Erin S Kittens
Member
What even is this response. Certainly not to anything I said.
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Drag queens banned from Pride event 'because they may offend transgender people'
- Thread starter Izuna
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What even is this response. Certainly not to anything I said.
A Link to the Past
Banned
There's unfortunately some really awkward turmoil going on in LGBT+ stuff regarding this. I believe it really got traction when trans people went after Ru Paul for using the word shemale. I can understand what lead to a decision like this. That said, I don't know nearly enough about drag queen culture to talk about it beyond that.
The phrasing in this post is really not great. Unless you're mixing together "someone who is physically male" and "someone who identifies as the female gender" - which you shouldn't be doing - it can be taken to mean "men who think they're women."
The phrasing in this post is really not great. Unless you're mixing together "someone who is physically male" and "someone who identifies as the female gender" - which you shouldn't be doing - it can be taken to mean "men who think they're women."
Shuggananas
Banned
That's real fucking smart damn
And a lot of LGB feel that T shouldn't be involved since it sets public acceptance back, but Pride is about acceptance for all. This isn't.
It's not ENTITLEMENT, it's calling this event out for putting their own agenda before others which should have no place in an event like this.
If people turn up in drag at this event, you want them to be allowed to join, watch etc. right? Not excluded right? Except this banning of them going on stage or performance or whatever, is because they feel that trans are offended by drag. So instead of encouraging acceptance within the group (which I hope you want too right?), they are condoning the unacceptance of some trans folk who don't like drag.
Yeah, right.
You are speaking about trans people being unconfortable with drag queens.
Its not dragphobia, the drag performers arent being discriminated against, they just aren't having their acts featured at a trans specific event, they are not banned from attending.
This is like electing not to feature a comedian who does jokes about trans people, on stage at a trans event. Drag is a performance meant to parody gender and joke about it, it subversive humor which is fine and has its time and place.
Drag people dont live their lives like that, they are performers (mainly cismen), its not an identity
I don't think anybody doing drag is trying to mock trangendered people.
One of the more important queer theory ideas is that gender is mostly performative, both in the sense that who you have sex with doesn't depend on your genitals, and in the sense that the patriarchy projects a lot of behavioral expectations on you based on your genitals that aren't actually fundamental in any biological sense.
A lot of queer groups, behaviors, etc. are interrogations of this idea -- taking some section of patriarchal male/female behavior patterns, whether you're slicing in a traditional or nontraditional sense, and expressing your personal gender using those behaviors. Arguably it's even central to being transgendered (though obviously transgendered people are born with a gender that doesn't match their body).
Drag queens are just a pretty aggressive exploration of this concept. If gender is mostly performative, then you should be able to put it on and take it off like a wig. That's why RuPaul is a she in the dress and a he in the suit.
I don't think it really relates directly to being transgendered at all -- one is something you're born with, one is a profession/lifestyle you adopt.
I agree that if this is a Trans Pride event then cis drag queens maybe aren't super appropriate?
That's discrimination.
"We don't want you to perform because you make us feel unconfortable with your looks and what you represent.". How is that not discrimination?
A Link to the Past
Banned
I mean, would I be discriminating if I did not allow someone I felt didn't properly represent trans people at a transgender event?
Erin S Kittens
Member
A lot of the LGB forget their history--there would be no Pride without trans women of color fighting back against the police in the 50s and 60s.
It's entitlement for people to raise such a huge fuss about this event not hiring cisgender drag queens for this trans-focused Pride. Have you ever been to Pride? The stage isn't just open to anyone, they pay performers--it's part of the corporatization of Pride, which is another thing this event in particular stands again. They're not encouraging the rejection of drag, they're rejecting transmisogyny, and rightfully so.
I'm speaking about trans people being uncomfortable with transmisogyny.
I'm sorry but this is some ignorance.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Ignorance? I don't know much about drag queen culture, but I'm pretty darn sure that the idea that drag queens are most often cis men is true.
Father_Brain
Banned
Banning cis drag performers strikes me as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
That said, drag absolutely does have a transphobia and misogyny problem, and I'm troubled by how many gay men I know would reflexively and vehemently deny this.
