Mhm
I dislike to say this, but how is forcing your enemy to surrender worse than raping and burning down villages? Japan was the one who attacked first.
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The Nanking Massacre By the Imperial Japanase was the worst war crime in WW2.
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Mhm
I dislike to say this, but how is forcing your enemy to surrender worse than raping and burning down villages? Japan was the one who attacked first.
We had Gaffers specifically defending that unit. In a thread about celebrating the Yamato and mourning the loss of its crew, someone pointed out it was as distasteful as mourning the loss of the Bismarck. Several people jumped immediately jumped in saying Japan didn't do anything that bad. Every single one of them had anime avatars...
That isn't really tying the numbers to any specific cause and doesn't identify excess cases from ones you would expect. But while there is generally an increased cancer risk for survivors, it's due to damage done at the time. There's no lingering radioactivity.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
It's a close call whether the Nazis or Imperial Japan are the more reprehensible state. People forget sometimes that Hitler actually respected Japan for their purity and martial virtue. The Allies did some repugnant shit, too, but anybody who would assert they are as or almost as bad is a historical dummy.
Edit: ugh, and the anti-atom bomb brigade. Because an invasion of mainland Japan, which was Plan B and which they were absolutely preparing for, no matter what revisionist morons might say otherwise, would have been so much better.
Edit: ugh, and the anti-atom bomb brigade. Because an invasion of mainland Japan, which was Plan B and which they were absolutely preparing for, no matter what revisionist morons might say otherwise, would have been so much better.
BearFlexington
Member
Just checking.
8 X 11 Printer Paper
Member
More ironic was that I'm pretty sure the guy defending it had a Kantai Collection avvy, which are literally humanized Japanese WW2 ships.
sketchsanchez
Member
For the record, I do understand why it was done and why they felt it had to be done but I still think its pretty fucked up.
Guess the point is all of this shit was fucked up and you can't really "rank them" nor should we.
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Operation_Downfall#/Estimated_casualties
And before you bring up Japan surrendering without the bombs. This happened after they were dropped. http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Kyūjō_incident
once I recently found out that the composer for the dragon quest series was a nanking denier I was filled with disgust, can't look at his work the same way again. This is exacerbated by the fact that he also is one of those revisionist history people.
I agree that it was a horrible war crime but like others don't think it should be ranked as the worst as the different war crimes were all irredeemable for different reasons
I agree that it was a horrible war crime but like others don't think it should be ranked as the worst as the different war crimes were all irredeemable for different reasons
kame-sennin
Member
Yeah, ranking them is an ugly thing to do. We can simply discuss the cluster of atrocities that occurred in that era and how tragic it was; Nanking, the Holocaust, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Stalingrad, unfortunately the list goes on.
Gabriel_Logan
Member
This could be considered ignorance since its not a wide known atrocity like the holocaust. I doubt anyone was actually defending Unit 731?
MasterOfPastures
Banned
WW2 had atrocities and butcheries committed by every side, although the scale and intentions varied.
What is striking, is the historical interpretations and consequences that followed after the war. Germany outlawed every Nazi symbol, made denying the holocaust a crime, and is still paying reparations to some countries. The general population has assimilated the responsibility of these events, and that in turn has made them better individuals in regards to how they see conflict and dissenting opinions.
Japan, on the other hand, is at turns ignorant or willfully obstinate about it's role in the war, always trying to pose themselves as victims. The modern youth has, by and large, no idea of what happened in WW2 or what their country did. Major politicians deny the slavery of comfort women, they deny the Nanjing massacre, they wave away their colonial suppression of Korea and China, the untold butcheries of occupied territories.
That lack of understanding, of responsibility for those crimes, and the fear and ignorance to face them, is the worst kind of crime.
What is striking, is the historical interpretations and consequences that followed after the war. Germany outlawed every Nazi symbol, made denying the holocaust a crime, and is still paying reparations to some countries. The general population has assimilated the responsibility of these events, and that in turn has made them better individuals in regards to how they see conflict and dissenting opinions.
Japan, on the other hand, is at turns ignorant or willfully obstinate about it's role in the war, always trying to pose themselves as victims. The modern youth has, by and large, no idea of what happened in WW2 or what their country did. Major politicians deny the slavery of comfort women, they deny the Nanjing massacre, they wave away their colonial suppression of Korea and China, the untold butcheries of occupied territories.
That lack of understanding, of responsibility for those crimes, and the fear and ignorance to face them, is the worst kind of crime.
I agree with that 100% percent.
