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[Weltall Zero]

When your arguments aren't solid enough, always parody your opponent's in a dumb voice. It's been working since kindergarten!

Also lol at comparing Captain Rainbow and Xenoblade in terms of nicheness.

 

[Seik]

To be honest, it's hard to take anyone from NOA seriously:

First, because of the terrible, terrible way they're handling EVERYTHING.

Second, that 'dumb voice' he's using isn't professional at all and if that reflects how most people there see their fans, it's no wonder why they're so out of touch.

 

[Pellegri Testament]

I still can't process how we can live in a world where absurdly dialog heavy Compile Heart kusoge gets green lit for every region and platform available at lightning speeds but simultaneously at Nintendo there are still projects considered "Too Japanese" to bother even considering.

To be fair though, they likely save quite a bit in terms of localizations costs by using the same voice talent in every game, rather than constantly looking for new people with each new game. They also likely go into the development cycle with a translation in mind, rather than sit there and debate for a year, after the game has come out in Japan, whether or not they should do anything with it. There's also quite the difference between development costs of something like Neptunia (which reuses most of it's assets) and something like Xenoblade which is it's own thing and has large unique areas to explore, rather than a copy paste job.

 

[James Scott]

I thought the point of Nintendo being a hardware company was that it enables them to take more risks with their library. "If Nintendo went 3rd party they would only ever release Mario and Zelda and nothing else." That's the #1 argument I see from people that insist Nintendo should never go 3rd party.

If they're not going to take risks like Xenoblade more often, they're not really doing any favors for their image as a platform holder.

He's saying that stuff like Xenoblade is risky, not that Nintendo won't (or hasn't) been doing more risky stuff. Xenoblade X is being localized and comes out on December pending delays.
They've invested in titles like Bayonetta 2 and The Wonderful 101 which is just that.
Hindsight is 20/20. Their last game on Wii (Disaster) was poorly received and sold poorly as well. Other stuff like Sin&Punishment 2 didn't do well either despite being received well.
Xenoblade is a risk they eventually took and it payed off even putting Shulk in Smash and now they are funding a sequel and confirmed localization quickly.

 

[YianGaruga]

There's also quite the difference between development costs of something like Neptunia (which reuses most of it's assets) and something like Xenoblade which is it's own thing and has large unique areas to explore, rather than a copy paste job.

Well this is about localizing games that are already made, so this point is moot.

IFI just has their shit together when it comes to localizing (and porting) games.

 

[Zombegoast]

Yeah I'm sure Shulk's popularity in Smash meant nothing. The same with Lucas debut in Brawl and Marth's in Melee.

 

[Starphoenix]

Have to admit, when I first heard about the Wii U tablet, this is what came into my mind and I was extremely confused.

 

[Ansatz]

I thought the point of Nintendo being a hardware company was that it enables them to take more risks with their library. "If Nintendo went 3rd party they would only ever release Mario and Zelda and nothing else." That's the #1 argument I see from people that insist Nintendo should never go 3rd party.

If they're not going to take risks like Xenoblade more often, they're not really doing any favors for their image as a platform holder.

Nintendo home consoles are no longer healthy ecosystems, so you can't really do that. Now it's a matter of maintaining them for as long as possible until death with low risk projects. Investing to grow the platform is no longer an option, we're past that point.

The future of Nintendo hardware is the unification of the handheld/console lines. If that platform is successful and the ecosystem is healthy, then we can talk of funding Pikmin / Kid Icarus / Bayonetta tier titles which they wouldn't do as a 3rd party.

 

[Balb]

Nintendo home consoles are no longer healthy ecosystems, so you can't really do that. Now it's a matter of maintaining them for as long as possible until death with low risk projects. Investing to grow the platform is no longer an option, we're past that point.

The future of Nintendo hardware is the unification of the handheld/console lines. If that platform is successful and the ecosystem is healthy, then we can talk of funding Pikmin / Kid Icarus / Bayonetta tier titles which they wouldn't do as a 3rd party.

The Wii (which Xenoblade was on) had a healthy ecosystem.

