Milly Osworth
Member
When can we expect some actual leaks?
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Digitimes: Supply chain players gear up for new Nintendo console
- Thread starter DieH@rd
- Start date
Bots are better than you
Banned
Joke: When Ubisoft gets Dev-Kits, that is comparable to a full scale official reveal by Nintendo and a Digital Foundry teardown. ;D
Real:
You never know with Nintendo, looks like Shin'en has already some Dev-Kits, but i doubt that they are leaking anything big/essential.
I think the best chance is when Nikkei is getting some information again, they are pretty on spot most of the times.
And yes, Ubisoft is actually a real answer, too! Stuff leaks all the time from them, be it their own games and so on.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Wait, really?
DaSorcerer7
Member
Hope Bgassasin chimes in if he has any insight.
Bots are better than you
Banned
Just speculation, based on an interview with their lead dev, was posted here earlier. He was making some cryptic comments of a futuristic racer on a "new handheld".
And given the technical results Shin'en seems to achieve on Nintendo systems, the thought that they might have some dev-kits came up.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Can I have a link to this? Sounds interesting.
ecosse_011172
Junior Member
Exactly, massive 2+2= 5 there.
Cosmonaut X
Member
Yup - a little bit over-eager, but it's an unusual thing to say so it's not surprising it got pounced on.
That said, do we have any idea when Shin'en got their hands on Wii U kits? They were in at launch with Nano Assault, so they must have had reasonably early access - have they ever commented on it?
EDIT:
Actually, looking at the quote again, it does look awfully like a coy hint.
The question doesn't mention handhelds - let alone "new handhelds" - just other systems, so Manfred's response is odd unless you read it as a wink-wink, nudge-nudge, say-no-more hint at a future platform that he knows something about.
Bots are better than you
Banned
Here is the post, where the Interview was posted:
Also, i know that it is speculation, but don't you think that it is too much of a coincidence, that he's talking about a new handheld? I doubt anyone other than Nintendo will make a new handheld.
Bots are better than you
Banned
If i remember correctly, the only Shin'en game that has appeared on another console, is Nano Assault for PS4, everything else is Nintendo-hardware only.
I guess that is the reason why he was asked that question.
Interceptor
Banned
Please not. Neo might be an ok game but i still think it looks very.. average. No idea where you guys see some technical wizardry. GX looks better.
Ok, probably won't get much more than what he said about the resolution.Just recently, I've seen a Tweet from them, a few months ago, where they stated that, thanks to CPU's improvement (I think), the original Fast would be possible on N3DS.
...And since they've been so open in answering a question about the original Fast on N3DS, I don't think they're talking about that here.
EDIT: Here it is.
https://twitter.com/shinengames/status/527734620830199808
The spot price quoted on DRAMExchange for a 16GB microSD NAND chip with controller and card construction is $3.50. So a higher capacity does not equal an exponential increase in cost.
The market isn't the same as it was during the GameCube era, NAND was just beginning to take hold of the market at the time, since the market didn't even exist until 2000 and was still ridiculously expensive.
Now, it's much more reasonably priced and has distinct advantages over optical media, first and foremost of which is continued capacity and speed gains every 2 years that optical can't match.
Optical media can only be cheaper if the designed replacement becomes an industry standard for the entertainment industry as a whole, and for those of you not paying attention, there's no appetite for a new physical media type; not even Blu-Ray is seeing the desired amount of traction in the industry as was hoped for. So Blu-Ray is basically the last bastion of optical media. Reading the data isn't going to get much faster than it is already any time soon and the proposed 100GB capacity increase comes with more expensive production and lower yield.
If this "ecosystem" idea is a long-term plan for Nintendo, they need a long-term solution, and optical media isn't it.
In theory, this is true. In practice, as others have mentioned, there are complications with that.
You're thinking of China and that has ended as of the N64. And they don't use blank Gamecards, I believe it's a non-proprietary solution.
Since then, cartridges were what has been provided. Japan has never offered such a service.
You can't "concede" shelf space when retailers are literally already giving it away to other products, GameStop included. If anything, retailers will be happy to make better use of their retail space with fewer SKUs to sell and be much more likely to sell through more of them.
