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Could have Sonic the Hedgehog been done on the SNES?

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@MUWANdo

Banned
A more interesting question would be "what would a dev have to do in order approximate a Sonic-style game on SNES"? Not a port, necessarily, but something that recreated all the trademark elements: the momentum-based physics, the undulating surfaces, the fast scrolling, etc.

Uniracers is one example, of course, but something that doesn't suck would also be nice. I guess you could use Sonic Triple Trouble or the NGPC game as references.

(Come to think of it, I know next to nothing about the NGPC hardware... I'm pretty sure there's a Z80 in there, what's the main processor?)
 
Just from an aesthetic point of view, so much of Sonic for me is tied up in the music. It would have sounded so different on the SNES that it would almost be a different game for me.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
A more interesting question would be "what would a dev have to do in order approximate a Sonic-style game on SNES"? Not a port, necessarily, but something that recreated all the trademark elements: the momentum-based physics, the undulating surfaces, the fast scrolling, etc.

They could say storage space be damned and include a massive lookup table of precalculated values for common division and multiplication solutions. This would have made the physics feel much more "clockwork" - like it would move in notches, not really smoothly, and there would be limits on virtually any sort of motion possible (it'd all be precalculated math) but it would play similarly.

It would be rough and expensive, though.
 

@MUWANdo

Banned
They could say storage space be damned and include a massive lookup table of precalculated values for common division and multiplication solutions. This would have made the physics feel much more "clockwork" - like it would move in notches, not really smoothly, and there would be limits on virtually any sort of motion possible (it'd all be precalculated math) but it would play similarly.

It would be rough and expensive, though.

That's pretty much what the NGPC game is doing but on a larger scale, yeah? I haven't played it in a while but I remember the trajectories from ramps feeling a little more "digital", but that may have just been due to the ramps looking so orthogonal.
 
I like when both systems have really good remixes of the same soundtrack, because it's like having two covers of the same song. I generally prefer the Genesis EWJ soundtracks, especially the first, but I like having SNES remixes as well. All of the anything but tangerine versions are great.

I prefer the SCD EWJ1 soundtrack, since I think the SNES version has too much of a midi sound to it, with a lot of the same instrumentation appearing throughout the whole thing. They definitely got their shit together for EWJ2, though. The SNES soundtrack is probably the best of the three (Although the Genesis version is solid, especially the Flyin' King's track. The CD versions felt too overproduced and laden with masturbatory Tommy Tallerico guitar solos).
 

Pachinko

Member
SNES vs Genesis always interests me , despite the largest console war being finished for 20 years at this point it still has this certain soft spot.

Reading about all the specifics of how the processors and such worked , it really does seem to come to light that the Genesis was like the Xbox 360 and the SNES was like the PS3, it's the closest comparison out there really.

In my modern comparison the reasoning is flipped though- the 360 had a slightly worse CPU and a better GPU with access to unified ram that let developers do more stuff easily. The PS3 has a much better CPU if you can use it properly and a somewhat crummy GPU with a split memory architecture making it harder to utilize as efficiently. Porting back and forth between the systems always lead to a compromise.

Much the same way the Genesis and SNES seemed to work out - as others have said above, the SNES usually needed to slap an expensive extra chip inside the cartridge to really push the rest of the hardware in any real way. The CPU was a real bad bottle neck and since they were coming off the huge NES success the company was still cocky enough to have huge demands and charge tons of money to license their carts. So it came to be that it was just flat out more money to build a SNES game then a genesis one.

A barebones SNES vs a barebones genesis really comes down to 2 things - the SNES sound chip could handle samples far better then the genesis and it also output to a larger number of sound channels. The Genesis had better straight up synth but shittier samples, music sounded lower quality but punchier most times and by the mid 90's most developers were using more sampling so the longer the generation went the worse the genesis sounded.

The SNES had a crappy processor , half as fast as the genesis and until this thread I didn't realize that it was harder to do a bunch of high end math on top of that slower clockspeed. The graphical capabilities could certainly output 256 colors out of a pallette 32,000 strong compared to 64 out of 512 on the genesis but the sprites and music took up so much more space that the games were often at a lower resolution and had more slowdown. Basically they looked blurry and washed out until developers forked over the money for extra chips on carts or just paid way more cash for a larger 32 megabit cart. Either way , it was MUCH cheaper to build a sega genesis game.

Why this stuff is interesting to me now though, I didn't realize just how sloppy the SNES actually was in many respects. It suffered from the same issues Nintendo still seems to have - developed in a vacuum away from everyone else because they didn't think anyone else would matter. It ended up with some amazing games but really think on that - most of it's best titles are RPGs and virtually every top tier developer abandoned them as soon as it was easy to do so.

Getting back to the topic at hand though - reading about all this math stuff tells me that they could have done sonic on the SNES but without an extra chip to calculate that division math any attempt at a port would probably be very poor. Perhaps even the core physics engine in the game would need to be re-written and angle acceleration would just be a pre-baked integer instead of calculated on the fly. like, you hit a slop and no matter where you are , sonic would just accelerate more like mario does instead of with the closer to real physics of genesis sonic. The game would theoretically be more colorful but I suspect the camera would be zoomed in slightly more and there would be fewer enemies in the game.

If you had say a VC1 chip in there , then perhaps you could keep the physics closer but get rid of all the enemies in the game and make all the levels mode 7 pixel fests. They'd simply move around sonic instead of sonic moving through them. I can only imagine that would make for a very ugly game.

Get up to the super FX 2 chip and I think you could make a faithful recreation of any sonic game if you stuck it on a 32 or 48 megabit cartridge. So back in I don't know 1996 say, it would cost 130$ to play sonic 2 on a snes and the only thing it would have over it's genesis counterpart is perhaps better looking backgrounds and orchestral sounding music (which would honestly be a mixed bag).

Even considering all of that, the genesis , with the sega CD could do everything a snes could do outside of the 56 color problem. The sega CD was like a VC1 and a video processor added and since it was CD based, music could be redbook audio. Add a 32X to that mix and you've got a 500 $ piece of junk that could use CD quality music and display SNES level colors and Super FX 2 level effects but better. There's something to be said that seems logical with hardware additions instead of always adding chips to carts , you spend 200$ on one extra device to play better looking games or you spend 20$ extra on 10 different chip enabled games. It just came out too late to be a real contender, should have been built into the sega CD.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
That's pretty much what the NGPC game is doing but on a larger scale, yeah? I haven't played it in a while but I remember the trajectories from ramps feeling a little more "digital", but that may have just been due to the ramps looking so orthogonal.

The NGPC games fake everything. There are set slopes you move at sort of like what I described above, but where as above is providing the math precalculated, the NGPC would never have considered the math in the first place. Slopes push you out at certain speeds and all that. It's much more like the way the game gear games work, except much better put together. The Neo Geo Pocket Color's game's physics actually aren't very accurate, you just don't really notice because of the excellent level design.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
There's something to be said that seems logical with hardware additions instead of always adding chips to carts , you spend 200$ on one extra device to play better looking games or you spend 20$ extra on 10 different chip enabled games. It just came out too late to be a real contender, should have been built into the sega CD.

A long time ago, on another board, I did the research (but I've since lost the post) where I compared cost of new Super FX games using old advertisements as reference, vs the cost of 32X games. If you bought every single Super FX and Super FX2 game when they were new, you would spend the exact same amount as if you bought a 32X and an equivalent number of 32X titles as they were new.

Always thought that was interesting.
 

Ziffles

Member
Here's a good song from EWJ1 that I feel demonstrates the difference between the Genesis and SNES, particularly highlighting the ways the Genesis can produce deep, impactful bass:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa4Z7UpFA6o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5L7M7efN9w

and of course the official release:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_YdjYf29Ko
Yep, when the instruments didn't sound like farting robots and dying cats, the Genesis/Megadrive had the best synth rock/pop stuff. The unfiltered digital channel let you play low khz samples and still have them be punchy and grimy, whereas the same samples played through the SNES SPC-700 would apply it's Gaussian filter and sound like it's being played through a pillow. Plus an FM bass in the right hands is earth-shaking.

That said, it still sounds like the genesis EWJ samples are superior to the SNES ones, which sound like they're lopped off and lower rate (probably due to SPC RAM limitations).
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Yep, when the instruments didn't sound like farting robots and dying cats, the Genesis/Megadrive had the best synth rock/pop stuff. The unfiltered digital channel let you play low khz samples and still have them be punchy and grimy, whereas the same samples played through the SNES SPC-700 would apply it's Gaussian filter and sound like it's being played through a pillow. Plus an FM bass in the right hands is earth-shaking.

That said, it still sounds like the genesis EWJ samples are superior to the SNES ones, which sound like they're lopped off and lower rate (probably due to SPC RAM limitations).

The "farting robots" stuff generally refers to a specific sound driver, GEMS, which was basically part of the early Sega Genesis SDK. Almost every major third party developer used GEMS at some point, as did early Sega Games like Spiderman vs the Kingpin. It's not a very pretty sound driver.

Some companies went the extra mile. All of Tommy Talarico's stuff uses a sound driver he wrote for himself that did software mixing to play many samples at once, kind of like how the SNES worked. He pushed for lots of extra space in carts to get his samples to a high enough quality, and then would produce great stuff.

Technosoft also had a terrific custom sounddriver which let them produce incredible wailing synth guitar rock. Here is the Genesis version of Stage 2 from Thunder Force III:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcWRpJJLtpY

And here's the same music through the SNES:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSvmTmwRrZU

Of course Sega themselves eventually produced the awesome SMPS (Sample Music Playback System) which all the Sonic games and a bunch of other major first party Sega titles used. This could play back samples very cleanly (like the snare drum instrument from Sonic 1) and could produce a nice range of tones.

Just like I described the SNES graphics capabilities like a fixed function pipeline, from what I understand about it's audio, it's much the same. The Genesis audio, like it's video, is more of a programmable pipeline. Again, SNES is easier to use, but the Genesis seems much more flexible.
 

@MUWANdo

Banned
The NGPC games fake everything. There are set slopes you move at sort of like what I described above, but where as above is providing the math precalculated, the NGPC would never have considered the math in the first place. Slopes push you out at certain speeds and all that. It's much more like the way the game gear games work, except much better put together. The Neo Geo Pocket Color's game's physics actually aren't very accurate, you just don't really notice because of the excellent level design.

They didn't all do the auto-propel thing, did they? I know a lot of them did but I thought there were some that at least pretended to work a little more accurately. (Again, I really should just play the damn game again instead of trying to remember stuff from years ago, but who has time for that?)

Either way, you brought up another important point: the level design had a much greater bearing on the quality of the game than anything else, and Bubsy and all the other pretenders didn't suck because they didn't convincingly approximate Sonic-style physics, they sucked because the designers had no idea what they were doing (hell, even Sega's own designers barely knew what they were doing).
 

Krejlooc

Banned
They didn't all do the auto-propel thing, did they? I know a lot of them did but I thought there were some that at least pretended to work a little more accurately. (Again, I really should just play the damn game again instead of trying to remember stuff from years ago, but who has time for that?)

Either way, you brought up another important point: the level design had a much greater bearing on the quality of the game than anything else, and Bubsy and all the other pretenders didn't suck because they didn't convincingly approximate Sonic-style physics, they sucked because the designers had no idea what they were doing (hell, even Sega's own designers barely knew what they were doing).

Bubsy is just a mess all over. I think it's a poorly designed game on top of being a mechanical mess. There are a lot of really big problems with the way it handles velocity and acceleration that makes the controls feel terrible, and that problem is exasperated by a bunch of dumb design issues, 1 hit kills being the worst offender. And, yeah, the designers had no idea how to properly use that speed. I feel games like Zool and Bubsy took the wrong things from Sonic - they made a game where the character could go fast without realizing why going fast in Sonic was exhilarating. Most of the Sonic clones of that time are terrible games just because the people making them couldn't design a good Sonic-like game in the first place. The ones I actually enjoy - like Rocket Knight Adventure or Zool 2 or Quik the Thunder Rabbit or Jazz Jackrabbit - really tried to do their own thing rather than poorly imitate Sonic's gameplay.

That said, there are a few games which did copy the Sonic formula well enough and are mechanically competent. Kid Chaos on the Amiga plays very accurately to Sonic the Hedgehog, even though the level design is poorer and the object is muddied (you now have to destroy a certain percentage of random objects before reaching the end, rather than reaching the goal like in Sonic). But that it plays like sonic, with the same physics, makes it pretty fun to play.
 