 

[JoeM86]

Yeah I'm sure Shulk's popularity in Smash meant nothing. The same with Lucas debut in Brawl and Marth's in Melee.

You do realise Shulk is popular in Smash because Xenoblade did well and the risk paid off, right?

 

[Ansatz]

The Wii (which Xenoblade was on) had a healthy ecosystem.

I'm adressing the guy's opinion that Nintendo would do more than "Mario/Zelda" if they went 3rd party, implying nothing will be lost if they dropped hardware, which is complete bullshit.

As if we'd get:

Nintendo Land
Pikmin 3
Bayonetta 2
Wonderful 101
Yoshi's Woolly World
Kirby and the Rainbow Curse
Luigi's Mansion 2
Kid Icarus Uprising

all of them which are fucking amazing games wouldn't exist as a generic 3rd party publisher.

 

[Doombacon]

Looks like someone is drinking some haterade there. Could be that they sell well enough to recoup the costs and then some. Different company sizes and revenue targets. Strangely though you mention kusoge and yet Devils Third is coming out here. Or conversely Nintendo just doesn't care if there is an audience outside of Japan?

I can assure you that I use the term kusoge in the most loving way possible.

I just don't really understand how, say Mugen Souls, can be considered to have reasonable risk:reward but the Operation Rainfall games were all too risky. I would think that a larger company, especially a platform holder, would have more ability to, and benefit from investing in riskier projects.

To be fair though, they likely save quite a bit in terms of localizations costs by using the same voice talent in every game, rather than constantly looking for new people with each new game. They also likely go into the development cycle with a translation in mind, rather than sit there and debate for a year, after the game has come out in Japan, whether or not they should do anything with it. There's also quite the difference between development costs of something like Neptunia (which reuses most of it's assets) and something like Xenoblade which is it's own thing and has large unique areas to explore, rather than a copy paste job.

For a localization is the cost of initial development even that relevant though? If anything I would expect a larger percentage of a Neptunia games budget to get eaten by Japanese to English translation, original English writing and English voice work than a game that does not have asset reuse from previous games to lower the cost of the initial game.

 

[Freiya]

Just think how well Xenoblade Chronicles would have sold had they actually sold it in retail stores like normal and actually marketed it from the beginning. As for the localization being such a burden, if that's all that they cared about and didn't think it would sell in big numbers, all they would have had to do would have been to localize the subtitles. That's no risk, it's not expensive or time consuming. It wouldn't have sold as well, of course.

As for the Wii U naming convention, how can he say it's only a fan reaction based on seeing what happened in hindsight? People were talking about the name causing confusion starting from the day the name was announced. Heck, people on *NeoGAF* were confused by the name.


Got any evidence to back that statement up? The fact that they just plain don't release them in the US means people aren't buying them. But XSeed says theirs sell incredibly well.

This is my thinking too. Adding subs to a game isnt that expensive and a lot of people rather have Japanese va anyway.

 

[Theanine3D]

I'm adressing the guy's opinion that Nintendo would do more than "Mario/Zelda" if they went 3rd party, implying nothing will be lost if they dropped hardware, which is complete bullshit.

I said nothing of the sort. Please don't put words in my mouth. I was merely quoting an argument I've seen from others, and I didn't state whether I agreed with it or not.

Whether Nintendo goes third party or not is irrelevant to me. I merely stated that Nintendo isn't defending the value of staying as a platform holder if they aren't taking advantage of that position by releasing risky games.

They have this awesome privilege that SEGA once did, and I hate to see it go to waste.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

If they voice acting costs for Xenoblade were too great, they could have just thrown in english subtitles. I think plenty of people would have been content with that (although obviously getting it dubbed was nice as well).

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Why aren't people listening to the guy's reasoning and accepting it? Why would someone say "nope! you're wrong!"

 

[jooey]

That's in the first 12 minutes. I agree with him on Captain Rainbow, as much as I would have liked to try it, that game was super niche and fits the point he makes. But still insisting that Xenoblade Chronicles was too risky for NOA and NOE had to "take the fall"? Ok, unlike NOA, I think NOE was just more willing to try and make a move to please their core fans (especially Wii owners who were hungry for RPGs at the time) instead of having the rather antagonistic, derisive view of them which kind of seems to permeate NOA from Reggie on down these (and also kind of permeates Pranger's tone during the duration of the podcast).

the guy gives it as straight as possible and you're still in denial? hey, remember when Nintendo went hard with DQ9 in the West and barely broke a million? well, they do. and that didn't even have voice!