Blu-Ray production is not "pennies", contrary to popular belief, even when being produced in the 100,000 or more range. They suffer from lower production yields than DVDs do and higher license fees to pay than DVD authoring.
It is cheaper, but not so much cheaper than alternatives aren't worthy of consideration.
This is why physical media solutions that require 2 separate types of media on an "ecosystem" platform are a non-starter. Never mind that it sends a mixed message to the consumer.
You either go with a single physical media solution or NO solution.
Tell that to Sony when they did the same thing in 2012 when a 720p handheld screen was already a well-matured technology.
a) it was oled
b) vita failed
And I think Nintendo wants some of that Fischer Price image. FP products are durable and attractive to parents.
540p will be fine.
It is certainly over-reading things, but at this point, its actually not unreasonable for Shin'en to have dev-kits or have been told, roughly, what to expect for their next projects to be in the works when FAST wraps up this year.
They released Neo on WiiU's launch, so we know that they get kits very early.
The NX will not be OLED, and the important point is the PPI. 540 is not impossible depending on the actual size of the screen. Anything over 300 PPI is pointless, and even super high PPI is specifically for reading fine text.
That's pretty cheap. Still dollars.
Optical media is cheaper because it's cheaper/easier to press some layers of material together than it is to semiconductor fab and manufacture electronics.
For example, as I mentioned the consumer can purchase a spindle of single layer blurays for 50c each. I did a quick search and I found some random bluray duplication services for 85c which includes printed labels and a sleeve in quantities of 1000, Nintendo would probably have much better rates given they're quantities and buying power, or their own internal presses.
Yes, dual layer's are more, and future quad layers are more still, but given Nintendo, I'll bet 25GB's is plenty for them.
PdotMichael
Banned
Using Apple as example is quite silly.
The smart devices are using the same architecture and chipset series because they have all the same form factor.
While Apple's Macs are running x86 architecture.
Apple would never try to use A8 on crack to power a stationary system.
Not that one would need the same architecture to archive transparency between the systems. Japanese developers are developing just fine for PS3/PS4/Vita at the same time because stuff like same API, engines support and similiar graphical feature set.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I think their A series SoC are more limited by power consumption and heat dissipation issues given by the form factors they are in, their own proprietary Cyclone micro architecture is quite nice indeed. Apple is likely running internal OS X builds on A8X and future (A9X chips running at >2 GHz in a tri/quad core configuration which is more than enough to run OS X decently unless you are using it as an audio/video/development workstation). MacBook Air and Mac Mini could be future targets for example.
That caveat wasn't included in the silly statement being made by the person I was replying to.
Still money they'd be required to spend for cartridges on their handheld. It also doesn't factor in what Nintendo could negotiate that down to, since their use of NAND would not be re-usable like the other major buyers and thus have more consistent volume requirements. Plus, again, that includes manufacturer overhead from SK Hynix, Micron, etc.
It's cheaper because the machine tools to press the discs are prolific. If it weren't a well-used standard, there'd be fewer producers and thus less demand/higher cost. And considering that BluRay has a current cap at 128GB with a 4-layer disc, which produces a lower yield, we're going to be stuck with 2-layer BluRays for the foreseeable future.
And that's an issue, because like every non-transistor media type, it reaches a plateau. BluRay in commercial reader applications caps at 50MB/sec read speed, and that's with a 12x drive. Most commercial applications won't spin the disc faster than 8x speed. PS4 currently features a 6x speed drive.
Alternative optical media solutions do not offer the cost effectiveness of BluRay, so in the foreseeable future, this singular advantage to optical media will vanish into nothing anyways.
Like I said, it's not a forward-thinking solution to the problem.
The BluRay pressing is still an expense they'd be paying in addition to cartridges they'd have to produce for a handheld anyways, and as I mentioned before, there are several downsides to a split solution for physical media that can't be effectively worked around. So it's still an extra expense.
Never mind that opting for cartridges for both hardware models offers savings above and beyond just the media production itself, such as in:
Shipping and logistics - This is usually the most expensive part of the distribution chain. Fewer SKUs means fewer shipments. Should they opt for small packaging as with the 3DS carts, that reduces the amount paid in shipping further, as you can ship more in fewer pallets/containers.
