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The Nanking Massacre By the Imperial Japanase was the worst war crime in WW2.

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My maternal grandmother survived Nanking. Her family tied a bag to her back, filled it with all the silverware they could find, pushed her out the door and told her to run just as the Japanese started arriving. Everyone in her family was slaughtered but her.

When I came into the picture, she used to bounce me on her knee and pretend none of it ever happened. She always told me to be careful of the Japanese in a fairly off-handed way, but I wasn't told any of the details until after she died.

I don't know how she, or my family, made their peace with it. I have trouble just writing about it now.
 

jerry1594

Member
I think not wanting the Soviets to get a hold of Japan is partially what caused the widespread atrocity denial today. Nationalism was allowed and no policy similar to denazification was put in place.
 

Chichikov

Member
I wonder if people realize the Germans "perfected" on the the Jewish people what the started almost 30 years earlier in Africa...sigh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide
Well Germany did recognize it as a genocide. Last month...

I think not wanting the Soviets to get a hold of Japan is what caused the widespread atrocity denial today. Nationalism was allowed and no policy similar to denazification was put in place.
It was more than allowed, it was bankrolled by the CIA.
 

whipihguh

Banned
Japan surrendered because of the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. The biggest fear was that Japan would become a soviet vassal state.

Both were integral factors in Japan's surrender, but the atomic bomb more so. The Emperor spoke pretty prominently about the atomic bomb in his surrender speech.
 

Ecotic

Member
Both were integral factors in Japan's surrender, but the atomic bomb more so. The Emperor spoke pretty prominently about the atomic bomb in his surrender speech.

I'm not sure about this particularly speech, but I know the Japanese told the Americans what they wanted to believe in regards to the significance of the atomic bombings to gain favor with them and gain some sense of being a weaker opponent brought to their knees by the brutality of a stronger opponent. Both sides benefited, the Americans got to play up their new wonder weapon and the Japanese got the victim label.
 

Savitar

Member
Everything I've seen or read does suggest the nuclear bombs did make Japan surrender, they were truly willing to fight to the very last. They were training school children, even girls to fight near the very end. The military aspect of the Japanese wanted to go down with their honor, anything less was unacceptable. The first bomb definitely shocked them but they didn't believe the allies had another. The second one was what finally pushed enough to say, okay we got to do or we're just going to be vaporized where is the pride and honor in that. Even then they had to do everything in secret since many would have sabotaged any attempt at surrender. And some tried to make sure it wouldn't happen.

Dropping the bomb was no doubt a horrible heinous act, one that should never be repeated. But I got no doubt if they had not been used and it had been fought as normal the amount of people and pure destruction would have been worse. Talking about mass suicides and everything.

The horrors men do. And the horrors they're sometimes forced to do.
 

KorrZ

Member
The Japanese were willing to surrender with some assurances. If anything, it was the completely unnecessary demand for unconditional surrender that led to the use of the atomic bombs. Whether the atomic bombs were necessary for Japan's surrender ultimately, or if the Soviet entry into the war would have pushed them over the edge anyways is so hotly debated that trying to claim one way or the other on NeoGAF is pointless.
 

kess

Member
Here was the situation in China at the end of World War II. The red area represents millions of Japanese troops. A retreat on their own terms would have been some horrid, horrid shit.

Situation_at_the_End_of_World_War_Two.PNG
 
Why is this myth still perpetuated that Japan surrendered because of the USA and its dropping of the atomic bombs? They were already on the road to surrendering when the Soviet Army decimated them in Manchuria/North East Asia, wiping out a huge chunk of the Kwantung Army.

The meeting held by Japanese officials to determine whether or not surrender happened on August 9th, the same day the Nagasaki bomb was dropped but before news had reached them. That was also the same day the Soviet offensive began.

