They aren't though. If they did, you could be outraged.
Previously, they were preventing people from selling mods, period. Now they are allowing people to sell mods, in addition to everything they could do before, for a (yes, meagre) 25% cut.
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Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods
- Thread starter Sendou
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Previously, they were preventing people from selling mods, period. Now they are allowing people to sell mods, in addition to everything they could do before, for a (yes, meagre) 25% cut.
You're free to mod the game, but it's pretty pointless if the platform the game runs on prevents it from being used.
Bethsoft games aren't the only ones you can mod, but they're one of the very few that require mods to actually function properly.
Can you clarify the last sentence? What do you mean by compensated mods?
They aren't YET. They have a strong interest in pushing profits (see DOTA and TF2 microtransactions) and now have a financial incentive to cut off all mods other than the ones on the Workshop (i.e. the ones people would have to pay them for). I'm going to fucking bring it up now, rather than complaining after it happens.
the original question , of course:
why would a compensated mod no longer be about modding?
Because mods are made (and used) with the expectation that it is the fruit of a hobby. Mods are not held to the same compatibility/QA/content amount/etc. standards that, say, official DLC is.
This arrangement allows Valve and Bethesda to profit off this like DLC without having to ensure that the product meets the same standard.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
haha, lol, what a disaster.
Yep, and we all know how incredible Valve is in this department.
so your problem was that bethsoft/valve was taking a cut from modder's work without doing anything to earn it and possibly tainting the spirit of modding, and not about the possibility of the actual modder being compensated for their work?
No, my problem is that Valve now has the ability to kill all mods except those that we pay them for, and they have no incentive to make sure those mods are worth the money. In addition, Bethesda has even less incentive to actually release their games in a finished, fully functional state, because they can now profit off others fixing their bugs for them.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
I think it's a problem generally. Everything that is hobby based gets destroyed once you bring money into it.
Could be even worse in theory ... mod packages being encrypted and decrypted when you use them only through Steam.
oh, I see now
so you wouldn't have had a problem with a (totally hypothetical) modder setting up a totally independent method of payment to distribute his/her mod
Mavromatis
Member
Isn't that the case for Dragon Age mods? I mean the encryption not Steam holding the key but it was somehow broken or so I remember.
No, but the games publisher or developer might. Some embraced it, some strictly forbid it. That approach worked fine.
No! I'd fucking encourage it, and I'd be glad to purchase it if I deemed it worth the price! But you can't do that because Bethesda will shut you down...well, until they figured out a way to take the majority of the profit, that is.
Many mods have been created for games which are closed, a great example being Grant Theft Auto. There's always been the term 'modders will find a way'.
Mavromatis
Member
I remember Civilization 5 boosting about the modability or maybe that was Civilization 4. Anyway, I hope we will see Civ, Mount&Blade, CK2 and EU4 with paid mods. Paradox already bought the mods and sold them as DLC but only the largest. There were great Civilization 4 mods which deserved as much as the game itself.
I feel like groups of people with tiny mods are gonna team up and combine their mods into more expensive mod packs
there's not always gonna be an a la carte option and it's gonna suck if you want a small mod but can't get it unless you spend 15 bucks to also buy all the other mods in the pack that you don't want
there's not always gonna be an a la carte option and it's gonna suck if you want a small mod but can't get it unless you spend 15 bucks to also buy all the other mods in the pack that you don't want
Open letter from Chesko (Creator of Skyrim mod Frostfall) where he explains what his plans are :
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s53/...1b3ed9f70c62/c727dccbb3398aebb5946afac7faaaea
Give it a read it's interesting.
TL;DR : What was free will remain free, he will use the paid workshop in 'pay what you want' mode for new updates with a 90 days exclusivity, then update on the nexus for free.
Sounds like a reasonable solution.
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s53/...1b3ed9f70c62/c727dccbb3398aebb5946afac7faaaea
Give it a read it's interesting.
TL;DR : What was free will remain free, he will use the paid workshop in 'pay what you want' mode for new updates with a 90 days exclusivity, then update on the nexus for free.
Sounds like a reasonable solution.
Not as long as valve and bethesda are charging 75% of the creators of the mods.