Retail placement - By providing the same software SKU for multiple hardware units, you're not only reducing the risk for retailers to request stock, you're also paying less in slotting fees for shelf space. Again, should they opt for smaller packaging, you'd also end up better utilizing the shelf space that's been paid for.
The distribution chain accounts for more expense than supply chain typically does, so any savings made there more than make up for the extra expense of the cartridge itself and simplifies the supply chain by only needing to produce one type of physical media. And at this point, due to the benefits that stack in its favour, there's only one clear choice. I can't see them using 2 separate media types and there's no way we're going to see a handheld read optical discs, so it doesn't take much to puzzle this one out.
PdotMichael
Banned
Lol, you will never come clost to the costs of a BD with anything solid-state storage related.
Just the idea that could run with anything else than BDs for a stationary platform is naive at best.
Just the idea that could run with anything else than BDs for a stationary platform is naive at best.
how about my idea of 'cart +'? all games are on NX handheld carts. If you want to play on the home console, you plug the cart in and play. If you are offline, thats it - it uses the handheld assets but upscales to 1080p maybe with AA etc.
If you are online, the console downloads an update to the built-in HDD (or USB attached depending on how cheap Nintendo are), which updates the graphics etc
So you're suggesting that they pay twice for 2 different media types that can't be swapped between hardware, instead of paying for 1. And that somehow, paying for 2 media types instead of one is less expensive.
As long as Nintendo makes a handheld, discs become an unnecessary expense when there is now a more elegant solution that aligns with their current "ecosystem" mantra with NX. Were it just a console we were talking about, the argument couldn't even be considered.
Perhaps it was foolhardy of me to suggest that NAND chips cost practically nothing, since that only applies to the original NAND chip manufacturer itself and they don't pass that low cost on. But the fact remains that 1 solution is cheaper than 2 in every conceivable way possible.
But hey, if you want them to do things the most expensive and least elegant way possible, by all means, I won't suggest that they can't. Only that they shouldn't.
It works, but it doesn't really work both ways, which makes it not ideal. And you'd need 2 physical media readers in the console for that to function to begin with.
PdotMichael
Banned
People are overthinking Iwata's words again.
Why should Nintendo wants that both systems share the same game library if Smash proved for them that they can sell the "same" game successfully on two different systems?
Unnecessary effort.Just leave retail like it is now and use crossbuy as another digital push.
Unnecessary Accessory, Ho!
Not joking about the possibility
I think we'll here something around October. It seems like a lull in Nintendo's schedule and a good time for things to come out.
Part of me, in the back of my mind is saying 'Handheld in Japan, Console in the West next holiday' and then you flip-flop that scenario for the Spring. I have no idea if that's even feasible.
PdotMichael
Banned
There is no way you can justify using a storage that is easily >100x more expensive than a BD if factors like portability or form factor aren't important.
It's neither elegant nor cost effective.
Except they didn't. Handheld owners bought the handheld version, console owners bought the console version, and the amount of overlap is negligible.
With Iwata's method, the consumers do the exact same thing and buy the game in the same quantity and same methods they would regardless and Nintendo ends up spending less time, money and resources to make it happen.
That's why.
But they are important, because Nintendo will already have to pay for them anyways on their much better-selling hardware SKU, handhelds. Fewer production lines, fewer SKUs to ship/stock/market, you just pay a bit more for production, which is really the least expensive part of getting a game on the shelf, no matter what solution you use.
Fewer steps and fewer SKUs is ALWAYS more cost-effective.
If the NX is a home console and on the go hybrid (a two devide system, basically) - I could see it. You figure 15 mil at least for the handheld goers and even if they have almost no home console market, expecting 5 mil to sell to that market is reasonable.
But 20 mil first year? Neither a handheld or home console on it's own is likely to pull that off.
But 20 mil first year? Neither a handheld or home console on it's own is likely to pull that off.
Not to mention less money spent on server maintenance, update and DLC costs for both.