I do think the atomic bomb was a great 'help' in the end, but it wasn't the cause of the Japanese surrender. The Soviets were, no matter what western history books try to tell you.
 

whipihguh

Banned
I'm not sure about this particularly speech, but I know the Japanese told the Americans what they wanted to believe in regards to the significance of the atomic bombings to gain favor with them and gain some sense of being a weaker opponent brought to their knees by the brutality of a stronger opponent. Both sides benefited, the Americans got to play up their new wonder weapon and the Japanese got the victim label.

You have any sources to back these claims up? I'd be happy to read them if so.

Everything I've seen or read does suggest the nuclear bombs did make Japan surrender, they were truly willing to fight to the very last. They were training school children, even girls to fight near the very end. The military aspect of the Japanese wanted to go down with their honor, anything less was unacceptable. The first bomb definitely shocked them but they didn't believe the allies had another. The second one was what finally pushed enough to say, okay we got to do or we're just going to be vaporized where is the pride and honor in that. Even then they had to do everything in secret since many would have sabotaged any attempt at surrender. And some tried to make sure it wouldn't happen.

Dropping the bomb was no doubt a horrible heinous act, one that should never be repeated. But I got no doubt if they had not been used and it had been fought as normal the amount of people and pure destruction would have been worse. Talking about mass suicides and everything.

The horrors men do. And the horrors they're sometimes forced to do.
I agree wholeheartedly.
 

Azuran

Banned
Everything about WW2 was the worst. It says a lot when dropping two atomic bombs and killing millions of innocent civilians has competition for the worst atrocities in that war.
 

Piecake

Member
The Japanese were willing to surrender with some assurances. If anything, it was the completely unnecessary demand for unconditional surrender that led to the use of the atomic bombs. Whether the atomic bombs were necessary for Japan's surrender ultimately, or if the Soviet entry into the war would have pushed them over the edge anyways is so hotly debated that trying to claim one way or the other on NeoGAF is pointless.

A staple of Hiroshima Revisionism has been the contention that the government of Japan was prepared to surrender during the summer of 1945, with the sole proviso that its sacred emperor be retained. President Harry S. Truman and those around him knew this through intercepted Japanese diplomatic messages, the story goes, but refused to extend such an assurance because they wanted the war to continue until atomic bombs became available. The real purpose of using the bombs was not to defeat an already-defeated Japan, but to give the United States a club to use against the Soviet Union. Thus Truman purposely slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Japanese, not to mention untold thousands of other Asians and Allied servicemen who would perish as the war needlessly ground on, primarily to gain diplomatic advantage.

One might think that compelling substantiation would be necessary to support such a monstrous charge, but the revisionists have been unable to provide a single example from Japanese sources. What they have done instead amounts to a variation on the old shell game. They state in their own prose that the Japanese were trying to surrender without citing any evidence and, to show that Truman was aware of their efforts, cite his diary entry of July 18 referring to a “telegram from Jap Emperor asking for peace.” There it is! The smoking gun! But it is nothing of the sort. The message Truman cited did not refer to anything even remotely resembling surrender. It referred instead to the Japanese foreign office’s attempt (under the suspicious eyes of the military) to persuade the Soviet Union to broker a negotiated peace that would have permitted the Japanese to retain their prewar empire and their imperial system (not just the emperor) intact. No American president could have accepted such a settlement, as it would have meant abandoning the United States’ most basic war aims.

An exchange I had with two revisionists, Martin Sherwin and Kai Bird, is revealing. In the December 2007 issue of Passport (newsletter of the Society for Historians of American Foreign Relations), I published a short critique of their Pulitzer Prize-winning American Prometheus: the Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer. Among other things, I accused them of resorting to “semantic jugglery” in falsely equating Truman’s diary reference to “peace” with “surrender,” and pointed out that they had failed to provide “even a wisp of evidence” that Japan was trying to surrender. In their response, Sherwin and Bird in turn accused me of dismissing a “huge body of distinguished scholarship,” but again failed to include a single example of such evidence.