 

[ivysaur12]

the guy gives it as straight as possible and you're still in denial? hey, remember when Nintendo went hard with DQ9 in the West and barely broke a million? well, they do. and that didn't even have voice!

Taking him at his word is also pretty stupid without scrutinizing his responses.

Let's even accept his idea that Xenoblade never recouped its numbers for localization cost (which seems a bit absurd given the developments of the Xenoblade franchise since). Even if 200 people total bought Xenoblade when it was released, it's still important to diversify your console ecosystem or appease your core base. Releasing games can have value outside of how well they sell.

Also, there's an entire business model that XSEED and Atlus use on localization for games like Xenoblade, albeit with a slightly smaller scope. The more his statement is scrutinized, the more absurd it seems.

 

[Sorcerer]

Man I listened to this podcast and this guy is in full defense mode.

What risk did they take on Xenoblade? They made a deal with Gamestop, about 50 people were able to buy the game and then the price skyrockted due to scarcity. (Slight exaggeration of course)

They took zero risk by limiting the production. Then they have the balls to make you buy a new 3DS if you wanted to play the game that way.

Nintendo did nothing to make this game accessible to the masses.

 

[Sorcerer]

edit. double post

 

[Ansatz]

They have this awesome privilege that SEGA once did, and I hate to see it go to waste.

They've already done way more than anyone else would've in their position.

Let's also keep in mind they are the only ones who didn't westernize their output, even the big games remain very Nintendo-like. Zelda is not a Skyrim ripoff quite yet and Mario didn't go open world, thank god.

 

[zero shift]

So a game that sold significantly more in the West than in Japan was "guarantee" to lose money? Umm, okay. Add that to his stupid Wii U naming comments and this guy is the epitome to as of what is currently wrong with Nintendo. I fear for the NX

 

[JoeM86]

So a game that sold significantly more in the West than in Japan was "guarantee" to lose money?

Hindsight is 20/20

 

[ivysaur12]

Hindsight is 20/20

That seems to be his entire argument for all of his points

 

[Shiggy]

I'm adressing the guy's opinion that Nintendo would do more than "Mario/Zelda" if they went 3rd party, implying nothing will be lost if they dropped hardware, which is complete bullshit.

As if we'd get:

Nintendo Land
Pikmin 3
Bayonetta 2
Wonderful 101
Yoshi's Woolly World
Kirby and the Rainbow Curse
Luigi's Mansion 2
Kid Icarus Uprising

all of them which are fucking amazing games wouldn't exist as a generic 3rd party publisher.

Of course we'd get the bolded ones. Kirby games are very popular in Japan, while Yoshi games sell well worldwide (we had lots of them in recent years) and LM2 also had great sales.

You might be right about Bayonetta 2 and W101. Then again, Sega greenlit Bayonetta initially, showing that 3rd parties also do such titles. Even as a first party publisher they do not fund games for which they initially believe that they create a loss - why would they do otherwise? If a game is not anticipated to sell a decent amount, it won't bring in new customers and thus doesn't bring any tangible benefits to Nintendo. Now you may argue that we wouldn't see something like Splatoon either as it might be too risky? But wouldn't that be even more shortsighted? Other third parties have shown that new IPs can become incredibly successful - Destiny, Assassin's Creed, Skylanders.

All in all, Nintendo already is a sequel machine and I doubt their software output can become any more safe than it already is - with lots of Mario, Zelda, and Animal Crossing games and spin-offs. Animal Crossing Wii U and Star Fox Zero look to have an extremely low budget.

 

[zero shift]

Hindsight is 20/20

It's not really hindsight when companies like XSeed and Atlus revolve around localizing such games.

 

[HGH]

You know, video games might be the only industry I've seen where a company can have such massive contempt for its audiences.

