Do you honestly think Igarashi is a scumbag con artist, or is untrustworthy with money? He was making these ANNUALLY. And they were ALL BELOVED. He made a cool multiplayer online loot grind version of this game for like $15k total. He's proven he's good with a budget before, and is good at this kind of game. So what if a bad person will do a bad thing with a service? What bearing does that have on Bloodstained? He's been completely upfront with us from day one.
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Koji Igarashi Kickstarts Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night (2.5D, backdash, 2018)
- Thread starter PranooY
- Start date
Do you honestly think Igarashi is a scumbag con artist, or is untrustworthy with money? He was making these ANNUALLY. And they were ALL BELOVED. He made a cool multiplayer online loot grind version of this game for like $15k total. He's proven he's good with a budget before, and is good at this kind of game. So what if a bad person will do a bad thing with a service? What bearing does that have on Bloodstained? He's been completely upfront with us from day one.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Video Games != Armageddon :|
Yes, you back concepts on the promise of their completion. You DO NOT back "projects" that are mere gauges of interest to a publisher. These Kickstarters aren't being used for projects - they are being used to say "See? People are interested. Now will you publish us?"
You not only have the prospect of the project going south at the hands of a developer, you have yet ANOTHER prospect of the project going south by a third party.
Kickstarters fail - yep. Nothing you can do about it. That is between you and the developer and not dependent on a 3rd party.
But Kickstarter wasn't just created to fund concepts - it was designed to CUT OUT THE MIDDLE MAN - which is what a publisher is - which is what is now what is being abused on KS. It was designed to put YOU in touch with the CREATOR. It was designed to be a two-way street without any branching paths. It was designed so that the fans can engage and directly fund a project that the developer wants to create without being sliced to pieces by a publisher or 3rd party business investor that pulls the strings.
Are you there yet?
Read above.
Red Arremer
Member
I'm pretty sure that the publisher is not going to involve themselves very much in the development process. It seems that they're only going to provide the additional funds and whatever kind of framework goes into bringing the game to the various platforms.
You missed the metaphor if you think it was to be that literal. I am mocking your overly cynical attitude, using an extremely ridiculous example, fella!
Dude you're just being narrow-minded and unrealistic.
Yes, you can back either of those. Since when is this not ok? The rest of your post displays a middling understanding of the concept and I'm not really sure where to start other than "No you're wrong, it's intended for this exact thing, too!" You're just declaring a narrow viewpoint of what the service is for, when it is ACTUALLY for that AS WELL AS OTHER types of fundraisers.
We're helping get something off the ground that we personally like. That's sort of the best way I can say it: "Get it off the ground."
What's the problem with Mighty No. 9? People funded a Mega Man clone and, by golly, it looks like a Mega Man clone. The only complaints I've heard is that Mighty No. 9 doesn't look exactly like the concept art and that it has an animated series in the pipeline.
I mean, I've never funded a Kickstarter, but all I see from it as someone invested in video games is a lot of interesting ideas and revivals. I mean we've gotten so many awesome games funded from it and other crowdfunding services that even I, who actually hates the whole Day 1 culture of video games, can't hate Kickstarter because it's resulting in games that look interesting to me instead of AAA or F2P games that I'm completely uninterested in. In addition, we got VR and microconsoles from people using Kickstarter to raise funds.
I mean, you could complain about the fact that some publisher is putting in 4.5 million of their own money into Bloodstained so long as it gets 500,000 more from a Kickstarter, but that's more than Konami wants to invest in IGA's Castlevania games for a while. I am not just going to say "Fuck this publisher putting money into a game on Kickstarter!" when this publisher wants the exact same thing I want which is a successful IGAvania. Sure, this publisher wants to make money off of a new IGAvania, but those funding this Kickstarter want to pay money for a new IGAvania. This is win-win for both the publisher of Bloodstained and for fans of IGAvanias.
I mean, I've never funded a Kickstarter, but all I see from it as someone invested in video games is a lot of interesting ideas and revivals. I mean we've gotten so many awesome games funded from it and other crowdfunding services that even I, who actually hates the whole Day 1 culture of video games, can't hate Kickstarter because it's resulting in games that look interesting to me instead of AAA or F2P games that I'm completely uninterested in. In addition, we got VR and microconsoles from people using Kickstarter to raise funds.