At least someone is making sense, this is what i expect from mainstream modders like Chesko.
A mod of a SP game and in game cosmetic for an online game are two totally different things. Nevermind the pay cuts are totally different.
Intheflorsh
Banned
Yeah, I expect a lot of modders are going to go the route of withholding content. Also be on the lookout out for "lite" and "premium" versions of mods appearing soon.
I'm not saying modders don't deserve to get compensated for their work, but things are bound to get messy now.
Modders are going to be lured by the prospect of making money, but they should be asking why they have to give up 75% to do so. That's not an equitable arrangement. Why should they make the horse armor for Bethesda?
Mavromatis
Member
I wish Steam followed the Humble Bundle's method for cutting the pie. Since most people follow the default they would get their %75 but if I wanted to pay more for a party it would be my choice.
Thank you.
They're not though. AFAIK it's 25% for item creators in TF2/Dota2 as well.
hobblygobbly
Member
The best model is a PWYW (Pay-what-you-want) for mods with either a minimum of $1 or a true PWYW (so free, but if you want to throw some $5, go ahead).
It works fantastically well with even small obscure indie games on sites like http://itch.io/
Modders put a lot of work into what they do, I'm not a modder per-se but I am a programmer and done my share of work on games in the programming department, I've written in-house tools for design that are later usable as modding tools. I know the type of work that goes into making mods.
The thing is putting mods strictly behind a pay wall is an issue of PC gaming culture/community when it boils down to it. For 20+ years now mods have been a thing on PC, it has created new games and genres and birthed game developers themselves, they were always community "first" aspects of video games on PC.
However, modders couldn't receive money legally but now they can which is GREAT but putting it behind a wall is tainting that culture of PC gaming. That's why I think a PYWYW model would work perfectly (and only a PWYW model and/or donations/patreon) because this way people can reward modders for their time and effort but also maintain the essence of modding as well. Personally I think 25% is way too low a cut. They do all the work and receive the least? Lol. It shouldn't be that way, it's absurd.
So in essence I support paying for mods via a PWYW model only. I don't support putting them exclusively behind a pay wall and neither do I support only getting a 25% cut for all the work. They deserve more.
It works fantastically well with even small obscure indie games on sites like http://itch.io/
Modders put a lot of work into what they do, I'm not a modder per-se but I am a programmer and done my share of work on games in the programming department, I've written in-house tools for design that are later usable as modding tools. I know the type of work that goes into making mods.
The thing is putting mods strictly behind a pay wall is an issue of PC gaming culture/community when it boils down to it. For 20+ years now mods have been a thing on PC, it has created new games and genres and birthed game developers themselves, they were always community "first" aspects of video games on PC.
However, modders couldn't receive money legally but now they can which is GREAT but putting it behind a wall is tainting that culture of PC gaming. That's why I think a PYWYW model would work perfectly (and only a PWYW model and/or donations/patreon) because this way people can reward modders for their time and effort but also maintain the essence of modding as well. Personally I think 25% is way too low a cut. They do all the work and receive the least? Lol. It shouldn't be that way, it's absurd.
So in essence I support paying for mods via a PWYW model only. I don't support putting them exclusively behind a pay wall and neither do I support only getting a 25% cut for all the work. They deserve more.
TF2 and DOTA go to Valve. Bethesda gets a cut of the Skyrim money.
The optimist in me hopes that it draws more developers into releasing modding tools for their games.
However that's a rather naive outlook. I'd rather see 33% to modders.
I meant from the point of view of a modder putting his content on the workshop to profit from it, It's a good middle ground between the modder and his fan base.
The 75/25 cut is another problem.
The workshop allows for a pay what you want model, but there is a higher pice set by default on the mod page and most people might overlook it because of that.
The crux of the issue is that modding has always been this free thing on the side that has enhanced games, authorized or not. It being authorized is not the magical green light to profit land everyone thinks it is. When you've got major stakeholders suddenly involved in what was largely a passion hobby, shit is going to go sideways real fast. They are the gatekeepers in a paid system. They can pick the winners and losers. They can decide who even gets to play.
Everyone should be asking why this seems equitable, not searching for some sort of silver lining. The premise is bullshit. Valve and companies that take part in this are going to spin some serious yarn about it being good for creators, while they lop off 75% of every transaction. It's really about profit for them, not enhancing the community.