 

[xaszatm]

It's not really hindsight when companies like XSeed and Atlus revolve around localizing such games.

Why are we pretending that XSeed is anywhere near Nintendo in business size? XSeed doesn't have to make as much as a profit per project compared to Nintendo. You can still make a profit and still have a disappointment if that profit is not high enough. And yes, it is hindsight as NoA has put in tremendous effort to localize more Japanese-centered games in the west (as well as more "gamer-centric" titles in the west).

The fact that we pretend that the two companies are even comparable speaks volumes on how little we actually know about the gaming business.

You know, video games might be the only industry I've seen where a company can have such massive contempt for its audiences.

1. Check out GW. Then never complain about video games again because nothing they do will ever reach as close as what they did.
2. We still are going with this "Nintendo hates their fans" narrative? I guess the last few years proved it. Its not like they released a bunch of gamer-centric games and announced many niche titles for localization that wouldn't have even been mentioned on the Wii. Let's stop pretending that Nintendo is this evil corporation that deserves to die.

 

[djtiesto]

I have to wonder how much of Xenoblade selling well in the US was only because of Operation Rainfall bringing the game into the spotlight.

I want to believe it really helped The Last Story at least for making it one of Xseed's best selling games.

Well, the word of mouth for Xenoblade was ridiculously good based on impressions of the Japanese version. And lots of people who would be interested in a high quality, vast and epic RPG probably did own Wiis. Maybe not as their primary platform, but for someone disappointed at what happened with FF13 and other console RPGs this gen, they'd eat up XB.

Nintendo really screwed the pooch in a lot of ways by refusing to localize Xenoblade. I think that the whole Operation Rainfall debacle, which happened during a time of Nintendo alienating their hardcore base (while continuously chasing after the casual market), is what really damaged their perception coming into the WiiU.

Sometimes, companies need to 'bite the bullet' and take the risk... cater to their hardcore fan. Since those people will be the ones who will stick with you through thick and thin, they will be the ones talking up your system/your game to the lesser informed. Seems they're learning this lesson with the Wii U, but that's a bit too late.

 

[zero shift]

Why are we pretending that XSeed is anywhere near Nintendo in business size? XSeed doesn't have to make as much as a profit per project compared to Nintendo. You can still make a profit and still have a disappointment if that profit is not high enough. And yes, it is hindsight as NoA has put in tremendous effort to localize more Japanese-centered games in the west (as well as more "gamer-centric" titles in the west).

The fact that we pretend that the two companies are even comparable speaks volumes on how little we actually know about the gaming business.

The guy said Xenoblade was guaranteed to lose money. I think that speaks volumes of his ignorance.

 

[StormKing]

Well, the word of mouth for Xenoblade was ridiculously good based on impressions of the Japanese version. And lots of people who would be interested in a high quality, vast and epic RPG probably did own Wiis. Maybe not as their primary platform, but for someone disappointed at what happened with FF13 and other console RPGs this gen, they'd eat up XB.

Nintendo really screwed the pooch in a lot of ways by refusing to localize Xenoblade. I think that the whole Operation Rainfall debacle, which happened during a time of Nintendo alienating their hardcore base (while continuously chasing after the casual market), is what really damaged their perception coming into the WiiU.

Sometimes, companies need to 'bite the bullet' and take the risk... cater to their hardcore fan. Since those people will be the ones who will stick with you through thick and thin, they will be the ones talking up your system/your game to the lesser informed. Seems they're learning this lesson with the Wii U, but that's a bit too late.

I doubt the refusal to localize niche games like Xenoblade was the reason the Wii U failed. Its name, price, power, third party support and the release of the PS4/Xbox1 were far greater problems.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I think, no matter what else, Nintendo's certainly not going to let people go off reservation like this a lot more.

 

[KojiKnight]

Guy was 100% right on Xenoblade... the ONLY reason Xenoblade sold so well was because of the controversy of it NOT being localized.

If the game was localized day 1 without all of the constant media swarming and fan initiatives like project rainfall it would have not sold nearly as well.

I might not go so far to say that it'd bomb... but it wouldn't have likely made back all of the money necessary.