I think one of the things people always forget with Sonic, which is something the clones definitely forgot, is that Sonic wasn't always about going fast, there were still tight controls and an occassional need for platforming. Levels where you could go fast often rewarded you with alternative paths through the level, but the game also telegraphed its self enough to let you know hen you needed to slow down and, even if you didn't, you had a chance to recover after taking a hit. One of the things that made some games so awful to play is not that you were punished for going fast, it's that there was rarely a need to because it left you vulnerable and unable to defend yourself, another thing Sonic had no issues with.
 
D

Deleted member 471617

Unconfirmed Member
If you haven't yet, you should seriously do yourself a favor and play Final Fight CD sometime. The port is amazing.

My all time favorite beat em up. FF CD was awesome and the only game that I would ever give a perfect 10/10 too simply because no matter how many times I played through the game, I kept wanting to play through it again. Bought a Sega CDX just for FF CC and Snatcher. Both games are definitely worth playing.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
you must be kidding
There were way faster games on SNES without anysort of additional chips

Without picking on you specifically, I always chuckle when I see people equating faster CPU to the character moving faster on the screen. I guess that's how the average person thinks computers work, like it takes a faster processor for Sonic to run fast.
 

virtualS

Member
The Super Nintendo was designed to accommodate add on co-processors in cartridge. The machine's main Ricoh CPU in itself may not be as capable as the Motorola found in the Genesis/MD (even though there are games which do incredible things with it and there's much more to a CPU than mere MHz) but that was never really the point of the system. Even Pilotwings, a launch title, had a custom DSP co-processor aiding it in cartridge.

I could imagine some aspects of Sonic 1 would be difficult to replicate on a stock SNES without any main processor assistance... NOT the speed at which the screen scrolls... but perhaps when Sonic get hits and bursts into a screen full of rings or the special stage as it appears to be comprised of a bunch of spinning sprites.... Mode 7 like but not a simple fixed function single-plane rotation. I'd argue they'd all be possible in the right hands though.

Regardless, a SNES version would have looked more colourful and sounded better (arguably) than it did on Sega's hardware. Had it used a SFX chip or something similar designed to aid in sprite calculation then there's no doubt that it could be superior graphically.

Looking back, one of the reasons the 16-bit generation was so awesome was because there were multiple machines competing that were awesome in their own right but in different ways because of their different strengths and weaknesses. Identical named games were DIFFERENT on competing platforms yet impressive in unique ways. It was like this all the way to PS2/GC/XBOX and should have remained that way onto the PS3/360... but didn't due to skyrocketing development costs.
 
I find it hilarious people equated the GBA to the SNES when the GBA was a hell of a lot more powerful than the best features of both the SNES and Genesis (except in the sound department).

In short - anybody who wants to make a Sonic game that looks and plays just like the old Sonic games can do so these days provided they know enough to put pixels on the screen.

Which made the first engine of the fanmade Sonic 2 HD all the more hilarious.

It's been more than 20 years. LET IT GO.
Damn guys, it has been 20 years. Let it go.

You people will never understand.
 

DonMigs85

Member
The GBA's 16Mhz ARM7 could even handle a port of a Super FX2-enhanced game with minimal compromises. So that's like the base SNES plus an extra 20MHz processor.
 

DonMigs85

Member
As were virtually every system with a cartridge port dating back to the late 70's. The Super NES isn't special in that regard. Every system can do that.
The SNES did have those extra pins which certain enhanced carts used. Did that provide better memory access or extra power or something?
 

cireza

Member
You could always make a SNES Sonic, however it would suffer from slower scrolling and lower resolution.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
The SNES did have those extra pins which certain enhanced carts used. Did that provide better memory access or extra power or something?

They're the same type of pins any other systems had, they just had a special grouping on the SNES. For example, Pins 38 and 62 on the SNES are the left and right audio pins, which are the last two rightmost pins when looking at the cartridge facing the label. Those pins are pins B1 and B3 on the genesis, or the first and third leftmost pins on the back of the cart.

The other pins are just read/write pins and address registers. Again, those exist on other systems in various other pinouts.
 

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
The snes had dma, but it was far more limited. The "blast" in blast processing refers to its remarkable speed increase during vblank. Dma is a process, not all dma controllers are built equal. Further, there slow snes cpu couldn't actually ready enough work for speedy dma to take advantage of.
In other words, just a stupid marketing term.

Has nobody really ever tried to port/recode Sonic for the SNES utilizing all its limitations vs its strengths and made new music that felt the same but took advantage of the SNES' music chip instead? I mean someone ported SMB to the Genesis. The least they can do is return the favor. (And no, that stupid shitty ROM hack where you save Mario does not count.)
 

lazygecko

Member
A barebones SNES vs a barebones genesis really comes down to 2 things - the SNES sound chip could handle samples far better then the genesis and it also output to a larger number of sound channels. The Genesis had better straight up synth but shittier samples, music sounded lower quality but punchier most times and by the mid 90's most developers were using more sampling so the longer the generation went the worse the genesis sounded.

Not really that simple and you got a few things wrong. First, the Genesis does have a larger amount of total sound channels than the SNES does. 6 FM channels and 4 PSG ones amounts to a total of 10, versus the 8 available on the SNES. Though in practice it was mostly 9, because you had to disable one PSG pulse channel to enable additional functionality in the noise channel which was often used for SFX. In addition to that, the one FM channel used for PCM sample playback could also be software mixed as Krejlooc mentioned, so that essentially gave it 1 extra channel for samples, and in a few cases even more (Toy Story uses software mixing to play full 4 channel .mod music during cutscenes). It is true that not every game used all the available channels, in particular a lot of western games seemed content to stick with just the 6 FM channels. But then this also applies to the SNES and not everyone fully utilized all 8 channels.

Second, about the samples. The fact that a lot of games had generally garbled playback was not because of some inherent limitation of the system. The samples themselves were fine, it was rather the programming of the sound drivers that was lacking and resulted in timing issues. It's strange the way this is brought up in discussions when there are plenty of Genesis games, some of them quite popular like Earthworm Jim or anything Tommy Tallarico worked on, which had very clear sample playback and used them quite extensively in Tallarico's case. Matt Furniss is another one who worked on a lot of games and had very good sample quality.

A great demonstration of this is Street Fighter 2 CE which was recently hacked and had its sound driver reprogrammed to fix the sample playback issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iE5GJNkOqs

And it should be mentioned that since SNES relied almost exclusively on samples (save for a noise generator which was sometimes used for SFX, particularly Square relied on it a lot), the 64kb RAM limit was a great bottleneck and caused many problems and limitations of its own. If we take Earthworm Jim as an example once again, one of the reasons the SNES version is missing a bunch of sound effects is because both SFX and music instruments are samples they both occupy a lot of memory. The synthesized Genesis instruments are just a few lines of code, so there is more space available for SFX samples to occupy.
This also makes it very unlikely that the full range of sound effects in Sonic the Hedgehog could be faithfully replicated on the SNES. If you relied on recorded samples for sounds like the cash register on the score tally, or losing rings, or springboards, etc, it would just take up too much memory. Instead you would have to use very short simple oscillator samples, or just make use of the instrument samples as was standard, to design the sound effects as some kind of wavetable synthesis. But this is far from as flexible as doing it with FM.

There was also another particular sound problem on the SNES which is rarely brought up by the general public, and that's the rampant issues with out of tune music. I think this is mostly caused by improperly looped samples. If they loop too fast it's going to shift in frequency after the attack/transient of the sound. SNES samples are stored in a 9-bit ADPCM format in order to compress them, but this also incurs some particular limitations in how samples can be looped (not an expert here but it has something to do with the 16 to 9-bit conversion), so this is likely one of the major culprits causing this when composers couldn't set loop data at any sample point they wanted.
The pre-Super ports of Street Fighter 2 on the SNES are some of the worst examples of this where some of the instruments are clearly more than a quartertone out of tune. Frankly I find it unlistenable.

I've found it kind of ironic that while in general people seem to regard the SNES as sounding better, but the more musically trained you are the less you end up liking it.
 
As others pointed out, a competent developer managed to port Sonic 1 to the GBA, so it should be possible on the SNES as well.
We all know Blast Processing was a marketing buzz word anyways.

Edit: Not sure how parallax scrolling would work though.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Krejlooc is right on the money, I'd say. Well said.

As others have noted, however, I do think additional hardware could have gotten the job done but it would have increased cart costs quite a bit. So I suppose it would have been somewhat possible but definitely not easy or cheap.

I'd argue that Genesis could very easily have replicated Super Mario World, however. Some sacrifices would have had to been made (audio, color selection, transparencies etc) but I think it could have easily existed in a reasonable form without additional hardware.

This is an absolutely ridiculous video. He explains how it's done but goes on to sound impressed. Using a SNES console as a power supply and input method does not mean you're actually playing said game on the SNES.

Edit: Not sure how parallax scrolling would work though.
Why would that be an issue? There might be some performance limitations there but the SNES should be able to duplicate the line scrolling and parallax. It was certainly capable of it. That isn't the thing that would have caused the most performance issues, I think.

I've found it kind of ironic that while in general people seem to regard the SNES as sounding better, but the more musically trained you are the less you end up liking it.
I definitely agree there. It's also a shame the Ricoh RF5c68 didn't see more of a workout in the Sega CD. Adding the extra 8 PCM channels on top of what you already had on the Genesis meant you could do some really fancy stuff with audio. I recall Silpheed actually doing a nice job mixing samples with FM to create its soundtrack, for instance.

When the Genesis is used well it can produce some amazing audio. It's just a shame that, when used poorly, it can come off sounding incredibly harsh.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
As others pointed out, a competent developer managed to port Sonic 1 to the GBA, so it should be possible on the SNES as well.
We all know Blast Processing was a marketing buzz word anyways.

Edit: Not sure how parallax scrolling would work though.

The gba has a cpu suited for sonic-like math that is clocked more than twice as fast as the genesis' cpu. What it can do is no metric of what the snes can do.
 

jay

Member
The real question is why does Arcana run so much worse than Phantasy Star 1? Was Naka just that good?
 

Paz

Member
This thread is an amazing microcosm of how hard it is to try and debunk myths / inform people of interesting things on the internet. Thanks for all the great posts Krejlooc and I'm sorry you have to repeat yourself so often :p
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
SNES had a slow-ass CPU because Nintendo had originally planned for it to be backwards compatible with NES. This plan was scrapped while the slow-ass CPU was kept. Mega Drive's CPU was twice as fast. The end.

both had hardware playfield scrolling and sprites, so the CPU shouldn't have made a massive difference. It might be interesting to do some benchmarking on how quickly the SNES can update the map data with new info, which should be able to give you an idea of the maximum scrolling speed (not counting scooby doo style repeating backgrounds which can scroll at almost any speed because you aren't needing to update new map data)
 

Meicyn

Gold Member
This thread is fascinating as hell. Love all the in-depth explanations about the strengths and weaknesses of all the hardware.
 

Carn82

Member
Anywho, the games already push the limits of hblank, and that's running at 7 mhz. The game uses division and multiplication, which have actual opcodes in the m68k (divu, divs, mulu, muls) - meaning the m68k processor can do actual division and multiplication in hardware in 1 call. The snes cannot do multiplication or division in hardware, it's cpu has no opcodes for those operations. The best you can do is bitwise shifting to divide or multiply by 2, but that has limited use. Anytime the snes does division or multiplication, it's done in software calling a routine which occupies many calls in 1 hblank, with larger numbers taking a logarithmic amount of time longer.

Just out of curiosity, the wiki page of the SNES specs writes that is has 'Hardware multiplication and division'; is that the same thing you are referring to?
 
I'd argue that Genesis could very easily have replicated Super Mario World, however. Some sacrifices would have had to been made (audio, color selection, transparencies etc) but I think it could have easily existed in a reasonable form without additional hardware.
I am actually really impressed with the SMW NES bootleg for what it does.

Also interesting facts about the GBA. I knew it was 32 bit, but didn't realize it was also x2 CPU.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Just out of curiosity, the wiki page of the SNES specs writes that is has 'Hardware multiplication and division'; is that the same thing you are referring to?

That's very misleading - the snes has registers for multiplication and division of the audio processing unit. The cpu itself has no opcode for multiplication or division.

The gba's arm processor has opcodes for multiplication but not division.
 

Carn82

Member
That's very misleading - the snes has registers for multiplication and division of the audio processing unit. The cpu itself has no opcode for multiplication or division.