EDIT:
One thing puzzles me. How would game pricing work for cross-compatible v. non-cross compatible games work? Seems like a big problem.
PdotMichael
Banned
It's not going to be a hybrid system. Reading some people here is like a time travel back when some hardcore fantasts thought the Wii is a VR system.
That's really the part we don't know yet. Nintendo could decide to flat-rate the physical copy at a console game price and offer the handheld versions only online for a reduced rate for those who want that.
But such an issue makes the assumption that anyone who's on board with making games for NX would want to make something exclusive to one or the other, though, and if the rush for developers to make game multi-platform has taught us anything, so long as it's cheap to bring a game to another hardware platform, no one is going to say no to the option.
I'd assume they'd do $40 for single platform retail or digital OR the option for $60 for cross-platform digital. If they did $60 for retail on a handheld game sales would bomb.
Nintendo will still charge you $60 and $40 for home console and handheld. They will not devalue their software by giving you a discount for buying both handheld and home console version. Pricing will never go down significantly for Nintendo's games unless retailers want to get rid of excessive stock.
Do not question the Nintendo way.
Grampa Simpson
Banned
$50 for the game. Flat. Pricing open enough for 3rd parties to charge $60. Maybe a model somewhere for $40 cartridges that play handheld and console, but an upgrade option for downloadable higher quality assets on the console for an additional $20.
Well I was thinking that originally too - and it is a very nintendo approach, they are not against having us pay again (and again) for the same games. But they need to be really careful because they risk a huge backlash from those misinterpreting their comments if they do this. The sooner they clarify the better.
I think it makes sense to have one SKU for both platforms though. Helps to consolidate retail shelf space (where they are often getting squeezed out), and encourages hardware purchases if your handheld software works on the home console too. Given that Nintendo will probably make profit on the hardware, that isn't a bad thing.
So I think it could go either way - you're right that their description could simply be 'it is more efficient for our software development but we aren't passing any of that saving on to consumers' but I hope not.
well this wouldn't be an accessory - the home console would have a cart slot like the handheld, and no need for an optical drive at all.
lwilliams3
Member
Perhaps Matt answering that silly question in another thread is more useful than I initially thought. If the NX is not weaker than the Wii U, we are either talking about a very powerful portable (unlikely), or that the NX at least has a console counterpart.
PdotMichael
Banned
The main point is that Nintendo can't make a hybrid system without that it would hurt the handheld or console version. A weak console offspring would be dead on arrival while a high power consumption could hurt the handheld.
It's all about streamlining the software development process. If all NX platforms can run the same API, engines and tools it would be the logical evolution of what we are seeing on Sony platforms in Japan - where basically every game is realeased for all three systems or at least PS4 and PSVita. Nintendo wouldn't also need to run the same hardware or even architecture to archive that.
Iwata called the systems "brothers" for a reason.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
There've been more than a few rumors over the past couple of years of apple experimenting with Ax designs for notebook form factors. Given how capable A8 has proven to be (~haswell IPC) I think that we're not far from actually seeing an Ax non-iOS product.
Adam Tyner
Member
LoveCake
Member
My original (launch) 3DS is the last handheld i will ever need, i don't see why it needs to be replaced if this new console is a handheld.
My (launch) WiiU is not even three years old & it's being replaced, i don't think so, are Nintendo going to give me a half price discount if this is a new home console?
All i can say is this 'supply chains gearing up' (NX) had better be the "Third Pillar/Quality of Life" platform.
The 3DS is only four years old & the WiiU is three years old, both had terrible launches & have zero third party support, & seeming neither are going to last five years, who is going to invest in the NX handheld/home console?
Nintendo cannot make a console as powerful or more powerful than the X1/PS4 cheaper than MS or Sony, i know Nintendo has a new partner for the online system, but they are still far behind (i know we haven't seen anything yet) but it cannot be better than PSN+ (which i think it now better than LIVE) if it's going to be free.