That said, drag absolutely does have a transphobia and misogyny problem, and I'm troubled by how many gay men I know would reflexively and vehemently deny this.
Chainsawkitten
Member
Unless it's open mic night, I wouldn't expect to be able to perform on stage at any event I attended, in drag or without.
Well yes, of course. They are not doing any harm. If anything, drag queens are more often than not very supportive of the LGBT community.
NullPointer
Member
It sure reads as if they're choosing to reject any perceived transmisogyny in their paid performances by rejecting drag performances as a whole.
Yes they are...
Honestly I feel that this trans event shouldn't be allowed be call itself Pride anything if it is blatantly implying that it is okay for trans to be made uncomfortable by drag.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
now this is a thread for some confused, wtf and or mind blown .gifs
Erin S Kittens
Member
Cisgender drag queens are, more often than not, transmisogynistic and profiting from it. In my local Pride, you can see lots of cis drag queens telling shitty, hurtful jokes about trans people and getting paid for it, while transgender orgs aren't even allowed a booth at the event.
It sure sounds like you don't know much about the issue, considering they're hiring trans drag queens.
Fixed that for you.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Even ones who may do performances that are considered transmisogynistic? Or, as I cited earlier, a cis man like Ru Paul using bigoted terms like shemale?
You're really twisting this away from what people are actually saying into "look, the true bigots!" shenanigans.
Yes, exactly my point.
They could ban those particular performances if they want. But right now, they are banning ALL drag queen performances.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Hmm, what does this sound like? Oh that's right.
"You can just not fuck people of the same gender, you don't have to be gay"
"You can just not be the opposite gender, just live with the body god gave you"
My post was specifically in regards to your assertion that any performers present at the event would be specifically paid. I've seen no evidence that anyone is being paid to be there and given the fact that the selling point of this event is its anti-coporateness (the event page specifically mentions the organizer "having no money"), I doubt this is the case.
excelsiorlef
Member
And tranny.
Both without attempting even a modicum of understanding the transgender position.
Ru Paul basically said fuck y'all it's not a slur ever.
Captain Europe
Member
Well said, I think there's definitely a discussion to be had without completely dismissing the feelings of transgender individuals, I'm sure they aren't feeling like this for the lulz.
Erin S Kittens
Member
Whether or not they're being paid (I'm not entirely sure), even receiving a platform is a special privilege. It's not open mic up there.
Not the part I am calling ignorant. But that fact that drag is just a comedic thing that doesn't seem to warrant the same sort of fight for acceptance as trans. It's implying that T is more serious than Q. Which I have posted so often in the thread already so I want to drop it a final time.
Saying that Q is just "dress-up" is complete bullshit.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Yes, because drag queen performances are often transmisogynistic. Would it be discrimination if they didn't want cishet guys performing at the event? Perhaps, but who cares?
Q is far from being merely drag queen culture. Can't it simply be a response to a history of problematic performances by drag queens rather than "showing their hypocrisy" or something? Can't trans people host a trans event and be able to decide that they only want trans performers for it?
This isn't about Trans people saying 'ewwwwww Drag.'
This is about drag performers consistently and repeatedly going out of there way to make Transphobic jokes, and Trans people declining to give them a platform this time.
Why are people refusing to get this?
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Why are obsessed with throwing the baby out with the bath. Your statements are very offensive , you don't go blaming and wanting the removal of all Drag Queens because of the actions of some, same with any group either.
The only way such a stance would be remotely justifiable (and that's iffy) is if you could prove most Drag Queen performances and transmisogynistic.
Erin S Kittens
Member
What do you think the Q stands for, exactly?
NullPointer
Member
I'm certainly no expert in these waters, but I was speaking to their original statement and its reasoning.
HUELEN10
Member
Indeed, we are still a long ways away from that sadly. communication and respect is key, and it will come in time.
ALL of them? Besides, if they are truly, TRULY proud of being who they are, why do they feel so uncomfortable or offended by jokes?
