's something else that's greatly attached to the culture)

But ... I see a strange mirroring with Asian culture in this way. Like "Weeaboo". I use to ( when I was younger and saw more people strung out on Japanese shit) swing that word around a lot. Hell, I still do. Anytime I see someone use Japanese words for no reason or call Pokemon by their Japanese names I'd go "Blah! *roll-eyes :mad: "
( that pokemon name shit is actually very annoying and is like half the reason I left serebii ..)

I have never seen much-if-any backlash for that stuff.
It seems ok to mock people for appropriating some cultures and not others ...

Like, I remember a slam poetry by an American Korean girl that basically bashed American youth for thinking it's cute to toss around random Korean words/ appropriate Korean culture from K-pop and how her struggle to stand in both worlds ( being American but still holding onto her roots) is a real thing ... and she got mad love from the crowd, the internet and so on.
But a chocolate girl telling people to do the same for "black culture" seems like it would get met with backlash as seen here ...

Strange ...

I just watched it.
yeh she a dick
The same thing happens in Korea with English.
The perspective of one American so removed from their heritage isn't very interesting, nor should it inform behaviour.


I think that a person can be legitimately angry at being seeming patronized and it's one of the reasons why I'm not into languages. I'm really terrible at learning them, and I feel like I do native speakers a disservice when I try. It all comes off as a it fake to spout a few words in an attempt to what, seem cute? But I think it's also important to try and keep an open mind about things and to not try to assume malice when there might not be any.


You're doing yourself a disservice by thinking that way about native speakers and you should try. I'm sure there are a few people like that in every culture but for the most part native speakers appreciate the effort. It's only fake if you are being fake. Genuine attempts to communicate with other people in their native language are good.
 
To say you're colorblind is to not acknowledge that POC are currently treated differently by our society at large, have historically been shat upon, and widely struggle every day to maintain their identity. Which is offensive.

What you mean to say is that you empathize with people regardless of their race or creed, and you understand that they are human just like anyone else.

Pretty much this. But why so hung up on a word though? I'm finding it hard to conflate the word with the ideologies people are attaching to it. Saying you just saw a cool hairstyle is a hell of a big difference from saying ' you don't see racial inequalities in society or a socioeconomic setting'.

I rolled my eyes when the SC basically voided parts of the voting rights act with their post racism bull. All it takes is looking at a map of voting districts to tell that isn't true.
 
I just watched it.
yeh she a dick
The same thing happens in Korea with English.
The perspective of one American so removed from their heritage isn't very interesting, nor should it inform behaviour.





You're doing yourself a disservice by thinking that way about native speakers and you should try. I'm sure there are a few people like that in every culture but for the most part native speakers appreciate the effort. It's only fake if you are being fake. Genuine attempts to communicate with other people in their native language are good.

Absolutely, while my grammar is lacking. My written English is good enough for me to post in forums like this and have people understand me. However my voculary skills are severely lacking, to the frustration of people trying to communicate with me that way (for example gaming online), but most people see my effort to speak their language and put equal effort to understand me. In that I learn the language, get less self conscious and it acts as a bonding exercise, because we are both giving our best to understand each other.

Learning a new language, opens yourself to a whole new world. Don't get discouraged.
 
That's such a fucking stupid straw man argument, I'm ashamed that I'm even addressing it. Watering a normal house is not caring for it nor treating it equally. Treating the houses equally would be having no qualms about putting out the fire on whichever house is burning.
one 'house' is burning, you either can't see it beyond your equality glasses or just refuse to admit it. your response makes me lean towards the latter.
 
That's such a fucking stupid straw man argument, I'm ashamed that I'm even addressing it. Watering a normal house is not caring for it nor treating it equally. Treating the houses equally would be having no qualms about putting out the fire on whichever house is burning.

I think that's the point. Saying 'all lives matter' is basically ignoring the very real problem one of the groups have under the guise of treating everyone equally.

The comic is just showing how absurd that rational is.
 
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