 

[xaszatm]

The guy said Xenoblade was guaranteed to lose money. I think that speaks volumes of his ignorance.

He said "because that game is guaranteed to not sell enough to justify how big that game is." That's not "losing money", that's exactly what I said in my previous response. I mean, you don't even have to look at the podcast to see that. It's in the OP itself.

 

[xaszatm]

I think, no matter what else, Nintendo's certainly not going to let people go off reservation like this a lot more.

Honestly, this is a shame and probably true. We're finally having people talk about localizations and the response seemed to be demanding they shut up and screaming how the person who talk deserved to get punished, fired, or worse.

I honestly want more of NoA being willing to talk with outside forces on how they operate because it's fascinating to learn about this stuff. Though it seems I'm in a minority and more want this guy, and NoA by extension,to shut up.

 

[Zombegoast]

You do realise Shulk is popular in Smash because Xenoblade did well and the risk paid off, right?

I know and makes no sense when you see games that underperformed but are still localized by NoA.

How was localizing Xenoblade risky on the system that had the biggest install base last gen? The CoD ports sold over 1 million ffs and No More Heroes did really well for a niche title.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Honestly, this is a shame and probably true. We're finally having people talk about localizations and the response seemed to be demanding they shut up and screaming how the person who talk deserved to get punished, fired, or worse.

I honestly want more of NoA being willing to talk with outside forces on how they operate because it's fascinating to learn about this stuff. Though it seems I'm in a minority and more want this guy, and NoA by extension,to shut up.

To be clear: I absolutely think he is wrong.

But I don't think vitriol is particularly deserved, nor does it really serve a useful purpose here.

 

[xaszatm]

I know and makes no sense when you see games that underperformed but are still localized by NoA.

How was localizing Xenoblade risky on the system that had the biggest install base last gen?

If we're talking about Wii games, probably because the cost for localizing three of those under preformed games was the same as localizing Xenoblade Chronicles? Sin and Punishment 2 probably wasn't going to be as expensive to localize (being a rail shooter) compared to the hours-long text and vocal heavy JRPG Xenoblade Chronicles. I don't understand how you can't seem to realize how some games are easier to justify localizing compared to others. And yes, hindsight was 20/20 for that because, at the current JRPG market at the time, other developers were becoming more reluctant to release JRPG's in the west. Why are we pretending that Nintendo was the only one doing it?

 

[jj984jj]

Localization was only part of the issue with the way they handled Xenoblade. Xenoblade might not have been Mario or Pokemon but it definitely deserved better treatment in when it came to both marketing and localization. If people weren't as harsh on Nintendo relying on their dated practices we probably wouldn't even have Splatoon right now. Nintendo needs to realize that their heavy reliance on established IPs will only help them on future endeavors to a point, and they really need to think how they approach the games they publish globally with more thought. They're getting better at doing that thanks to the failure of Wii U, but as it stands it's pretty obvious that these things are still pretty segmented and still not up to date for most of what they release. Splatoon is still the exception for Nintendo because they gave the push it needed and used modern outlets like social media to help with that, but it should be more of a base for a guideline for establishing new IPs or pushing IPs that aren't as established as the ones they rely on too much.

 

[Vena]

To be clear: I absolutely think he is wrong.

But I don't think vitriol is particularly deserved, nor does it really serve a useful purpose here.

Agree or disagree this thread and the info in the OP were a shitshow waiting to happen with the way they were and still are structured.

Compare this thread to the original on this podcast with a more genuine OP. Intentional shitshow is intentional.

And now I expect we're going to hear even less out of NoA/Treehouse given just how out of context their words can be taken and twisted into a "lolNoAsuckshatessmashandfanslol" thread of garbage.

 

[MCN]

You know, video games might be the only industry I've seen where a company can have such massive contempt for its audiences.

Take a look at the music industry.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

Take a look at the music industry.

The music industry also holds nothing but contempt for its artists.

Maybe they're not so different.

 

[Nanashrew]

It's not really hindsight when companies like XSeed and Atlus revolve around localizing such games.