I mean, you could complain about the fact that some publisher is putting in 4.5 million of their own money into Bloodstained so long as it gets 500,000 more from a Kickstarter, but that's more than Konami wants to invest in IGA's Castlevania games for a while. I am not just going to say "Fuck this publisher putting money into a game on Kickstarter!" when this publisher wants the exact same thing I want which is a successful IGAvania. Sure, this publisher wants to make money off of a new IGAvania, but those funding this Kickstarter want to pay money for a new IGAvania. This is win-win for both the publisher of Bloodstained and for fans of IGAvanias.
That campaign was pretty crass in how it treated backers. Bloodstained has been clear since Day Zero that they're working with a publisher so that's already a huge leg up. They're also presumably not going to start a second funding campaign a couple weeks after this one closes, but then I suppose they could still surprise me on that one!
Crass? You mean the community manager and the GamerGate stuff?
Jacksinthe
Banned
Oh no, I 100% agree with you in getting things "off the ground". I don't agree that a publisher who already has funds should be begging for more funds just to "see if people are interested" because there is a problem with that:
If a publisher cannot recognize that there is a group of people who would bend over backwards for X game, they will have no clue how to handle development of X game. They are out of touch. They are not paying attention to trends, large or small. I take issue with that, especially when the driving force behind this KS was to "test the waters", so to speak.
One of the reasons KS became a success with small projects is because there were no publishers - which means the devs made what they wanted to make. Don't think for one second 100% of what the developer wants will make it into the game if a publisher is backing it, ESPECIALLY if that publisher has no fucking clue about the fanbase to begin with. That's a scary thought.
I'm fine with helping projects get off the ground. I'm not fine with helping publishers who are literally clueless and who need cash up front just to put 2 and 2 together. That's a red flag that reflects the poor decisions of the pub and, as a result, the dev.
Are you seeing where I come from yet? There's enough evidence for me to just flat-out stay away. The game may end up being fucking amazing and my GOAT but enough warning signs are there for me to shrug this one off.
I never got why that or the cartoon pitch was a big deal for people. I'd much rather they ask for more money to add content not included in the original concept/stretch goals of the project for the original Kickstarter funds than use money from that to fund something it wasn't intended for. If you weren't interested in VA, just don't give extra money. Furthermore, the cartoon pitch was using any Kickstarter money either. So in the end, who cares about any of that (or rather why?).
Stuff like the second kickstarter to add extra stuff, the other projects before it was out, and a general lack of excitement for what the final project was shaping up to look like, gameplaywise, lead to people souring on MN9. There's also offhand comments about Inafune being more of a businessman than a designer that made people really weary of the project. Igarashi, on the other hand, is a designer and programmer to the bone. You can FEEL it when he talks about his actual work on projects. He totally turns into a dracula-shaped nerd. And it's adorable.
Wildarmsjecht
Member
I wanted more Castlevania.
I will now get more Castlevania.
I am a very content gamer.
Whether I must showcase my coins or my interest, if in some miniscule way I was able to assist in getting a new Castlevania game made, then shit, that's just gravy on the decadent turkey of joy because:
I WILL NOW GET MORE CASTLEVANIA
I can only hope Media.Vision and Sony does this for a Wild ARMs if that's what it takes.
I will now get more Castlevania.
I am a very content gamer.
Whether I must showcase my coins or my interest, if in some miniscule way I was able to assist in getting a new Castlevania game made, then shit, that's just gravy on the decadent turkey of joy because:
I WILL NOW GET MORE CASTLEVANIA
I can only hope Media.Vision and Sony does this for a Wild ARMs if that's what it takes.
theMrCravens
Member
You should change all those to "Igavania"s.
This isn't Castlevania characters and lore, nor is it a true platformer like Castlevania 1-4.
We will NEVER get more Castlevania. NEVER!
The stuff I bring up is about more than just videogames. It's like..."I need starter cash to get investors to fund my fucking dumb watch idea" like...wider net stuff that it started out doing.
Right well, publishers aren't developers, so you shouldn't worry there. Inticreates and Igarashi know 2D games, they built some of the best of them. This is about getting uncle moneybucks to loosen his purse strings.
I don't think publishers have as much cast over a project of this sort as you're thinking. That usually occurs with high risk projects where "everything falls to them". But here, we've already offloaded much of the risk, so what does the cowardly mr investor guy have to be afraid of anymore?
Meddling usually occurs when publishers "run the numbers" on something and get SCARED. Instead, this kickstarter is doing something special right away. It's running numbers ALREADY. Igarashi is getting hard market research data to show these dudes in suits to convince them, "no look at how many people, tho" it's infinitely easier to convince businessmen of something with a chart on your side.
....
