Then you're missing the point. The problem with this is that the viability of Bethesda titles (on PC) relies far more on enthusiast modding than pretty much any major gaming franchise.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods
- Thread starter Sendou
- Start date
- Status
Then you're missing the point. The problem with this is that the viability of Bethesda titles (on PC) relies far more on enthusiast modding than pretty much any major gaming franchise.
ambar_hitman
Member
Someone said these are 3rd party DLCs. Actually these will be 3rd party DLCs without any QA/Testing, with a very chance of them being broken with next game update.
StrangeTaco
Member
That along with the fact any refunds are funneled back into the steam wallet are my biggest concerns with this system. Valve/Bethesda have literally no accountability so the customer is the only one who takes the hit here.
Also considering how awful steam support is now with taking care of refunds I can't imagine it going any better with this mod system in place.
When your work has been put into an activity that has until very recently been solely a hobby I would tend to disagree. That goes for most hobbies not just modding.
yes i am, i am entitled to compensation in exchange for my work.
With assets created by others who have expressly said not to use their content in paid mods. Lookin' at you, Wet N Cold.
superseohyun
Member
well i am pretty sure majority of the posters here didnt use your mod so no need to get this hostile.
crazyrabbits
Banned
And yet, from everything you've said so far in this topic, you've done very little (if anything) to accomplish that goal.
Coonce
Member
This is my biggest concern. Obviously Skyrim won't get any large game changing patches soon, but what about future game titles for any game?
Oh no the mod I paid 4 bucks for 2 days ago broke, better go "post on the mod page nicely" ?
It's just Wet now, they removed heat detection from the mod
because they didn't have permission to use it to sell a mod
I'm sure the $3 cut Valve and Bethesda/Zenimax took will motivate them to encourage the mod author to update their mod.
Mavromatis
Member
I don't want to sound harsh but as the free market you seem to protect shows you aren't, you just get what others will see fit.
Guess I did the right thing by not buying v2. Must get Nexus version.
i derive my salary directly from the work i do.
This would be the most accurate description and would preserve what the definition of mods are versus DLC.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Noooooo thank you.
Not an altogether unwelcome concept in the empirical sense, but really lacking in oversight in regards to the above, especially if the game itself becomes unplayable, i.e. you have to update it, and the mod's stopped being suported.
Not based on the culturally accepted norms of game modding, you're not entitled to shit. It's an enthusiast, derivative work based on someone else's product.
You have a new avenue through which to seek compensation, but you're not entitled to it. You're the one who established the value of your work as free when you entered into modding. Them's the breaks.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
While I don't mean to question your beliefs and fully understand your point about compensation...
...the belief that "something must be good because it is paid" is so naive.
no, if someone doesnt compensate me to the degree i see fit, they flat out dont get my work.
If you can only discuss with things like the bold part, then I'm sorry, but I won't discuss anymore. It is baffling how you think that anyone in this forum only plays games because of the amount of money that is spent. I mean, really? What's the point of doing that?
Besides, did you realise that this move was started by Bethesda? Yes, the studio responsible for one of your favourite game franchises wanted this. And if it didn't happen with Steam Workshop, then they would do it by themselves, with their own system. And if that didn't happen at all, maybe they would drop mod support.
Just ignore Bethesda for a moment. Don't you think some modders deserve to be paid? If your answer starts with yes, then I'm glad that you understand that hard work and time that could be spent elsewhere. Maybe you think that donations would be enough. Except that if we take statistics of how many users donate, we would understand how much of a problem this is.
If your answer starts with no, then put yourself in their situation. Would you work for free? And please don't talk about how this isn't work. Because it is. And work can be done with passion. I know because I do it.
And I work with games. And my next game will be free for users. Not free to play. Users will never pay for anything, not even additional content. Our way of monetising will be different. Recently, I've played another game for free. Released on Steam, by the way. With no paid content. And by the way, it was made on the spare time of the developer. My point in this paragraph? Just as we can see a bunch of free (and good) games out there, free mods will not disappear. Because mods are still valuable experiences if they ever want to work in the games industry.
Just take a moment and read the stories by modders that defended this choice. They can only do it for so long. And if you're not paying them, then there's no obligation to do anything. They have their personal lives. They have their hobbies too. But as soon as you pay them, then they have a duty to deliver on their promises. If you don't like a mod, just ask for a refund within the 24 hour period.