In particular, Sherwin and Bird berated me for failing to refer to Tsuyoshi Hasegawa’s Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the Surrender of Japan. “Hasegawa’s research into Soviet and Japanese archives,” they wrote, “is replete with massive new and important ‘wisps’ of evidence about the causes of Japan’s surrender. It seems telling to us that his work is ignored.” What Sherwin and Bird apparently did not know, or hoped their readers did not know, was that although Hasegawa agreed with revisionists on a number of issues he explicitly rejected the early surrender thesis. Indeed, Hasegawa in no uncertain terms wrote that “Without the twin shocks of the atomic bombs and the Soviet entry into the war, the Japanese never would have surrendered in August.” So much for the “massive new and important ‘wisps’ of evidence.”

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/52502
 
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Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I'm not sure about this particularly speech, but I know the Japanese told the Americans what they wanted to believe in regards to the significance of the atomic bombings to gain favor with them and gain some sense of being a weaker opponent brought to their knees by the brutality of a stronger opponent. Both sides benefited, the Americans got to play up their new wonder weapon and the Japanese got the victim label.

It was in the Gyokuon-hōsō, which was a pre-recorded speech by the emperor himself broadcast to Japanese citizens, announcing that he ordered the Japanese Imperial government to fully accept the Potsdam Declaration. In it, the emperor directly mentions the atomic bombs.

Why is this myth still perpetuated that Japan surrendered because of the USA and its dropping of the atomic bombs? They were already on the road to surrendering when the Soviet Army decimated them in Manchuria/North East Asia, wiping out a huge chunk of the Kwantung Army.

The meeting held by Japanese officials to determine whether or not surrender happened on August 9th, the same day the Nagasaki bomb was dropped but before news had reached them. That was also the same day the Soviet offensive began.

I do think the atomic bomb was a great 'help' in the end, but it wasn't the cause of the Japanese surrender. The Soviets were, no matter what western history books try to tell you.

It's not a myth, because it's what actually happened. Sure, they were well on the path to working on a way out of the war, but full acceptance of the Potsdam Declaration (unconditional surrender) probably wasn't the first choice.
 

Ecotic

Member
You have any sources to back these claims up? I'd be happy to read them if so.

Foreign Policy article

Despite the existence of these three powerful objections, the traditional interpretation still retains a strong hold on many people’s thinking, particularly in the United States. There is real resistance to looking at the facts. But perhaps this should not be surprising. It is worth reminding ourselves how emotionally convenient the traditional explanation of Hiroshima is — both for Japan and the United States. Ideas can have persistence because they are true, but unfortunately, they can also persist because they are emotionally satisfying: They fill an important psychic need. For example, at the end of the war the traditional interpretation of Hiroshima helped Japan’s leaders achieve a number of important political aims, both domestic and international.

Put yourself in the shoes of the emperor. You’ve just led your country through a disastrous war. The economy is shattered. Eighty percent of your cities have been bombed and burned. The Army has been pummeled in a string of defeats. The Navy has been decimated and confined to port. Starvation is looming. The war, in short, has been a catastrophe and, worst of all, you’ve been lying to your people about how bad the situation really is. They will be shocked by news of surrender. So which would you rather do? Admit that you failed badly? Issue a statement that says that you miscalculated spectacularly, made repeated mistakes, and did enormous damage to the nation? Or would you rather blame the loss on an amazing scientific breakthrough that no one could have predicted? At a single stroke, blaming the loss of the war on the atomic bomb swept all the mistakes and misjudgments of the war under the rug. The Bomb was the perfect excuse for having lost the war. No need to apportion blame; no court of enquiry need be held. Japan’s leaders were able to claim they had done their best. So, at the most general level the Bomb served to deflect blame from Japan’s leaders.

But attributing Japan’s defeat to the Bomb also served three other specific political purposes. First, it helped to preserve the legitimacy of the emperor. If the war was lost not because of mistakes but because of the enemy’s unexpected miracle weapon, then the institution of the emperor might continue to find support within Japan.