If you love Nintendo games & do not yet have a WiiU then when the NX is announced & it turns out to be a WiiU replacement then that is the time to buy a WiiU, you will have access to all the Nintendo first party franchise games in glorious HD many in 1080p & 60fps, how can these games be any better;
Mario Kart 8
Donkey Kong - Tropical Freeze
New Super Mario Bros U
Zelda - Wind Waker HD
Super Mario 3D World
Pikmin 3
Super Smash Bros U
Kirby - Rainbow Paintbrush
Yoshi's - Woolly World
then you have;
W101
ZombiU
Bayonetta 2
Hyrule Warriors
Capt Toad - Treasure Tracker
What could be done to improve on these games, most of which have received critical acclaim?
Unless the NX (if home console) is going to be something that can output at 4k 60+fps native or have some sort of VR ability's that is going to cost no more than £50/£75 than the PS4/X1 i cannot see how any further improvements can be made, Nintendo had a hard job with moving to HD, could they seeming bypass HD & move to the next level, i know Nintendo have pulled things out of the bag before, but gaming is a completely different landscape now, its a different planet if not solar system.
My (launch) WiiU is not even three years old & it's being replaced, i don't think so, are Nintendo going to give me a half price discount if this is a new home console?
All i can say is this 'supply chains gearing up' (NX) had better be the "Third Pillar/Quality of Life" platform.
The 3DS is only four years old & the WiiU is three years old, both had terrible launches & have zero third party support, & seeming neither are going to last five years, who is going to invest in the NX handheld/home console?
Nintendo cannot make a console as powerful or more powerful than the X1/PS4 cheaper than MS or Sony, i know Nintendo has a new partner for the online system, but they are still far behind (i know we haven't seen anything yet) but it cannot be better than PSN+ (which i think it now better than LIVE) if it's going to be free.
If you love Nintendo games & do not yet have a WiiU then when the NX is announced & it turns out to be a WiiU replacement then that is the time to buy a WiiU, you will have access to all the Nintendo first party franchise games in glorious HD many in 1080p & 60fps, how can these games be any better;
Mario Kart 8
Donkey Kong - Tropical Freeze
New Super Mario Bros U
Zelda - Wind Waker HD
Super Mario 3D World
Pikmin 3
Super Smash Bros U
Kirby - Rainbow Paintbrush
Yoshi's - Woolly World
then you have;
W101
ZombiU
Bayonetta 2
Hyrule Warriors
Capt Toad - Treasure Tracker
What could be done to improve on these games, most of which have received critical acclaim?
Unless the NX (if home console) is going to be something that can output at 4k 60+fps native or have some sort of VR ability's that is going to cost no more than £50/£75 than the PS4/X1 i cannot see how any further improvements can be made, Nintendo had a hard job with moving to HD, could they seeming bypass HD & move to the next level, i know Nintendo have pulled things out of the bag before, but gaming is a completely different landscape now, its a different planet if not solar system.
The NX as a handheld will likely be whatever resolution it can support; big mistake with the Vita is it should have been 480p. Probably right to remember the Vita launched in early 2012; at the same price as a 3DS for the time. So not insane Nintendo could push for a higher resolution - will need to be 720p for the hybrid idea to be correct (this ofc not being a rumour, just a natural adaption of the Wii Us offscreen concept).
If Nintendo are merging their handheld and console techs, then I think the NX will also support 3DS games in the sense MS are doing with the Xbox One. I struggle to see B/C being front and centre when Nintendo are going to need to be creative, powerful whilst being fiscally conservative.
If Nintendo are merging their handheld and console techs, then I think the NX will also support 3DS games in the sense MS are doing with the Xbox One. I struggle to see B/C being front and centre when Nintendo are going to need to be creative, powerful whilst being fiscally conservative.
brothers sounds closer than PS4/Vita - more like ipad/iphone, and iwata has referenced ios as well I think? But you're right that a literal hybrid may require too much compromise for either the handheld or home console.
Will be interesting to see.
AcademicSaucer
Member
I think they have dev kits for some of those reasons too, they are hinting a new handheld out of the blue and they were on the 3ds at launch, and if the rumors are true, the new nintendo hardware launches next year.
didnt he talk about resolution before also? so does add some confusion
Indeed he did.
So its clearly a PS4++ handheld with a 4k resolution 27" screen (dual screen, of course). All for the low, low price of 2000$.