I also think that strategic bombing is a terrible war crime (as is total war for that matter).
It just seem quite often that any discussion about the atrocities of Imperial Japan (which is something that I think most people in the west are not educated nearly enough about) is quickly diverted to talking about the nuclear bombs.
What Witcher 3 debacle?
minor effort
Banned
I think trying to rank or debate which World War II atrocity is worse is problematic. Attempting to do so almost inherently tries to minimize the human toll of these actions, and lessen the guilt of its actors.
While the atomic bombings were horrific and a stain on human history as a whole, they were considered a necessary evil in making Japan surrender with as little casualties as possible, and that's something I agree with to this day. They were used to shock them into surrender, since the U.S.'s only other alternative into making Japan surrender was to either starve them out slowly or commit to a land invasion, both of which would have likely caused far more death (the land invasion in particular likely would've caused a million+ casualties).
you betcha. Right down to extolling all 731 had done for medical science. He got banned.
I can't think of two more peace loving countries on the planet than modern day Japan and Germany.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Ranking WWII atrocities is probably a bad idea.
But if we were, the atomic bombs don't even break the top 5. Seriously.
I don't like to stereotype, but that thread sticks with me.
But if we were, the atomic bombs don't even break the top 5. Seriously.
I don't like to stereotype, but that thread sticks with me.
There's no boasting or pride, but it is perfectly fine to correct ignorance. To argue that using the bombs was, on balance, more harmful than not using them, ignores reality. You can be sad at that and you should, but to plug your ears and insist it was unreasonable, unjustifiable and/or unthinkable is just incorrect.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I think part of that comes from taking two of the largest war-related Ls to date.
At least in Japan, there are multiple daily protests about keeping a military since if violates one of the articles of (drafted largely by the Occupation) constitution
BTW not sure if the OP is aware of this but today's the 70th anniversary of Hiroshima. Looking to start something? lol
IIRC that's from a violent exploitation film parading itself as a documentary.
Don't post that here
It's possible the Soviets would have invaded Japan, and Japan could have become a communist state.
Perhaps all of Korea as well.
I feel like Nanking is probably the most concentrated war crime of WWII. Others were bigger in scope, certainly, and you can argue which is more heinous or brutal, but the sheer degree of malicious, disgusting, brutal activity that was jammed into six weeks - less than 50 days - is probably unparalleled.
It doesn't quite compare to stuff like firebombing or the atomic bombs, which were certainly callous and inhuman, but lacks the visceral, personal nature of stuff like Nanking. I'm no apologist for Allied war crimes in WWII, but I think there's an important difference between ignoring the civilian cost of your actions and enjoying it. Some of the brutality of the Pacific theater, on both sides, feels significantly crueler to me.
It doesn't quite compare to stuff like firebombing or the atomic bombs, which were certainly callous and inhuman, but lacks the visceral, personal nature of stuff like Nanking. I'm no apologist for Allied war crimes in WWII, but I think there's an important difference between ignoring the civilian cost of your actions and enjoying it. Some of the brutality of the Pacific theater, on both sides, feels significantly crueler to me.
Shadow_Lord
Member
Exactly. They were horrible, but some of the things that went on in WWII is unreal. Horror novels-tier stuff. I still have trouble accepting that some humans were despicable enough to commit them.
Gabriel_Logan
Member
Everything about Unit 731 is disgusting, from the vivisections that took live prisoners and reattached their stomachs to their intestines, to the granting of immunity in exchange for their biological research. It is a black spot on MacArthur's career.
You'd be wrong, of course.
No further discussion is needed. Just a simple dismissal.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Seriously.
The dropping of the atomic bombs was a truly horrific thing. Moreover, it's debatable as to whether they even played a big part in the surrender, as some modern historical analysis of Japan's military leaders has suggested that the declaration of war by Russia was a much bigger concern for them (though Hirohito, who broke the tie in the war council, did mention the atom bombs prominently in his rationale, so it's hard to say).
In the end, though, looking at the rather limp "surrenders" that Japan was offering, the "to the last man" fanaticism that they had example after example of throughout the war, the probable human costs of an invasion of mainland Japan (on which women and children were being trained for what was basically kamikaze warfare, btw), and the likely outrage were it discovered after the war that we had spent so much time and money developing a weapon that we never even tried to use, there simply is not a reality where the bombs do not get dropped. tbh, where to drop the bomb was a far bigger topic of debate than whether to drop them.
Fucking animals. They even experimented on humans, some involving rape and genital mutilation to innocent girls and women. I'm sure some of these cretin are still alive.
