Winterfang
Banned
It's kind of how Sonic Colors runs in the Wii without the Hedgehog engine. Is feels really slow compared to the HD ones.
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Could have Sonic the Hedgehog been done on the SNES?
- Thread starter CurseoftheGods
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MrCunningham
Member
Well, the GBA doesn't have any 3D capabilities through the GPU, it all is done with the CPU in software. The ARM7 is capable of doing 3D floating point calculations because it is a 32bit CPU. Something that did get exploited by the GBA demo scene (and yes the GBA had a demo scene) and other third party developers. Though I do think the GBA does have its own variant on Mode 7 within hardware, and it can display multiple 3D flat playing fields.
From what I understand about the Motorola 6800 CPU in the Genesis, it can also read 32bit instructions as well. Making it somewhat effective but slow for doing 3D calculations as well. This is something that the Genesis Star Fox demo is doing, I think.
Though there are also some examples of 3D being done on the SNES as well through the CPU without the aid of the SuperFX chip as well. Wolfenstein 3D used some sort of software rendering to do this, but It is not as effective as the Genesis. But the SNES has no hardware scaling or rotation outside of Mode7, which is just one simple flat 3D playing field. But then again, the only 16 bit systems that had it were the Sega CD and Atari Lynx.
I really can't think of any other examples on the SNES outside of RPM Racing that used the SNES high resolution mode during gameplay. The sequel Rock n' Roll Racing didn't use high resolution at all, instead it ran at standard resolution so they could use more colours in the background and it made the game run smoother as well. The few other SNES games that did use the high resolution mode used them for menu screens only, I think.
I think the PC Engine could also do 512x224 as well, but I dunno what games used it. The Sonic 2 two player split screen mode for the Genesis ran at 320x448, which displayed the game twice horizontally. That was really pushing the Genesis CPU.
The Sega genesis m68k has 32 bit instruction length (max) but a 16 bit bus. There were multiple configurations of the m68k.
Sapiens
Member
So you needed to two cycles to send one instruction? Or was there another cycle penalty to send the whole thing, or would it just know depending on how the first word looked - it's been a while since I've been in a architecture class---?
Interesting - never knew that.
Horsemama1956
Member
Sonic would have been better if it was slowed down a little bit. You can't even do anything when going fast. Most of the game is just flying past shit and hoping you don't hit something if the screen goes screwy.
You could also use 16 bit instruction length, which is the min. There were a variety of configurations that would yield different instruction lengths - 18 bit, 24 bit, etc.
Most everything on the genesis uses 16 bit instruction length for the very reason you identify.
The amiga 1200 is like king shit of the m68k computer family, because it had 32 bit instruction length and a 32 bit bus.
LMAO, I can't believe that people still believe that to this day.
This. A lot of people forget that the GBA was a more powerful SNES. It's not the exact same hardware.
Blast processing wasn't complete bullshit. I mean, the Genesis had a faster processor when compared to the SNES. That much is true.
So, the answer to the OP's question is no. Sonic would not be the same on SNES. It would run a lot slower, and a lot of levels wouldn't be the same.
Colors is also locked to 30FPS for gameplay. 60FPS is for the menus only in that game.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
The game would have run fine. Blast Processing just refers to the extra megahertz the Genesis had. The game would be fine. But the music wouldn't have sounded as cool. The Genesis had an inferior sound chip, but games that were designed for it could have some pretty good music. Sonics music is perfect as it is. On the SNES it would have sounded so different. Who knows. Sonic was designed specifically for the Genesis to show off the extra speed. So had he been designed at Nintendo with the same ideals I bet they could have done it fine.
MrCunningham
Member
Imagine...Virtua Fighter 1 on Gba
This is a homebrew tech demo, but somebody did try doing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hJqtxfNlhU
No, blast processing was their marketing term for their dma controller.
Which I believe the SNES had the same thing.
The snes had dma, but it was far more limited. The "blast" in blast processing refers to its remarkable speed increase during vblank. Dma is a process, not all dma controllers are built equal. Further, there slow snes cpu couldn't actually ready enough work for speedy dma to take advantage of.
Right, it's the speed of the DMA during vblank. SNES's DMA controller had its own tricks the Genesis lacked, too.
Blast processing. What a funny name.
Marketing terms for extremely specific technology is always funny. Like I said, I get a kick out of seeing "dynamic super resolution" advertised on my gtx 980 box.
Edit: and to make sure, no, a good dma controller was not what enabled the genesis to do sonic alone. Its the specific cpu used, as well as it's general speed. The m68k was good for doing speedy math at low cost.
MrCunningham
Member
As others have said, it was something that Sega marketers literally took out of a Genesis technical manual. They had no idea what it actually meant, but it sounded cool. They needed a good buzzword to counter Nintendo's use of "Mode 7" in marketing.
The z80 got a ton of use out of its life, too. The m68k and z80 are two of the most useful microprocessors of all time. You can still find them used in things.
They are easy to learn, too.
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
An aside, but this is also why none of the 2p zones selectable contain water. You can actually load and zone in sonic 2 into 2p mode. But trying to do the scanline palette swap will crash the game.
SNES cpu was a dog. All the slowdown in most of the early games and heck even later was due to this 3.58mhz meh. They had to find ways to use other modes for the backgrounds to help with the load. Unless SNES could do the Sonic backgrounds using mode7(doubtful) then I don't think it could run at the same speed. Esp when getting hit and rings fly out.
And_Gignac
Member
Damn guys, it has been 20 years. Let it go.
MrCunningham
Member
I didn't realize that there are no water zones in the 2 player race mode. But that is interesting. The Taxman port of Sonic 2 for mobile has a revamped two player race mode with all levels present. But I noticed that the Chemical Plant Zone stage removes the water as well but mainly because it is a triggered event. Not for any that it would crash the device.
Also, going back to this post. The GBA actually has a worse version of Earthworm Jim than either of the SNES and Genesis versions . This is something I posted in the "worst ports" thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWRB6L3-2Iw
It is a terrible port, but I honestly don't think it has anything to do with the hardware.
celsowmbr
Banned
Omg!
Comments like these aren't really any better than the kind of stereotypical fanboy driveby posts you see. There's been plenty of genuinely insightful and interesting discussion in this thread instead of posturing.
Seriously.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Honestly I wish we had more threads like this. Now a days instead of talking about the games its rather the writing or the story. That kinda stuff boring imo
They're very easy to pick up, too.
You also has stuff like RISC and hitachi's sh line of processors and the ever popular 6502.
Knowing a variety of processors is sort of a lost art. Its neat to set aside time and learn a processor. These days, you don't even have to know anything about your processor to be an at least competent programmer.
IronicSonic
Member
Well, even in GEN 7 we dont have a Sonic game with Naka's physics, let alone SNES
Mi 10 yo self really would have appreciated having a friend like Krejlooc
joke
Mi 10 yo self really would have appreciated having a friend like Krejlooc
The sound design of the game is really kind of brilliant. It has a very cohesive theme centered around mechanical bells going off. I haven't really seen anyone pick up on this detail but it's such a huge part of the identity of the sound effects. Losing rings sounds like an old telephone ringing (this has to be an intentional pun it is derived from). The sound of your points being tallied at the end of a zone is like a vintage cash register. The pinball bumpers are something... well, distinctively bell like.
It's tailored to dissonant bell timbres which are very easy to synthesize well in FM.
That's how I earn my paycheck nowadays, use readymade libraries/APIs on some overpriced middleware and call it a day.
I wouldn't have survived in the 80s/90s haha.
Its always set the series apart, imo. It plays off the arcade roots well. Its a pinball platformer, it sounds appropriately like an electro mechanical arcade machine, which also plays well into the type of sounds the genesis could output well.
Sonic 1 in particular has flawless sound design as far as I'm concerned.
I was more pointing out that if something could run sonic 1 no problem, it would be able to run sonic 2 no problem as well
What about 3K?
To be fair, being able to work with this type of hardware abstraction has been basically pointless for most of my life until I got into vr development. Hearing carmack talking about the return of interlaced devices and raster lines had me so excited, lol. If only because it'll give me a rare and valuable skill set.
I mainly study and learn these things because I want to know a machine inside and out. That's precisely why I find retro gaming so interesting - the systems are simple enough for you to learn how the entire thing works, down to the electricity running through the board and microprocessors.
SuperAngelo64
Banned
Would've been exactly the same, but without the tin-can sound of the Genesis that makes the Sonic soundtracks iconic.
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
That doesn't mean that they look better though.
3 & knuckles did a ton of optimization all over that let them do even more. You can port sonic 1 and 2 levels to sonic 3 without problem, going the other way requires a lot of work.
Sonic cd changed the engine up slightly too - it grants you much more control in the air with the way it stores and calculates velocity, but it's not as drastic as sonic 3 & knuckles.
They're all still the same engine, though, just different revisions. Ristar uses the sonic engine as well.
Sapiens
Member
If you just look below the surface of "OMG, let it go, sega guys!" you'll find a pretty interesting conversation about old school games.
If you haven't yet, you should seriously do yourself a favor and play Final Fight CD sometime. The port is amazing.
Why do people want to silence the discussion? There are legitimate differences between what the SNES and Megadrive could do.
Naka actually had smooth rotation working in the engine and hackers have worked out how to get it working; it's just a matter of turning on a simple flag, I think.
No-one knows why it wasn't featured in the final game but I'd imagine it's because the juddering helps reduce incidences of motion sickness--if you're someone who's susceptible to that sort of thing, the S1 special stage with smooth rotation is vomit city, even at relatively slow speeds.
Sapiens
Member
MY THEORY is that they wanted it to feel more like a tick-tock of a clock - which fits with the music as well. Just an opinion.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
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