I'm concerned you don't really know enough about what a publisher actually DOES on a project versus what a DEVELOPER does. those are not the same thing. The publisher gives the developer money expecting a return. Meddling happens when a developer asks for MORE money and the publisher feels worried enough to set terms. In this case, the terms were to show interest in the game. That term has been met, therefor money will change hands, and the publisher will go away until it's time to collect on the sales of the game. If the developer already has money, the publisher ain't doin' shit. Why would the developer even care at that point? They have the money they needed! See what I mean? We're getting that money to change hands. That's the "deal". That's how business works.
Might be culture/language barrier. Seems like Inafune was treating KS as any other capital source while KS has it's own weird culture of entitlement. Some of the things KS people ask for a publisher wouldn't; but KS wants to meddle in the final as much more than a traditional publisher. Might simply be no one told Inafune that KS is not just a fan-funded publisher but also it's micro-culture.
Theonik
Member
They will in their dreams.
You know you want that Classic Mode.
Igarashi isn't begging for Kickstarter funding simply because he wants more money for the sake of money. Yes... he had a funding source established beforehand, however, it's based SOLELY on the condition that his Kickstarter campaign meets the $500,000 goal.
Call it misguided or out-of-touch of the publisher, however, it's just the nature of the beast in this day and age. Publishers as a whole want a sure thing and simply put, a Metroidvania wasn't something you really see these days done on a massive budget; they're largely mimicked by indie developers lately which hardly convinces a large-scale publisher to appropriate millions on sheer good will.
In an ideal world, Igarashi and many others would be able to receive 100% funding for their large-scale projects purely out of crowd-sourcing, however, it's utterly naive to think that would be the case when the current position of the campaign is considered record breaking or incredible by the usual Kickstarter standard.
You hear ever few weeks how project leads of various Kickstarter campaigns vastly underestimated the budget needed even for the simplest game concepts or found it necessary to acquire third-party funding. In a lot of cases, those same project leaders actually don't progress any further and have to call it quits with zero return for their many backers. There's no real legal recourse for said backers due to the nature of crowd-sourcing and how Kickstarter handles it.
Again, I'll state it one last time, if you're not comfortable with a project, you don't need to back it at all. Telling people it's an abuse of the system or how it's down-right scum worthy is rude, annoying, and to the point of bigotry. It won't convince people not already sharing the same argument.
I've had my own misgivings with this campaign to the point of pulling my funding, however, you don't see me decrying the campaign and coming up with all sorts of ways it'll fail and rob users blind and destroy the integrity of Kickstarter and future indie developers. That's just silly.
yeah but who cares THAT MUCH about characters and lore? I want gameplay. (Also, dude! They're putting in a retro gameplay mode where it's just 6 linear, super hard levels like old school 'vanias!!)
It seems a bit much to tack on stretch goals after getting a stupendous amount more money than originally asked for, but what personally put me off was that they made a deal with Deep Silver and are keeping physical copies away from anyone on the Kickstarter side, something they definitely did not have to do since they came to the Deep Silver deal long, long after the Kickstarter was over. That that happened with the backdrop of the cartoon pitch having preceded it is what I found especially crass.
No. I get that some of that rubbed people the wrong way -- some reasons sound legitimate and some do not -- but I really don't know much about that.
A spiritual successor is more than enough to most people.
The very basic premise puts a lot of the KS capital into non-developments things. The backer rewards and KS cut off the top. I don't think KS could fully fund a medium sized game and KS funders seem a bit let down and small scale games. So it pushes small teams to promise the moon or big teams to use it as a super early pre-order system (like here) to help engage with mother capital sources.
There was some drama over a community manager who mass-banned a lot of GG people on their funder forums. The lady was trans as well which might have fuels GG's hate for her. I see a lot of people who I know are GG people REALLY hate Mn9 for that.
Okay, there is enough about what happened with Mighty No. 9 to see it as disappointing to backers, but is that a black mark on Inti Creates or merely Kenji Inafune? Maybe if IGA starts doing shit with Bloodstained, there might actually be a point of comparison for it. However, it does look like IGA made the terms of the Kickstarter clear from the outset and has yet to change them. I'm still picking up Mighty No. 9 though and I will pick up Bloodstained.
Considering people actually doubt this project solely because of Inti Creates means that Mighty No. 9 hurt their reputation as much as it hurt Inafune's. Personally, I'd say a lot of the decisions MN9 underwent was largely on Inafune rather than Inti Creates but we'll never really know.