OK, going back to Bethesda. Will they profit from this? Yes, obviously. At the same time, have you noticed a certain trend within AAA companies to not support mods in their engines? Why do you think that happens? It's not simply an evil thing. Mods can help people buy games. Except that's not enough to make up for their losses. To be clear, I am a big supporter of free DLC (similar to what CD Projekt is doing, actually). But I also realise that AAA games nowadays cost so much that, if they don't turn a profit, beloved studios will close, people will get fired and franchises we used to love won't have new games anymore.
Yes, I realise that Fallout or Elder Scrolls are not at risk at the moment, but what I am saying is that, as costs get higher, moves like this one are inevitable. And that is very different from, say, streamers and YouTubers having to pay companies a share of what they do. That I don't agree with. But they are not working inside the game.
If you want to discuss this respectfully, then I'll be here (until I have to go sleep, because it's already late). If not, then you can ignore my post and move on. No problem.
crazyrabbits
Banned
But there you are. Just another spoke on the wheel.
Like I said earlier in this thread, that wheel is just going to keep on turning. Whatever you've done, someone else is going to come along and make something better, faster and (probably) cheaper or free for the same or better end result. That was the point I was trying to make - the Steam Workshop has no apparent benefits for anyone, it hasn't shown any value as of yet, and I'm hard-pressed to think of a way in which it benefits content creators that isn't already being done better or more ethically by other sites like Nexus.
Then why was your mod free at all?
Your response was "if you deem it not worth your money, don't buy it". That's why I said that. I care about it beyond whether it's "worth my money" or not. I care about the world, the lore, the history of the series, the community around it.
Of COURSE it was started by Bethesda, it wouldn't happen without them. The funny thing is you think I should be okay with this because Bethesda is okay with this. I've got news for you: the Elder Scrolls series is what it is because of the modders, not because of Bethesda. They put out buggy, unfinished product and profit for years because enthusiast modders draw people into purchasing the game. This development further incentivizes them to put out unfinished product, because they stand to make money off modders fixing their buggy ass games.
I have no problem with modders getting paid. I have a problem with people acting like this is the first avenue modders have to get paid. Beyond the donation thing you mentioned, there's nothing stopping modders from hosting their mods on their own websites behind a paywall.
I wouldn't work for free. But modding a game isn't work. Getting paid to mod a game is called game development.
Free mods will not disappear UNLESS the platform the game is played on prohibits them. That's the ENTIRE problem with this situation.
I find this sentiment mindblowing - we don't have to do QA as long as we offer you a 24 hour window to get a refund? Really? So you're going to put the onus on the customer to go through the trouble of getting a refund instead of having the incentive to make it work properly in the first place? Nah, I can't cosign that.
1) Those AAA companies tend to release games that don't require mods to function properly
2) Maybe they should scale back the depth of these games if they just can't possibly finish the game properly with that time frame and budget
3) If the mods sell games, wouldn't it make more sense to encourage people to use mods rather than discourage them like they are in this model?
I give respect when it is earned I just have a problem with being pro-consumer being painted as entitled.
Well, it depends, the guy only saw $1 of that money, and if supporting the mod is the only thing he does he needs to have sold to 100 people to get $100. If he wants to make a frugal living off of this, he needs to get, say, somewhere on the order of 3,000 downloads a month for a $4 mod. A tall order, but not impossible, I suppose. So yeah, the modder, in all likelihood, won't take time off his day job to fix your problem with the game changing patch.
Doubtlessly, a few modders will make decent bank from this, given that they've accumulated a few million downloads from certain mods. Of course, it should be noted that these millions of downloads were from mods that were free, a price for which the average human being would have no inhibition. For the vast majority, I would think they would make more money off a Donate button.
Exactly.
A ton of modders don't look at their creations as work, they look at their creations as a hobby or something to help them gain experience with coding and design. As of now this system is akin to being part of a open contract to make DLC on your own free time, except you don't get a base salary.
We should listen to Krejlooc, guys. He's such a smart guy he has to "hide his intelligence" from dates. (and yet can't even spell braggart right) He feels "supremely confident because (narcissism aside) I usually feel like the smartest person in the room".
I apologize for the ad hominem, but if anyone here feels entitled, it's him.
I apologize for the ad hominem, but if anyone here feels entitled, it's him.
Dalibor_San
Member
Yes you are entitled to compensation for your work, however users are entitled to voice praise or negativity towards your mod or others.