We're already seeing stolen mods, early access mods, all sorts of crap. This is a poorly implemented feature system that is meant to generate revenue for Valve and its partners, nothing more. If they cared, they'd curate and moderate the store rigorously, and they'd also not be removing donation links. There'd be a "pay what you want" option. There are many ways to do this better, and in a way that's more beneficial for the modders and the consumers.
Instead, we get another IV drip of money hooked up to Valve and we're all supposed to smile about it.
The pessimist in me sees developer creating modding tools that create encrypted packages that can only be uploaded to the workshop as paid content. Furthermore it will provide native phone home functionality(DRM) to check if the person who installed the mod has purchased said mod from the workshop. This is going to lead to a walled garden valhalla of microtransaction DLC created by third parties. I'm just speculating, but at the same time, I'm bookmarking this thread to come back to in a few years time just so I can make a post somewhere to prove I was right. It truly is the end of an era
Fried Food
Banned
is the skyrim mod community still that vibrant? This seems like it was miss timed.
For Bethesda games it usually peaks in the months or year after the tools are released , then it settles down a bit but it's always very active until the next game in the series comes out.
So yes it's still quite active, and there are some great mods/tools/updates that came out in the last year.
As long as Valve and Bethesda are charging money for this, especially 75%, then there can never be a "reasonable solution" or a "good middle ground".
Or, you know, you could open a patreon if you have so many fans, and take 100% of the donation money.
This is nothing more or less than an attempt to monetize the modding community who has been supporting their games for so long. I'd gladly donate on patreon to keep up development of mods i love, but i'm not going to give a cent to valve and bethesda for work they didn't do.
This is nothing more or less than an attempt to monetize the modding community who has been supporting their games for so long. I'd gladly donate on patreon to keep up development of mods i love, but i'm not going to give a cent to valve and bethesda for work they didn't do.
I don't see why we should all be so glum about valve making something from this. They host the content, provide a huge audience of people, easy integration with the workshop etc etc. They give the people who want to sell a lot of benefits.
Stolen mods is shitty but there are avenues for the true creators to follow to fix it. It happens elsewhere in the Dota store.
The modding scene has always been weighted more towards crap than it was good quality stuff and surprise surprise nobody cared then (Good stuff exists I'm not saying it doesn't). It's just the way it is except now the good stuff can charge money. Except now we have a rating system and comment boards for each mod so that you can somewhat understand what kind of quality the mod is in.
Pay what you want does exist on the store though? http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=429360318
Intheflorsh
Banned
Plus, regardless of content, mods will have to be priced around a dollar to make any sales whatsoever. (It's the classic appstore problem.) Valve's offering an absolutely ludicrous effort to compensation proposition.
Then again, modders were working for nothing before this. A lot of them will be happy for the chance to get a pittance for their work even though they're getting screwed.
They get 30 % already off the products we are buying from their distribution service. They make millions of dollars and are hugely profitable, have very high market dominance, and they have implemented a strict DRM that's accepted by consumers.
ScepticMatt
Member
I've yet to see a convincing argument why mod authors shouldn't be allowed to sell content.
I've seen people here calling them third party DLC, and I think this a fitting description.
Those thinking about quality control should look at the modders reputation and mod price and decide for themselves.
Besides, the amount of hate and vitriol in the last pages is disappointing.
I've seen people here calling them third party DLC, and I think this a fitting description.
Those thinking about quality control should look at the modders reputation and mod price and decide for themselves.
Besides, the amount of hate and vitriol in the last pages is disappointing.
*smh*. Is this really necessary?
Don't act like the mod author isn't aware of the cut or never will be.
If a mod author knows about the cut and still wants to put his mod on there, as flawed as the system may be, the way of doing it like Chesko will is still one of the most reasonable way to go about it.
"as long as a worker willingly let herself be exploited by a huge corporation, there's nothing wrong with the exploitation" is the argument you're making. The "flawed system" is what is being criticized and should be condemned strongly by both modders and consumers.
alexandros
Banned
Indeed.
and only get 1/4 of what people are paying for their work, apparently.
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