The basest aspects of man are always exposed during war. It's scary to think of what an average person is capable of; it's scary to think what I would be capable of under the right circumstances.
It's easy to think that something like this can't happen again in modern times, but I just know it will and it pisses me off.
The basest aspects of man are always exposed during war. It's scary to think of what an average person is capable of; it's scary to think what I would be capable of under the right circumstances.
It's easy to think that something like this can't happen again in modern times, but I just know it will and it pisses me off.
I don't believe that the ends justify the means. I think it's fine to correct ignorance. But I think justifying atrocious actions are just as bad if not worse even if the utility calculus comes out in your favour. I think it's a silly argument to get into anyway which is why I edited it out out.
There are a few actually
As someone who knows a lot about burn injuries, I would say firebombings were the worst crimes of WWII. Third degree burn injuries are horrifying, they're basically unrecoverable. Skin cannot heal from these injuries and you basically have no protection left at all for the nerves beneath the thin scar tissue. Even 20 years later, people who survived significant burn injuries describe a life of pure agony. They feel as if they constantly have a mild acid that's been poured on them and they can't get it off. The thought of having to do basic day to day activities like walking fills them with dread. People with significant burn injuries of over half their body usually wish they had just died instead.
Nowadays we have advanced techniques to recover from burn injuries, like tissue expansion or skin grafting. But back in the 1940's you were just out of luck. At least with most other WWII war crimes people were either outright killed, or they survived near starvation or a death march and were able to recover and have some hope for a normal life. If you were badly burned however you only had a half life left in front of you.
Nowadays we have advanced techniques to recover from burn injuries, like tissue expansion or skin grafting. But back in the 1940's you were just out of luck. At least with most other WWII war crimes people were either outright killed, or they survived near starvation or a death march and were able to recover and have some hope for a normal life. If you were badly burned however you only had a half life left in front of you.
Japan surrendered because of the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. The biggest fear was that Japan would become a soviet vassal state.
Hari Seldon
Member
Nanking was like a throwback to war atrocities of the 12th century. You could have had Genghis there and it wouldn't have looked out of place.
There are several big ones, including the fact that the alternative, a conventional invasion of Japan, would have been many times deadlier. You could also argue that without those two horrific bombings, the world would not be so cowed by nuclear weapons that they have helped to keep the peace between the major powers for 70 odd years.
speculawyer
Member
I don't understand the mutual exclusive view between atrocity and justifiable. When the police shoot some crazy guy wielding a knife, it can be both justifiable and a tragedy. Same with a war atrocity. Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast "Logical Insanity" is an interesting exploration of this topic.
RedProwlingDevil
Banned
I wonder if people realize the Germans "perfected" on the the Jewish people what the started almost 30 years earlier in Africa...sigh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide
Again, I don't think that ranking the horrors of WWII is particularly useful, but the fire bombings were pure nightmare stuff.
The Fire by Jorg Friedrich is a really good book on the subject for anyone who is interested.
It's a silly way to look at things. Take an action that kills x, or don't take an action and kill x*y, where y is greater than 1. There is no other option. It doesn't take a whole lot of thinking to realize there is a clear morally correct choice.
That was not their biggest fear, and we know that because we have their communications. Regardless, the only reason they did surrender is because the emperor stepped in after the second bomb and made the decision. The leaders didn't want to do it, and a coup was launched in response to the emperor's decision.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
There's much argument about this. Hirohito, himself, was the deciding vote in Japan's surrender, and he explicitly mentioned the atomic bombings in his address to the Japanese people.
Regardless, the USA, operating on the intelligence they had at the time, believed the atomic bombings to be a necessary act, given the potential they had to bring the war to a close before what would likely have been a bloody invasion of mainland Japan - and, yes, the Soviets were a huge concern, as well, though given their damnable lack of regard for the lives of their own people, during the war, and their treatment of German citizens and soldiers on the march to Berlin, this probably was not an unfounded fear, when you combine the high probability of a long-term occupation by Russia after the war. Shit, would another East/West Germany in the Pacific have been a good thing, do people think?
Speculator
BioWare Austin
For clarification, those numbers are from one city alone in a matter of months. My grandmother survived that period of time in Nanjing. The recollections she shared while we stood by the banks of the Yangtze River together shook me to the core. The total loss of human life of noncombatants by the Imperial Japanese is estimated between 5 million to 20+ million. Ultimately, the appalling atrocities that led to the immense loss of life under the Axis powers is undeniable.
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