Second, it appealed to international sympathy. Japan had waged war aggressively, and with particular brutality toward conquered peoples. Its behavior was likely to be condemned by other nations. Being able to recast Japan as a victimized nation — one that had been unfairly bombed with a cruel and horrifying instrument of war — would help to offset some of the morally repugnant things Japan’s military had done. Drawing attention to the atomic bombings helped to paint Japan in a more sympathetic light and deflect support for harsh punishment.

Finally, saying that the Bomb won the war would please Japan’s American victors. The American occupation did not officially end in Japan until 1952, and during that time the United States had the power to change or remake Japanese society as they saw fit. During the early days of the occupation, many Japanese officials worried that the Americans intended to abolish the institution of the emperor. And they had another worry. Many of Japan’s top government officials knew that they might face war crimes trials (the war crimes trials against Germany’s leaders were already underway in Europe when Japan surrendered). Japanese historian Asada Sadao has said that in many of the postwar interviews "Japanese officials… were obviously anxious to please their American questioners." If the Americans wanted to believe that the Bomb won the war, why disappoint them?
 

Opto

Banned
City of Life and Death is a movie that should be watched. I recall the director talking on NPR on how he interviewed Japanese veterans that did not regret their actions. It's a movie that doesn't hold back
 

Wynnebeck

Banned
Neither the holocaust nor the massacre of Nanking are still giving prople cancer.

The systematic killing of over 6 million people in Europe and hundreds of thousand tortured and killed in Japan versus two bombs that wiped out two cities. Sorry, I don't want to turn this into a contest, but the atomic bombs are nowhere near Nanking and the Holocaust.
 
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Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
The systematic killing of over 6 million people in Europe and hundreds of thousand tortured and killed in Japan versus two bombs that wiped out two cities. Sorry, I don't want to turn this into a contest, but the atomic bombs are nowhere near Nanking and the Holocaust.

Actually, I think you do... by the very fact that you are doing a sheer numbers comparison as your criteria for which are "worse."
 
Actually, I think you do... by the very fact that you are doing a sheer numbers comparison as your criteria for which are "worse."

Do you have a better metric? All such mass deaths are horrific, but the very nature of warfare, itself, depends on a life and death-based calculus. I think almost every human being on the planet would choose a disaster in which 500,000 human beings were killed over a disaster in which 10x that number were killed, barring the clouding factors of personal bias. I'm all for sensitivity, but I can't see how a humanist ethical framework can avoid the conclusion that less death is preferable to more death, assuming a relative parity in the quality of life experienced by those who survive it.
 

Wynnebeck

Banned
Actually, I think you do... by the very fact that you are doing a sheer numbers comparison as your criteria for which are "worse."

I'm doing a sheer numbers comparison, because that scale is something I think people are truly glossing over. While every event was beyond human comprehension, seeing these events for what they were are the only way to try to bring the human element into something that defies logic and is firmly rooted in pure evil. One of those tools is estimating the casualties.
 
Do you have a better metric? All such mass deaths are horrific, but the very nature of warfare, itself, depends on a life and death-based calculus. I think almost every human being on the planet would choose a disaster in which 500,000 human beings were killed over a disaster in which 10x that number were killed, barring the clouding factors of personal bias. I'm all for sensitivity, but I can't see how a humanist ethical framework can avoid the conclusion that less death is preferable to more death, assuming a relative parity in the quality of life experienced by those who survive it.

I think the idea is that aside from the inanity of comparing numbers in discussions about wartime atrocities, you have immediate deaths vs. immediate deaths+long-term effects from radiation and contamination.

There's also the element of personal involvement (i.e. an American citizen's view vs. a Japanese citizen's for example) that lends another layer of relativity
 

Kabouter

Member
The Nanking massacre was a brutal war crime that shocked the entire world, including ironically Nazi Germany, and it was sadly not out of character for the Japanese in those days. That said, as this thread has clearly shown, trying to actually rank atrocities is just a terrible idea.
 
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