Gonzo The Great
Banned
You're making a generalization about an entire group of people. Stop. Discrimination shouldn't be tolerated. Period. Drag is a lifestyle choice, not a set of beliefs.
Netherscourge
Banned
And how, pray tell, will you tell the difference between someone in drag vs. a transgendered person wearing gender-opposite clothing?
And how many transgendered people will wear flashy outfits just for the heck of it?
This literally makes zero sense.
Good luck enforcing it, btw.
And how many transgendered people will wear flashy outfits just for the heck of it?
This literally makes zero sense.
Good luck enforcing it, btw.
A Link to the Past
Banned
So trans people have to be all-inclusive despite not only not being included in society, but often not even being included in the LGBT movement? It is not a radical idea that trans people should be able to have an event operated by trans people.
In the same way that it's discrimination if you exclude white people from speaking at a black power rally, or if you exclude men from a group meant for female abuse victims. It's a kind of discrimination that exists not out of hate for another group, but with the safety and well-being of your own group in mind.
46 years ago, transgender people and drag queens were rioting together in NYC to be able to just "live".
Now we're reduced to this. Sometimes I really think perspectives have become skewed as fuck. And I mean that from all sides. The more I think about this, the more I'm becoming depressed by the LGBT+ community. We don't need "them" to tear us apart anymore - we're doing a relatively good job ourselves.
Bravo, kids.
Now we're reduced to this. Sometimes I really think perspectives have become skewed as fuck. And I mean that from all sides. The more I think about this, the more I'm becoming depressed by the LGBT+ community. We don't need "them" to tear us apart anymore - we're doing a relatively good job ourselves.
Bravo, kids.
Uh...drag is a lot more than putting on a dress. I don't really see this as even remotely a problem.
As an outsider, I'm guessing trans people are offended by drag queens because being one sex during your 9-5 job and then dressing up as the other is a lot different than being forced to live inside of a body you don't identify with?
Is this correct?
If I'm wrong, please educate me.
Is this correct?
If I'm wrong, please educate me.
Erin S Kittens
Member
If discrimination shouldn't be tolerated, most Pride events should probably stop giving money and a platform to cis drag queens who stand on stage and make anti-trans jokes. I've witnessed it at every Pride I've been to.
They're not banning cis drag queens from the event, they're simply choosing not to prioritize them with a performance platform.
Trans people are often offended by cis drag queens because anti-trans sentiment has become a large part of the performance and culture.
"Who cares"? Who cares about discrimination? Dear lord...
Monocle
Member
That's incredibly dumb. Drag is a form of performance art. There's usually a heightened element to it, a bit of a wink that gives the audience permission to be amused. And when the camp factor is downplayed, the result can be truly elegant female illusion. How in the world could that demean your status as a woman? Drag is celebratory, if anything. At least from what I've seen.
I would be very surprised to hear of a drag performer showing up at a pride event with disrespectful intentions.
I would be very surprised to hear of a drag performer showing up at a pride event with disrespectful intentions.
Look I already understand that your stand-point. I'm saying it's not at all fair.
YES, some trans are offended by drag. No one is disputing that. What you are doing however, and I suppose is done by the people who complained to make this decision happen, is basically shitting on drag and saying that it is offensive.
I really equate this to being just like a pastor (who is not homophobic) saying that since he is also scheduled to marry heterosexual Christians that day, he can't marry the homosexual couple on the same day.
Notice how the people complaining about this, aren't the proposed people who would have been performing otherwise, but people who hear that there is a pride event out there that basically says it "understand that within LBGTQ... some dislike each other so we're going to separate their expressions because they don't yet fully accept each other."
And no, allowing trans drag to perform doesn't solve the issue. This event isn't inclusive at all in this sense.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
If by all inclusive you mean not discriminating against people then yes. Just because you've been oppressed doesn't mean you should go around using the same thought process's that led to your oppression (some drag queens are bad therefore all drag queens are bad). The same goes for everything, otherwise your simply perpetuating a never ending circle. It may not be easy but eventually something has to give.
DragonSworne
Banned
Why is it okay for Trans people to discriminate? Why is their offense greater than than offending the drag life style?
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