brokenbeans
Banned
Yeah I'm the sane those bloody card games, wwe, nba etc I just can't play them anymore.
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Help, my child is addicted to freemium shovelware
- Thread starter Deactivision
- Start date
Yeah I'm the sane those bloody card games, wwe, nba etc I just can't play them anymore.
Velurian
Member
Just let him play. People have different tastes and also, their taste evolve over time.
To start with RollerCoaster tycoon is certainly not a bad thing. Its a great game with plenty of imagination and management involved for a 9 year old..
You can introduce him to some of you own stuff as well and just tell him what you like about it, but dont be agressive with its or you ll put him off..
To start with RollerCoaster tycoon is certainly not a bad thing. Its a great game with plenty of imagination and management involved for a 9 year old..
You can introduce him to some of you own stuff as well and just tell him what you like about it, but dont be agressive with its or you ll put him off..
Weltall Zero
Member
I'm afraid your son's reasoning is rock solid. I understand your too but for my mother, any and and all of gaming was a colossal waste of time that gives you myopia (and at her mid 60s, still is).
What you have to do is hook him up on better games. Going back to co-op games could be a great way. If he doesn't want to even play co-op with you, then you might have a point of contention there (but don't expect him to like it if you force him).
He's about to enter his teenage years where he'll do the opposite of what you want / like, so watch out for that. Consider how bad playing F2P games is, in the grand scheme of things, compared to going out to drink until morning, etc. (I'm sure this sounds alien to you now, but it's not that far away).
What you have to do is hook him up on better games. Going back to co-op games could be a great way. If he doesn't want to even play co-op with you, then you might have a point of contention there (but don't expect him to like it if you force him).
He's about to enter his teenage years where he'll do the opposite of what you want / like, so watch out for that. Consider how bad playing F2P games is, in the grand scheme of things, compared to going out to drink until morning, etc. (I'm sure this sounds alien to you now, but it's not that far away).
I'd ban my kid from playing F2P games. They're just like casinos - built to keep you looped in and prey on how minds work. Kids aren't equipped for that and fall into it way too easily. Even the fucking actual arcades have done this, they basically have "My First Casino" with chance games that give out more tickets to the kids versus the hard to maintain and repair actual games.
More_Badass
Member
Do you even realize what your posts sound like? For my Junior Psych Seminar, I did a literary review on the research regarding video games and violence, and it was so blatantly apparent that much of the early research was rife with bias and done with the goal of proving that bias rather than actually studying the hypothesis objectively.
As someone who's an avid IOS gamer, it really is kind of disappointing to see such generalizations
What does that have to do with addictive behavior and exploitative game design?
More_Badass
Member
Demonizing and generalizing a large subsection of games, applying broad generalizations when there are myriad examples to the contary, assuming the negative rather than the positive (must be addicted rather than having fun), etc.
The thinking mirrors how a lot of research in the 80s and 90s would explore violent games, compared to how current research approaches the topic
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
OP if it eases your conscience, many people working on this "freemium shovelware" put tons of their heart and soul and a lot of work into their games as well.
I'm careful too. I enjoy walking the tightrope, and I've fallen into short term obsession a few times with games.
Frank Lantz, the creator of drop7, said (paraphrasing from memory) his game was like homebrew neuroscience, a little digital drug used to run experiments. And when you let a game seduce you, you can come out the other side a more self aware person. So maybe there is something to be gained via flirtations with addiction. That is of course, assuming one is a stable, adjusted adult with a social support network.
This. It's not like he is spending a lot of money on these games, which is what I expected from the thread title. He is just playing what he and his friends like.
Sure you can make him the "cool" kid who likes some strange game only old people play.
GiantEnemyCrab
Banned
But we know why these games are being made. Their creators will readily admit to designing the games to exploit human psychological weaknesses. It is not at all the same situation as something like Super Mario Bros., which was designed simply to be entertaining.
Don't tell me, as an iOS gamer, you can't see the difference in design approach between F2P games and games like Monument Valley or Trainyard.
This is a much better analogy. Only a subset of games are designed explicitly to trap the player in a psychological feedback loop. A parent has no duty to provide a child with those games. This is completely different from saying, "I don't like Halo, so you're not playing it," which is obviously a bad strategy.
Haven't seen a good demonizing research project in a while.
Do you think kids should be allowed access to video poker terminals?
More_Badass
Member
We're not talking F2P versus MV or Badlands or something. Yes, there is no doubt that some F2P games are designed to prey and be addictive. But to paint the entire section of games as such is nonsense and there have been numerous comments in the thread that do that. Even the attitude of "Better watch your credit cards, your son might start sneaking to use your credit cards" is just really silly. In this specific scenario, IAP doesn't even apply because he's not and cant buy IAP, so the enjoyment comes purely down to having fun with friends and strategy (using fast-spawning troops, etc.)
Generalizing F2P games as comparable to video poker terminals. Yes, there are some that act like that. And then there are dozens and dozens of games that don't.
you are certainly old school.
my little sister plays this shitty games too but as long as she is not spending all her pocket money on this crap,i think iam fine.
she maintains dozens of this shit games, but its her free time and her money.
my parents wont let her spend a dime on those games, so this is good.
let your kid just play the games he wants, he will eventually grow out of them.
my little sister plays this shitty games too but as long as she is not spending all her pocket money on this crap,i think iam fine.
she maintains dozens of this shit games, but its her free time and her money.
my parents wont let her spend a dime on those games, so this is good.
let your kid just play the games he wants, he will eventually grow out of them.
autoduelist
Member
And clearly, the OP and everyone discussing the issues are talking about the ones that do, not every single last IOS game.
We aren't generalizing -- we're being very specific as to which games we're talking about. You're the one generalizing our criticisms and applying it to 'all IOS games' to make our argument seem overly broad.
Plenty of IOS games don't even have IAP. Those aren't being discussed. We're discussing the ones with intentionally designed addiction loops that feed upon various psychological triggers (ocd, addiction, etc).
So, how would you go about curating a kids iOS gaming? What kind of limits would you place? Do you think kids can become addicted to games? There are some big issues here, and it is much better to err on the side of caution, IMO. If a parent is worried about addiction, what is the downside to no iOS gaming?
Glass Shark
Banned
Let him play a match of Dota and he'll realize all other games are worthless in comparison.
But seriously, you won't be able to force him to dislike something he likes and you won't be able to force him to like something he doesn't want to like. The best you can do is expose him to all different kinds of games by asking him to play with you. Maybe something will stick. As much as I loathe the types of games you're talking about, there's nothing really harmful about it as long as it's within his screen time and he's using his own allowance on it.
But seriously, you won't be able to force him to dislike something he likes and you won't be able to force him to like something he doesn't want to like. The best you can do is expose him to all different kinds of games by asking him to play with you. Maybe something will stick. As much as I loathe the types of games you're talking about, there's nothing really harmful about it as long as it's within his screen time and he's using his own allowance on it.
GiantEnemyCrab
Banned
I'd like to go a step further and say that even games with IAP can be fine. I can go write an iOS game this afternoon and put IAP in there, and if I'm not trying to trick or addict players, it may be a worthwhile game (though it probably still wouldn't be, for an afternoon's effort with no forethought).
The problem is predatory game design. It's just a hell of a lot easier to say "F2P games" than try to give examples in every post, since the majority of F2P games employ predatory designs. Of course some don't, but it's the parent's job to know what the child is playing and distinguish.
I wouldn't fault a parent (especially a non-gamer) for generalizing, though. It's clearly difficult, even for many gamers, to recognize predatory game design. People can't spend all day analyzing the games their kids play.
Holy Order Sol
Member
make him play REmake instead
teach him to shoot at kerosene
teach him to shoot at kerosene
Stealth_Cobra
Member
Well, kids don't necessarily have the critical thinking required to notice addictive patterns in games, to quantify the enjoyment they get out of playing said games and they fall easy to peer pressure , all of my friends play it kind of stuff... Meaning they will play anything that's remotely playable if their friends say it's cool and if it hooks them on addictive patterns.
I think you can probably limit his game time, it's something parents should do nowadays imho... Unless you want your kid to end up an addicted no-lifer like me down the road. Yes it sucks for the kid, but gaming is addictive and fremium pay or wait games are on the worse part of the game addiction spectrum... They are designed to hook you up and to be constantly at the back of your brain, tempting you to spend real money at some point. People complain about DLC , season passes and pre-order bonuses, but these pay or wait games are basically bare bone features from other quality games extracted and turned into an addictive cash grab.
I also second the idea of playing different games with him, games that are less based on addictive game mechanics. Then again, games are getting more and more rooted into OCD addiction loops, so finding games that don't try to suck you in is hard as hell nowadays. The fact you limit his access to violent and adult games would make this even harder though... As he'll be left with a very small amount of family friendly games he can play , games that aren't necessarily popular with his friends.
I guess communication and enforcing a couple of rules can work, especially if you try to introduce him to games you think have more to offer than these freemium time wasters.
I think you can probably limit his game time, it's something parents should do nowadays imho... Unless you want your kid to end up an addicted no-lifer like me down the road. Yes it sucks for the kid, but gaming is addictive and fremium pay or wait games are on the worse part of the game addiction spectrum... They are designed to hook you up and to be constantly at the back of your brain, tempting you to spend real money at some point. People complain about DLC , season passes and pre-order bonuses, but these pay or wait games are basically bare bone features from other quality games extracted and turned into an addictive cash grab.
I also second the idea of playing different games with him, games that are less based on addictive game mechanics. Then again, games are getting more and more rooted into OCD addiction loops, so finding games that don't try to suck you in is hard as hell nowadays. The fact you limit his access to violent and adult games would make this even harder though... As he'll be left with a very small amount of family friendly games he can play , games that aren't necessarily popular with his friends.
I guess communication and enforcing a couple of rules can work, especially if you try to introduce him to games you think have more to offer than these freemium time wasters.
We forget arcade games were built to rake in the most amount of money in the shortest amount of time. With free-to-play, you can avoid paying a dime.
Free to play titles are not all bad. A lot of them let players build things as opposed to destroying them. As long as parents monitor or restrict purchases and limit play time, I see no problem with free to play titles.
If you want to steer your child in another direction, maybe try the Kairosoft titles for Ipad. They make titles such as Game Dev Story where you build things, and they're really well done. They cost, I think, $5 and there are no in-game purchases.
More_Badass
Member
Defintely kids can become addicted to games. My brother can't help to play Dying Light and NBA 2K15 when his friends are online, or when he gets i from school, or at night when he should getting ready to go to sleep
And well, a parent could always have the kid play paid IOS games. The answer isn't no games. Or perhaps free games with only ads or no IAP at all or full game unlocks. Even games like Quadblast which do have currency IAP are designed to be perfectly playable.
Gnome Scat
Member
Take his phone away and give him a GameCube.
MrMephistoX
Member
Considering how many of my hard earned quarters I sunk into arcade games in my youth I don't really see a problem; same compulsion loop on mobile only cheaper I guess?
Speaking of which I'm kinda surprised no one has produced something old school like Final Fint f2p that's entirely skill based with continues priced at $0.25.
Speaking of which I'm kinda surprised no one has produced something old school like Final Fint f2p that's entirely skill based with continues priced at $0.25.
A Skinner box is not a game.
Teach your child about basic psychology, about what a Skinner box is. Show them the SP episode about it. Make them read a few articles about "monetization strategies."
Finally, sit down and play one of the games and teach them to spot the Skinner box elements.
Even if your child doesn't get it right away, you'll plant the seeds of critical thought, and once the fun illusion is gone the addiction will break.
Teach your child about basic psychology, about what a Skinner box is. Show them the SP episode about it. Make them read a few articles about "monetization strategies."
Finally, sit down and play one of the games and teach them to spot the Skinner box elements.
Even if your child doesn't get it right away, you'll plant the seeds of critical thought, and once the fun illusion is gone the addiction will break.
BigBadShamoo
Banned
Damn a concerned parent wanting to give there kids quality gaming experiences but the kid only wants games that are far from what associate with AAA titles. I feel your pain. Sometimes all you can do is recomend. They'll learn eventually, but hey maybe him going through all these f2p games will allow him to find a gem. If he does please share cuz I use my phone more than any other device I own and gaming is the last thing I ever want to do on it.
More_Badass
Member
This is a good thread, I add to it regularly
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=921676
XCOM and KOTOR play well on touch. And if you have a tablet, the iPad version of FTL feels like the definite version, better than on PC
Also we try to highlight the best releases in the main IOS threads (February)
Vigilant Walrus
Member
If you expose him to great strategy games on PC, like the new rollercoaster tychoon that will hopefully be released this year, or the new total war Atilla (then he can learn about history too), he will quickly see how lame and insignificant those games are.
BigWeather
Member
My argument against games like that is that they are designed to offer an increasingly degraded experience over time (absent an injection of cash, conveniently). Ask your son if he is having as much fun playing Clash of Clans or any of the other F2P games now as he did when he first began. Chances are he is not. That's your opening.
Like it has been taken up in several posts by now, I should have been more specific, but I didn't mean to generalize. My experience however is that there is a vast majority of F2P games that uses a predatory game design which I am personally completely against. If there comes a F2P game with fair design, I like to hold them up as ideal, like TF2, DOTA 2 and Smite (PC titles in this case but they are always the first that comes to mind on how it is done great). On the other hand, I do not pull to criticize the F2P industry and be completely skeptical for a market that treats its consumers like "whales".
ZackieChan
Member
Have you ever even played any of these games?
As a game developer, it's really fucking easy to know why game economies are set up the way they are.. to keep you coming back.
lol generalization, it's intentional design
C'mon son, this is NeoGAF.
Yes, I've played a number of them. The exceptions can be counted in on your fingers, but the giant, overwhelming majority use a combination of factors to get you to pay, and don't give you anything tangible, so you end up spending money simply to get to the next paywall.
Defenders of f2p sound like the Momty Python "Spam" skit: "Oh, there's -f2p game-, it's not got much spam in it!" Ignoring the patron's insistence that they don't like spam.
It's like everyone has collectively forgotten that we invented game consoles to get away from quarter-munchers, and have now decided to welcome our new f2p overlords. Well I for one do not welcome them, and I fully support educating our kids about the shady tactics these games use.
Yes, sit your 9 year old down with an episode of South Park, that sounds appropriate.
And then deconstruct the basics of most games, so that he will never enjoy playing anything ever again.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
That's where suggestions come from. Parents who are able to suggest other games to their kids can slowly make them become interested in others. I wouldn't get into Megaman without my cousins telling me to play them for instance, or hell even fighting games back in the arcades.
Honestly showing kids to play without the thorough need of social connectivity is a great way to introduce them the concept of being able to play single player and appreciate a game as a game. And I figured a kid is the right age for it.
I wouldn't let my child play exploitative F2P games either OP, not at 9 years old when I'm not sure what the long term effects of that might be. I simply wouldn't be comfortable with it. You just gotta put your foot down. Yeah, he might resent you for it, but you're his parent first and foremost, and there is nothing to indicate you aren't providing him with abundance and care.
Wolf Akela
Member
You sound like a terrible parent, or some kind of obnoxious elitist gamer. Let him play what he wants. They're all age appropriate and doesn't sound like he has a gem addiction. In fact, even if not for a 9 year old I'm impressed he can juggle all those games. I casually play 2 of the games you mention. I'll tell you it's not easy managing all those timers especially with the attention span of a kid.
All games are time wasters anyway. A lot of classics that people adore have varying degrees of application of the skinner box model. Treasure chests, bosses, item drops, setpieces... We all keep playing for one of those kinds of rewards.
All games are time wasters anyway. A lot of classics that people adore have varying degrees of application of the skinner box model. Treasure chests, bosses, item drops, setpieces... We all keep playing for one of those kinds of rewards.
A terrible parent for wanting to make sure their kid isn't sucked into something they don't want them to be?
Terrible parents don't feed their kids and buy beer for a party instead. Terrible parents spend money on a new TV instead of new shoes for their kids. Choosing what games your kids is allowed to play isn't terrible parenting.
Wolf Akela
Member
Do you also dictate what careers your kids will take?
Like others mentioned, expose your kids to different options. Teach him stuff about all of them. If you've done that and he still prefers certain games, that's his decision, not yours. Don't try living your kid's life as your own. Just guide him. They're just games. He has his own tastes. Don't let them develop actual bad habits like overspending and too much playing.
cantona222
Member
I agree. Let him play what he wants as long as he is within the time limit you set. I understand how you want him to have similar tastes to you in order to have quality time together, but unfortunately this is not the case for now.
Keep in mind that the main purpose of video games is entertainment. Learning something else on the side is a missable side quest
Keep in mind that the main purpose of video games is entertainment. Learning something else on the side is a missable side quest
More_Badass
Member
According the OP, he's only limited to an hour and can't make purchases. Some posters seem to gloss over that fact. The OP already has dealt with the time and spending issues
This can be said about almost all games, so if that is why you should not play shovelware games, then you should not be playing games anyway.
World of warcraft (and just about any other MMO): Kill/do Quest = reward (better gear(money) = Better Kill/better Quest = reward (Better gear/money)
Souls game: Kill = Reward (gear, higher skill, progression, bragging rights etc) = Bigger kill = (gear, higher skill, progression, bragging rights etc)
City builder: Small Well functioning city = Reward (More money, Nice city) = Bigger City = Reward (more money, bigger city/bragging rights) = Even bigger city. etc. etc
RPG's: Kill/do Quest = Reward (gear, level, money, skill and story progression) = more quest's/better kill's = Reward (gear, level, money, skill and story progression)
FPS: Kill = Reward (higher rank, new gear/weapons, higher skill, higher ranking, story progression)
And it goes on and on, but why is this a bad thing? Being rewarded for effort is a good thing, and shovelware games do teach skills like
- Time managment
- Value of working with friends (faster progression)
- That not all rewards are instant (unless you pay for them)
There are probably others, but I don't enjoy games like farmville and the like so I don't know. And I do not know what kind of skill is required (if any) but most videogame skill's are not transferable to the real world anyway, except the social skill's (or lack thereof sometimes)
Edit: There is a talk on TED on why World of Warcraft is the most addictive box opening simulator, and how you can use stats from WOW in order to see what kind of reward percentages are ideal in order to get someone to repeat the previous behaviour.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Choosing what games your games is allowed to play based on your personal preferences onto your kids is terrible parenting. We are not talking about restricting kids from violent games here. We are talking about restricting kids from games you personally don't like.
Mendax
Member
freemium shovelware =/= games someone personally doesnt like. It's designed to be addictive, designed to make you want to spend money and designed to keep you coming back. It's objectively BAD. So kids should be kept away from it.
people saying that are probably young themselves, because when you're young you WANT your parents to leave you alone haha.
Guidance on things that matter, sure. Not on video games.