The gba's arm processor has opcodes for multiplication but not division.

Ah, well that clears it up :)
 

danielcw

Member
- the reason sonic 1, 2 and cd use flickering sprites of splashing water at water lines is because the routine they wrote to change the palette during hblank was very expensive and took several hblanks to do, and thus the sprites hid the change over several lines. By the time sonic 3 rolled around, yuji naka had refined his algorithm enough to do it in 1 hblank, which is why sonic 3 and sonic &.knuckles don't use those sprites.

Anywho, the games already push the limits of hblank, and that's running at 7 mhz.

(I don't know much about this, but I am curious, and hope you can tell me more)

Focusing on the water line/pallette switch. Does the SNES have any graphical capabilities, which could help with that?
Some NES games (Super Mario 3) had a ship that helped to determine the current scanline. I wonder if that experience made Nintendo put such a function in the SNES hardware.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
(I don't know much about this, but I am curious, and hope you can tell me more)

Focusing on the water line/pallette switch. Does the SNES have any graphical capabilities, which could help with that?
Some NES games (Super Mario 3) had a ship that helped to determine the current scanline. I wonder if that experience made Nintendo put such a function in the SNES hardware.

The chip you're talking about is a memory mapper chip, the specific variant you are talking about is basically a timer that is synced to vsync on the tv. It counts to 60 (or 50 in pal territories) then resets. By using the counter, the programmer could count interrupts to know where on the screen to change the drawing routine. Mario 3 uses this to draw the sub window at the bottom of the screen.

The snes can count hblank so it doesn't need an external timer like this.
 

krizzx

Junior Member
both had hardware playfield scrolling and sprites, so the CPU shouldn't have made a massive difference. It might be interesting to do some benchmarking on how quickly the SNES can update the map data with new info, which should be able to give you an idea of the maximum scrolling speed (not counting scooby doo style repeating backgrounds which can scroll at almost any speed because you aren't needing to update new map data)

Like heck it didn't. CPU made all the difference back then. Unless, of course, you just wanted to look at an image on screen that didn't do very much(a.k.a the SNES)

I've played many SNES and Genesis version fo the same game. I've seen many comparison. The Genesis always runs games more significantly fluidly and accurately except for in a few cases of slops ports.

Outlander
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcOjERKYQRM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGX0uGA4d-0

NBA Jam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Utmsm46byE

Sunset Riders
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN80Q08TutA

Processing Power made a HUGE difference back then.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Like heck it didn't. CPU made all the difference back then. Unless, of course, you just wanted to look at an image on screen that didn't do very much(a.k.a the SNES)

I've played many SNES and Genesis version fo the same game. I've seen many comparison. The Genesis always runs games more significantly fluidly and accurately except for in a few cases of slops ports.

Outlander
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcOjERKYQRM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGX0uGA4d-0

NBA Jam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Utmsm46byE

Sunset Riders
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN80Q08TutA

Processing Power made a HUGE difference back then.

Scrolling in both consoles were handled in hardware separate from the cpu. The vdp on the genesis has scroll registers and the ppu on the snes has it's own scroll registers.

That said, the discussion has nothing to do with the ability to scroll.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
I wonder if the Amiga 500/600 could have run Sonic.

Without a doubt. Kid chaos has pretty accurate sonic physics. Edit: in fact, sega had announced an Amiga port of sonic very early on. Obviously no work on that port was ever done, but anything the genesis cpu could do, the Amiga (especially the a1200) could do better.
 

krizzx

Junior Member
Scrolling in both consoles were handled in hardware separate from the cpu. The vdp on the genesis has scroll registers and the ppu on the snes has it's own scroll registers.

That said, the discussion has nothing to do with the ability to scroll.

Before I even address how off that statement was from what I was talking about, if we are going to compare the SNES's ability to run a game to the Genesis, then it very well does have an impact along with anything else the systems do.

The videos I posted showcased differences in animation fluidity and on screen object complexity variation which relies on the a lot more than scroll registers, and that has a lot to do with why Sonic would not run on the SNES at the same scale. The fluidity in the fore/background animations and the character animations would have to be drastically scaled back. Producing that many animations and sprites on screen at one time at that speed is just not going to happen on the stock SNES hardware at that frame rate.
 
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