As you stated, we'll begin to get an idea if the same issues present themselves with Bloodstained, however, Igarashi and his project are already much better off for the simple fact that they shared everything in advance rather than surprised people. But for argument's sake, it's still not too late for those ill surprises.
Inticreates is not as involved with MN9 as they are with this. Comcept are still the guys who "made" MN9.
There's this line from Hideki Kamiya about how Inafune is a businessman, not a creator, and that's what resonates with me after the Mighty No. 9 experience. So no, I don't really apply much of what happened there to Bloodstained, although there are other similarities between the two campaigns (largely positive).
Diablohead
Member
All he'd have to do is change the design slightly.
90's cartoon tier on kickstarter, make it happen iga.
Wildarmsjecht
Member
Have a Nice Day
Member
If you're saying that people shouldn't pledge for the sole reason that there's a publisher behind that project then I'll have to disagree with you. There're plenty of reasons of why people shouldn't use Kickstarter, the reality of the thing is people want to see Igarashi + Yamane project come to light, and I'm pretty sure the majority of these people - including myself - want to see the game being developed in any shape or form. There's absolutely no guarantee that the game will come out as people expected it to be or even as IGA promised regardless. On top of that there's nothing will guarantee the backers money if worse things than these happen, that IS the risky nature of using Kickstarter unfortunately.
I think we need the constant reminder that we need something better than Kickstarter that guarantees the backers can get their money's worth or get it back if things came to the worst.
Plus, I'm sure the thread being updated is more effective in bringing more backers and a better idea than relying on stupid Vine challenges.
charlequin
Banned
Not even close to how stretch goals work, which is explained at length in every thread about every game Kickstarter ever.
This is like hilariously disconnected from reality. At this point a lot of the people backing this are people who have played Broken Age, Banner Saga, Octodad, Shovel Knight, Divinity: Original Sin... people who have seen campaigns deliver on their promises and result in good or excellent games in the process. There isn't going to be some collective moment where everyone "wakes up" because the average backer is getting what they paid for.
As I understand it, anyway, for relatively inexplicable reasons instead of playing like a Mega Man game it seems to be built around a tag-and-dash score-attack system instead.
I played the beta just like a megaman game it's just a little more fun to dash around. The score attack stuff is really just for leaderboards doesn't effect the game at all. Otherwise it's all jumpy and shooty just like everyone wanted. Most of the hate seems to be around the art style more than anything.
MagnaderAlpha
Member
But that's if you want the stat boosts from absorbing enemies. You don't have to dash through them, and can flat out shoot them to death. Hell, this might be enable a whole "non-stat boost" play through run thing.
Dimitri LH
Member
Wish the OP would be updated with new info orwhen strechgoals are funded.
Still holding out on backing since im low on spending cash. Waiting to see basement strechgoals, then ill jump on the 60$.
Still holding out on backing since im low on spending cash. Waiting to see basement strechgoals, then ill jump on the 60$.
No, I've seen the videos... It looks like it plays like a Mega Man game except you can dash into enemies when they are defeated for a stat boost and to add to your score. I've seen enough playthroughs of Mega Man and Mega Man X games to tell that Mighty No. 9 should play like a Mega Man game except for that.
Well that's one interesting interpretation of those events!
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
The game came out late (as do most KS games and many non-KS games) but did it not come out?
The vocal few who feel 'burned' are the vocal few. If people really felt that way; why did this get funded?
Finale Fireworker
Member
Wow. We're going to hit 2.5 tomorrow. I hope we learn the basement goals too.
I've said it before and I will say it again: the issue is that Double Fine waited until after Massive Chalice funded, and then mere days later announced all the money from their previous Kickstarter was gone because they didn't manage it properly and people were getting half a game.
I hope there's something neat down there even for those who aren't interested in more platforms. If the platforms thing does end up being a real thing, that is.
Finale Fireworker
Member
I am hoping one of them is an orchestrated soundtrack and the final goal is Vita/Wii U.
Is it surprising that a studio runner who had a reputation for running over time and over budget; ran over time and over budget? They still delivered a game.
There's no way they aren't showing us at least one more goal when it's hit.
I haven't played Broken Age and I don't intend to because the game looks like a piece of trash (To me at least).
Good/Bad/Whatever the quality if that game has literally zero to do with how much I trust Igarashi to put out a quality game.
Kickstarters are about how much you as an individual trust the people running it. I think pretty much everyone feels that way from the biggest skeptic of it, to the people who sing it's praises the most.
Holy Order Sol
Member
oh god yes