I find the weakest argument that can be used to defend some practises that are iffy is "Don't buy it,vote with your wallet",newsflash it doesn't work that way.
There will always be whales or misinformed people, the only way to let a modder or company know that you disagree with their decision to is to voice a concern. (Like Xbox One DRM)
In this regard I think it has potential but it is currently being abused, I think voicing our concerns and it being spread to media sites, it can send a message to modders that this is a bad way to go.Maybe they should put some effort and not clog the store with re-used mods or broken ones is what the message should be.
StrangeTaco
Member
They are one and the same. You released it to the community which means it will also be accessed by consumers as well, or other developers will take your work and incorporate it in their work which is going to be accessible by consumers.
I was just thinking this lol. Should become one of their PR points.
You put it on the internet without a paywall. You released it to consumers.
There's no need for this.
StrangeTaco
Member
Disagreeing with someones opinions is fine, attacking them personally is not.
Goddamn, this is the best line in the thread.
Anyone emailed them yet? Better let them know to jump on this to get more GOG PR!
Looking into previous posts and making fun of them when they're not even remotely related to the subject being discussed is not cool at all.
Everyone has a right to voice their concerns, as long as they are valid and not offensive. Your example of the DRM is perfect, actually. But it was a consequence of amazing pre-order numbers for the PS4 and extremely low for the Xbox One. People were voicing their concerns? Yes, but also voting with their wallets.
I tweeted earlier that it's players' responsibility to dictate how this works. If a paid mod doesn't sell as expected, it will change. Hopefully the modder will be smart enough to listen to the feedback. If you think that good mods deserve to be paid, then great. So let's help the market understand it that way. Just as it happened with the Xbox One.
The difference is that the PS4 provided an alternative to the XBOX One. The only way to play Skyrim on PC (legit) is through Steam.
Probably just starting their day now, it's not even 8 AM yet in Poland. Go for it, I say.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
That 24 hour refund period is going to frustrate the hell out of many users.
Mods (or certain combinations of mods) that break Skyrim can take several hours for the problems to actually occur.
Instability is one thing, but there are certain cocktails that can ruin game-saves. Even when the mod is uninstalled, the save is likely too far gone, due to the mounds of bad scripts and errors that it has accumulated over many hours of play.
In short, Skyrim's paid-workshop is going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets any better.
Mods (or certain combinations of mods) that break Skyrim can take several hours for the problems to actually occur.
Instability is one thing, but there are certain cocktails that can ruin game-saves. Even when the mod is uninstalled, the save is likely too far gone, due to the mounds of bad scripts and errors that it has accumulated over many hours of play.
In short, Skyrim's paid-workshop is going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets any better.
Dalibor_San
Member
Which I agree with, the best way to send a message is to voice our concerns and I agree that when voicing our concerns, do it in a manner that does not sound childish.
Also please remember that the only reason PS4 was getting more pre-orders was precisely because Microsoft had the DRM revealed as soon as they unveiled the XBOX One, naturally gamers supported the console that had none of it.(Remember Online-Only for XBOX One?)
I just think it is unfair to be told to vote with my wallet when it is best to share my concern on sites like Neogaf as well as on Steam forums, the more exposure to a bad decision the better.
Close the thread, folks. This is the bottom line, right here.
LurkerPrime
Member
Other companies almost make it too easy.
Though, this raises an interesting point: how will monetised mods work for non-Steam versions? I can't imagine any of them want people copying or backing up the files, so transferring it would be a no-go. I also don't believe "add a non-Steam game" would work.
Man, I'm getting flashbacks to Starcraft 2 and its disasterous flirtration with paid custom content. RIP SC UMS community, I miss you even today.
Modular development. Or Modev, if you will.
It's going to be even better when you can't determine which mod is the one that's breaking your game until after the 24-hour period is past.
You mean console or pirated versions?
If you feel this way, there's quite a problem here. Depending on the work you do is where you get compensation, and modding as compensation is akin to making and asking money for work via fanfiction: effort is involved, sure, but you're dealing in a domain where people, more often than not, will not pay for such services if a paywall is introduced. You've talked about the free market, but it will very likely be said free market that will more than likely not compensate you for money for mods, especially as a living vocation. I really hope that's not where you wish to go with things, for very few have benefitted down that path.