Scale. Atlus and Xseed don't localize giant AAA JRPGs. Or in the case of Europe, Atlus don't localize anything.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

12 pages of a thread with a tabloid headline (he doesn't even defend the Wii U name) and explains quite clearly why they didn't want to localize Xenoblade (text heavy, takes a lot of money, from what is a niche genre at the time) not to mention there's already a thread about the podcast that contains all the info right here. Congrats Gaf, eat your cake.

 

[Kusagari]

Scale. Atlus and Xseed don't localize giant AAA JRPGs. Or in the case of Europe, Atlus don't localize anything.

Was Xenoblade really some giant translation effort compared to a Persona game?

 

[AniHawk]

And that's the short-sighted way of looking things. There are more things to consider besides the costs versus profits of single titles, it's also important to consider your game collection as a whole. The Wii catalogue was very one-side and certain genres were not well represented at all. This made the console unappealing to an audience that's worth catering to. It's a very different deal with DQVII, because there are plenty of good games on the same platform to appeal to the same people who would buy DQVII.

i have a super hard time believing that xenoblade was the lynchpin to turning perception on the wii around and getting all those people who had sworn off the system to come flocking to it in late 2011. but once again, you have to consider that in 2010-2011, nintendo wasn't making games for the wii, but the wii, ds, and 3ds. they weren't like sony who really just had one platform at the time.

The problem of shovelware on the Wii is that the majority of its userbase was so uneducated on games, and were not able to pick up the good ones from the pile of junk. These people would buy the license game for their kids and leave Super Mario Galaxy 2 on the shelf if the latter cost more than twice as much. It's different from core gamers, who follow the industry and know what's good. Quality didn't get to shine on the Wii because it largely had an audience that didn't know any better.

this isn't a thing that was exclusive to the wii. i don't know what you're going on about with smg2 - that game sold several millions of copies, and outsold any wii u game.

 

[ALLseeingEYE]

Guy was 100% right on Xenoblade... the ONLY reason Xenoblade sold so well was because of the controversy of it NOT being localized.

If the game was localized day 1 without all of the constant media swarming and fan initiatives like project rainfall it would have not sold nearly as well.

I might not go so far to say that it'd bomb... but it wouldn't have likely made back all of the money necessary.

I think the only reason that would be the case, is because Nintendo did zero marketing for the game. Obviously if you don't make people aware of games, don't showcase your AAA titles during your E3 conferences, foster hype, don't properly support RPG gamers throughout the lifespan of your platform, and put zero dollars into an advertising budget, you are going to get pathetic results.

Now, lets flip this around... What would happen if Sony believed they had an incredibly ambitious open-world AAA JRPG on their hands for PS3 or PS4? would it honestly be in close to the same position as Nintendo left Xenoblade to rot in? The problem is the platform and the platform holder\publisher, not the game. The Xeno games have a huge history here in NA, either company could have built up hype with some smart marketing.

 

[AniHawk]

OK. Why do you think the games you listed failed by the way?

probably because nintendo isn't cool. that's been their biggest issues since forever. either they are viewed as uncool at large (because video games) or they're done so within the industry compared to other companies. the perception of nintendo is that they're a loser company, and people go to staggering lengths to deny them success when they find it.

 

[pinkurocket]

This guy sure knows how to make an argument. How embarrassing.
Making fun of your consumers? Why is this guy so frustrated, that's not a very Nintendo attitude.

 

[JPS Kai]

I think the only reason that would be the case, is because Nintendo did zero marketing for the game. Obviously if you don't make people aware of games, don't showcase your AAA titles during your E3 conferences, foster hype, don't properly support RPG gamers throughout the lifespan of your platform, and put zero dollars into an advertising budget, you are going to get pathetic results.

Now, lets flip this around... What would happen if Sony believed they had an incredibly ambitious open-world AAA JRPG on their hands for PS3 or PS4? would it honestly be in close to the same position as Nintendo left Xenoblade to rot in? The problem is the platform and the platform holderpublisher, not the game. The Xeno games have a huge history here in NA, either company could have built up hype with some smart marketing.

Don't forget that Sony chose not to localize Demon's Souls (presumably) because it would be "risky" It was Atlus that was able to bring it stateside.