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I don't understand Japanese Honorifics, please explain them sensei

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M

Megalosaro

Banned
CraigerGamer said:
-san
Sempei
Sensai
-chan
-kun
Etc
Ect

I'm playing Persona 4 The Golden and I see a whole bunch of honorifics and I really don't know what to think of them. Do some show who is inherently the leader? Are they gender specific? Can one go from a -San to a -kun? Sometimes the honorific seems given out of respect, other times it's almost done to mock the person. I'd love to know more.

I know I could google all this but I thought I would get more subtle and specific answers asking GAF.
Click to expand...

Misappropriated use of honorifics is a pretty common way to slight
 
E

Eila

Member
-kun also seems to be used on female students by their sensei, at a least in my animes.
-sama on gods and people they really admire, like female otakus on their idols.
That's my contribution.
 
C

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I just can't..why would an english translation include Japanese honorifics.
 
W

Woorloog

Banned
Crossing Eden said:
I just can't..why would an english translation include Japanese honorifics.
Click to expand...

Because there are not quite direct translations, correct?
They're not quite like titles, like "master" even if the meaning is more or less same, if i understood correctly.

EDIT Like TV tropes says here http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/JapaneseHonorifics?from=Main.JapaneseHonorifics
"One interesting feature, however, is that there are far more of them with far more nuances of meaning than there are in other languages. They can be either attached to the end of a name, or in some cases (such as "sensei", much like the English "Professor") as standalone substitutes for names."

Thus, they're not exactly translatable.
 
W

Walpurgis

Banned
Replicant said:
This thread will not be complete without DESU or its penultimate version, DESU-LTIMATE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkVYHUMCCwc
Click to expand...

5174661+_bb1003e1103fa15df02f98867251b609.jpg
 
R

ramyeon

Member
Crossing Eden said:
I just can't..why would an english translation include Japanese honorifics.
Click to expand...
In the case of Persona 4 it kind of works. It's set in Japan, in a Japanese high school and honorifics are an important part of that setting and culture. There's no way to translate them so I don't see anything wrong with leaving them as is, there should probably be a translation note or something to inform people of their meaning though.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
Darksol said:
^ This.

Anyone with enough time to argue the semantics of romanization can probably afford the couple days it'd take to learn the kana :p
Click to expand...

I mean if you're gonna write it out as that then I tended to stress capitalization but yeah learning the characters for it is easier to begin with, imo.
 
F

firehawk12

Subete no aware
It's Atlus' weird thing. Which is doubly confusing since they seem to hate Japanese dubs, so I don't get why they don't just fully localize the Persona games.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
firehawk12 said:
It's Atlus' weird thing. Which is doubly confusing since they seem to hate Japanese dubs, so I don't get why they don't just fully localize the Persona games.
Click to expand...

Because the games are so Japanese and so immersed in that stuff that you can't remove them.

There isn't a translation, really, of say, -Chi, or -Tan, or even -Kun/Chan. So you either leave them in or you remove them entirely and hope the lines still make sense without them.

Besides, it adds to the charm of Atlus games.
 
W

Walpurgis

Banned
Frozenprince said:
Because the games are so Japanese and so immersed in that stuff that you can't remove them.

There isn't a translation, really, of say, -Chi, or -Tan, or even -Kun/Chan. So you either leave them in or you remove them entirely and hope the lines still make sense without them.

Besides, it adds to the charm of Atlus games.
Click to expand...

I agree. At first, I was pissed off Persona 3 didn't have a Japenese voices with subs option but the English dub grew on me and I appreciated that they at least kept the honourifics. Like you said, the only options are to keep them or to remove them since there is usually either no way to translate or translating leads to awkward dialogue like constantly calling your brother "brother".
 
C

CraigerGamer

Member
Crossing Eden said:
I just can't..why would an english translation include Japanese honorifics.
Click to expand...

Don't you think keeping them makes the whole game more immersive? I didn't know exactly what they meant but I knew there was affection drawn to each character because of the honorific. From being a complete stranger to being a team of kick-ass high school kids, that evolution is described in language. Personally, I'm glad they kept it.
 
F

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Walpurgis said:
I agree. At first, I was pissed off Persona 3 didn't have a Japenese voices with subs option but the English dub grew on me and I appreciated that they at least kept the honourifics. Like you said, the only options are to keep them or to remove them since there is usually either no way to translate or translating leads to awkward dialogue like constantly calling your brother "brother".
Click to expand...
But they don't have to worry about lip sync at all though, so there's no reason they can't completely localize the minor stuff. If you aren't an anime nerd, you're going to be like the OP and be confused, which is the sign of a confusing localization.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
firehawk12 said:
But they don't have to worry about lip sync at all though, so there's no reason they can't completely localize the minor stuff. If you aren't an anime nerd, you're going to be like the OP and be confused, which is the sign of a confusing localization.
Click to expand...

I mean they do change things though.

You're not Nee-Chan you're "Big bro", etc etc.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
You would lose potential subtleties with regards to dialogue if you just dropped all honoriffics.

Not that writing in anime/manga is particularly subtle in the first place but then why dumb it down further?
 
F

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Haly said:
You would lose potential subtleties with regards to dialogue if you just dropped all honoriffics.

Not that writing in anime/manga is particularly subtle in the first place but then why dumb it down further?
Click to expand...
Well, I would ask why have English voices at all, but that's just crazy talk I suppose. :p
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
firehawk12 said:
Well, I would ask why have English voices at all, but that's just crazy talk I suppose. :p
Click to expand...

Why have voices? If silent films and subtitles were good enough for our ancestors, then they're good enough for me.
 
Sakura

Sakura

Member
Crossing Eden said:
I just can't..why would an english translation include Japanese honorifics.
Click to expand...

Not that weird. You see it in translations of other languages lots of times.
Although the localisation of Persona 4 is a little weird in that they still change names/add honorifics at times compared to the original.
 
D

Dingens

Member
Crossing Eden said:
I just can't..why would an english translation include Japanese honorifics.
Click to expand...

for some strange reason, this seems to be mostly an english translation (or bad fan translation) thing... I've never come across this whole honorifics thing in translations from Japanese to other languages. usually they just drop them for good.
 
I

Inquisitive_Ghost

Member
We're on page two and nobody's mentioned that P4's instruction manual has an explanation of all the relevant honourifics.

I mean, I've never checked P4G for this because I don't have it, but there's decent odds it's in there too.
 
B

blamite

Member
I've seen both "Senpai" and "Sempai" used in this thread, is there a difference between them or is one of them a misspelling or are they interchangeable or what?
 
A

Aliquidmeri

Member
Inquisitive_Ghost said:
We're on page two and nobody's mentioned that P4's instruction manual has an explanation of all the relevant honourifics.

I mean, I've never checked P4G for this because I don't have it, but there's decent odds it's in there too.
Click to expand...
The first time I played Persona 3 I wandered around for 20 minutes trying to find a guy named Senpai after I was told to find him.
 
Sakura

Sakura

Member
blamite said:
I've seen both "Senpai" and "Sempai" used in this thread, is there a difference between them or is one of them a misspelling or are they interchangeable or what?
Click to expand...

It is senpai.
Sometimes baka will spell it sempai, because the n can sound somewhat similar to the english m, depending on what follows after it.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Can we change Junior Member to Member-kouhai as well?
 
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