There's almost a parody to your views, for it's the market of "prove your worth" of capitalism that makes your ideas on compensation a slippery slope. This is a system where you are not promised money for simply putting your time into things, because at root there is a systemic situation of monetary inequality. As such, it makes most of your assumptions and projections very idealistic, and if anything, many users who have called you out are not doing so because your work is "worthless", but because they perhaps see the big problem of it being an insoluble situation to make paper and metal off of, and that is a far bigger topic to talk about than paid modifications to video games.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Didn't previous posts have people being angry about modding not being called professional work?
Money, money, money.
If you want to reward one modder (or a team) just ask them for a donation link, it's just dirty profit over their work considering the extremely low percentage.
Annnnd of course it's an open door for people to sell shitty things to credulous guys EXACTLY LIKE Early Access. Steam going more and more in the wrong way.
If you want to reward one modder (or a team) just ask them for a donation link, it's just dirty profit over their work considering the extremely low percentage.
Annnnd of course it's an open door for people to sell shitty things to credulous guys EXACTLY LIKE Early Access. Steam going more and more in the wrong way.
LurkerPrime
Member
There are other storefronts and platforms than just Steam or consoles, you know. They're not nearly as popular, but they still exist.
banefirelord
Banned
Someone will inevitably correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought all physical Skyrim copies need to activate with Steamworks.
Not for Skyrim.
LurkerPrime
Member
Oh, that's a fair point. I guess I meant future titles using this, but perhaps they'd all be Steamworks anyways so it's a moot point.
I know people personally that pay rent with fan art and fanfic commissions. Vast majority of companies turn a blind eye to it even though they could stop it, because 99% of the time it's person to person transaction, not someone uploading a fic or art and running ads on it. Yet another community that has both free and paid content and has no problem with both existing.
edit: they do original art as their main work, but commissions get you some high dollars for single pieces.
Well, that was a problem before, wasn't it? It happened with Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas (to the point they screwed Obsidian up) and Skyrim. I honestly don't think they would change anything. If modders charge for fixing a game, they you should voice your concerns. I think charging for these kind of mods isn't fair at all. But we, as consumers, will dictate that. I only support paying mods when the modders actually create content.
Well, like I said, if it didn't work with Steam Workshop, Bethesda would create their own system, which could be even more restrictive. Hard to tell.
Modding is work and of course it is a part of game development. Why do you think a lot of developers currently working on the industry started as modders? It was part of their portfolio.
And I don't see any prohibition on Steam Workshop.
Not talking about QA, I talked about experimenting mods and not liking them for personal reasons.
Ask players from Dragon Age and Battlefield if they like the idea of Frostbite not supporting mods? And about the second one, they're making the products they want to make and they are selling in a bad state because people continue to buy them. Not a modding-friendly franchise, but do you think that Ubisoft would continue to ship unfinished Assassin's Creed games if they didn't sell as much as they do? And as for the third one, I don't think it discourages. The market will dictate it.
But it isn't just one or another. Do both.
OmegaDL50
Member
I think if a mod author has a right to charge for his work. Then he should put the work into making the mod that is worthwhile enough to be paid for in the first place.
This means actually taking the time to make sure a PAID mod has no conflicts or potential bugs that could break a quest line or do something that detracts from the experience some how.
I'm sure it's been said already in this topic, but I think the end users to download a ton of mods like myself are going to have a much more critical and scrutinizing gaze on mods that have a price tag attached to them.
I'd think the community is willing to ignore minor issues on free mods, but the second a price is associated with the product, it's now a vested interest in the end user to make sure the mod they are buying is going to actually be worth what they pay.
Thankfully the refund prevents some unscrupulous individual from charging for a mod does not work as intended and trying to walk away with some easy money.
I am all for paid mods, as long as the quality of the mod increases as a result being a paid mod in the first place.
This means actually taking the time to make sure a PAID mod has no conflicts or potential bugs that could break a quest line or do something that detracts from the experience some how.
I'm sure it's been said already in this topic, but I think the end users to download a ton of mods like myself are going to have a much more critical and scrutinizing gaze on mods that have a price tag attached to them.
I'd think the community is willing to ignore minor issues on free mods, but the second a price is associated with the product, it's now a vested interest in the end user to make sure the mod they are buying is going to actually be worth what they pay.
Thankfully the refund prevents some unscrupulous individual from charging for a mod does not work as intended and trying to walk away with some easy money.
I am all for paid mods, as long as the quality of the mod increases as a result being a paid mod in the first place.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked