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Why could the Game Gear display more colors than the Master System?

iidesuyo

Member
Master System: 32 out of 64 colors
Game Gear: 32 out of 4096 colors

Or in other words, why didn't the MS support 4096 colors? RAM issues? What defines how many colors can be displayed anyway? I used to think that MS & GG had identical hardware with GG having a smaller resolution.
 
GG came out later so they had time to improve the chipset I guess, no idea really.

It would have been amazing of the master system had that many colours, I think some emulators can use a hack to do stuff like that to modified roms.
 

Jashobeam

Member
my guess is master system could only process 6 bits for color which is a max value of 64 binary while master system could handle 12 bits or 4096
 

Shig

Strap on your hooker ...
A five year gap between 'em seems like the most obvious answer.

Master System's closest relative was the NES, the NES could do 64 colors. Game Gear's closest relative was the Atari Lynx, the Atari Lynx could do 4096 colors.
 

iidesuyo

Member
It would have been amazing of the master system had that many colours, I think some emulators can use a hack to do stuff like that to modified roms.

It's a bit sad that the Game Gear screen couldn't really display the colorful graphics in all its details (poor screen, frontlit). If you want to appreciate it you need to play the games on an emulator.
 

WillyFive

Member
As time marches on, technology improves. The Game Boy was also more powerful than the NES, even though you wouldn't be able to tell due to its monochrome screen.
 

nkarafo

Member
Both only display 32 on screen though so in the end the difference would only be a better selection of colors (possibly), not more colors right?

Also, the NES could only display 16 colors on screen if i remember correctly.
 

Finaika

Member
I remember I was pretty depressed knowing the Mega Drive / Genesis could only display 64 colors on screen.
 

Branduil

Member
Both only display 32 on screen though so in the end the difference would only be a better selection of colors (possibly), not more colors right?

Also, the NES could only display 16 colors on screen if i remember correctly.

According to wikipedia:

The system has an available color palette of 48 colors and 6 grays. Up to 25 simultaneous colors may be used without writing new values mid-frame: a background color, four sets of three tile colors and four sets of three sprite colors. The NES palette is based on NTSC rather than RGB values. A total of 64 sprites may be displayed onscreen at a given time without reloading sprites mid-screen.
 

@MUWANdo

Banned
Both only display 32 on screen though so in the end the difference would only be a better selection of colors (possibly), not more colors right?

There were scanline tricks you could do to display more than 32 colours per screen, just as you could on GBC.

I remember I was pretty depressed knowing the Mega Drive / Genesis could only display 64 colors on screen.

The MD palette only had 512 colours (not counting shadow/highlight trick), so the GG has it handily beat in that aspect, even if it's mostly constrained to 32 colours per screen.

Wasn't it 512 colors?

Yeah, brainfart. My bad.
 

nkarafo

Member
I remember I was pretty depressed knowing the Mega Drive / Genesis could only display 64 colors on screen.
And yet some multi platform games look better on the Genesis/Mega Drive compared to the SNES because the limited colors forced the developers to use more contrast. I remember one of the Street Fighter games had better contrast because of the good use of limited colors and Earthworm Jim looks much more vibrant on the Genesis as well as the SNES version looks more washed out, with lower contrast and smoother gradients. These smooth gradients may look better on more "CGI looking" games (like Donkey Kong Country) but i prefer higher contrasts in my cartoony looking games.

The color dithering sucked some times though...
 

Krejlooc

Banned
The VDP is iterative between all the Sega consoles. Every update of the VDP improved it's functionality. This is why the Sega 8-bit line has backwards compatibility all the way back to the SG-1000.

The Game Gear was merely the next revision of the 8-bit line. The SMS was released in 1986. The Game Gear in 1990.
 
It's weird seeing so many people reference 'master system' because when I was a kid, that thing never existed. It was just suddenly 'Sega Genesis' existed and my dad got me one and it was amazing.

The lower resolution of the GG killed it's graphics potential for me though. It was hard to play sonic and xmen because everything was so small yet blocky and pixelated compared to Genesis.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
What defines how many colors can be displayed anyway?

The VDP has a component called Color Ram (CRAM). The CRAM in the SMS is 32 bytes long (16 Word). The Game Gear CRAM is 64 bytes (32 word).
 

iidesuyo

Member
The VDP is iterative between all the Sega consoles. Every update of the VDP improved it's functionality. This is why the Sega 8-bit line has backwards compatibility all the way back to the SG-1000.

The Game Gear was merely the next revision of the 8-bit line. The SMS was released in 1986. The Game Gear in 1990.

And why couldn't the Game Gear do like 256 out of 4096 colors? Why only 32 colors at once? What defines this?


It's weird seeing so many people reference 'master system' because when I was a kid, that thing never existed.

I guess you're from the US. In Europe the Master System was quite successful, it was sold super cheap with games built in.
 
I guess you're from the US. In Europe the Master System was quite successful, it was sold super cheap with games built in.

That must be it then.

The first time I heard of it was when I got a Sega CD and the box said that once you add it to your Genesis you could play MS/G/SCD games, and I wondered what Master System was at that point.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
And why couldn't the Game Gear do like 256 out of 4096 colors? Why only 32 colors at once? What defines this?

When you write commands to the VDP, it takes an instruction length of 8 bits. 4 bits are reserved for command flags, with the remaining 4 bits reserved for palette information. 4^2 = 16. Each individual image component on the Master System can access one of 16 colors of a defined sub palette. There are 2 sub-palettes selectable by one of the flags in the sprite object.

I guess you're from the US. In Europe the Master System was quite successful, it was sold super cheap with games built in.

I live in the US. The Master system was here, this guy just doesn't remember. We used to rent games from Blockbuster and buy them at Toys R Us.
 

iidesuyo

Member
The VDP has a component called Color Ram (CRAM). The CRAM in the SMS is 32 bytes long (1 Word). The Game Gear CRAM is 64 bytes (2 words).

Ah ok, so it is some kind of RAM issue


That must be it then.
The first time I heard of it was when I got a Sega CD and the box said that once you add it to your Genesis you could play MS/G/SCD games, and I wondered what Master System was at that point.

There are many Master System games you probably never heard of. Sonic 2, Aladdin, The Smurfs, countless others. The MS was supported in Europe until 1996.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Ah ok, so it is some kind of RAM issue

It's more of a register size problem than anything else. With such a small set of registers to work with, you lose granularity with selecting colors.

As an example, with the sega genesis, it's possible to select new shades beyond the master 512 palette using bitshifting to force half-step measures when selecting colors.
 

iidesuyo

Member
It's more of a register size problem than anything else. With such a small set of registers to work with, you lose granularity with selecting colors.

As an example, with the sega genesis, it's possible to select new shades beyond the master 512 palette using bitshifting to force half-step measures when selecting colors.

I have to admit that I have little clue about programming. Otherwise I'd probably know the answer for my question...

I was just wondering why the Master System couldn't produce 4096 color from the start. Thank you for your answers!

What in your opinion is the most impressive Game Gear/Master System game?
 

Krejlooc

Banned
I have to admit that I have little clue about programming. Otherwise I'd probably know the answer for my question...

I was just wondering why the Master System couldn't produce 4096 color from the start. Thank you for your answers!

What in your opinion is the most impressive Game Gear/Master System game?

Probably either Gunstar Heroes or Ristar. Asterix and the Sonic games are also impressive.
 
Both only display 32 on screen though so in the end the difference would only be a better selection of colors (possibly), not more colors right?

Also, the NES could only display 16 colors on screen if i remember correctly.

Pretty much this. Here is something I posted before:

GameGear:
xHUsn6D.png


Master System:
NB8UgMy.png


Both these games are roughly displaying the same amounts of colour on screen, but the Game Gear game looks superior (not so much in resolution) because the developers had a much larger pool of colours to choose from.

What in your opinion is the most impressive Game Gear/Master System game?

GG Shinobi II - The Silent Fury looks great to me. It really shows off the GG's colour palette. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKhtumandNo&feature=youtu.be&t=292
 
It's a bit sad that the Game Gear screen couldn't really display the colorful graphics in all its details (poor screen, frontlit). If you want to appreciate it you need to play the games on an emulator.
You should see it video out modded and played on a PVM. Looks lovely!
 

Krejlooc

Banned
You should see it video out modded and played on a PVM. Looks lovely!

It would also open eyes as to the relationship between the GG and SMS. The GG "port" of Castle of Illusion, as an example, isn't a port at all. It's literally the SMS version on a cartridge. it runs full resolution, the game gear's screen hardware scales the image down. As far as the GG knows, it's running in SMS mode 2 (graphics II).

If you output via video out, you get full screen playback of the game on a television.

What's a PVM?

Professional Video Monitor, a small RGB monitor used in production for film.

It's not necssary, however - the game gear screen actually has an NTSC line running to the screen, not RGB values. You have to use a plexer and timer and build a circuit to get actual RGB out of the game gear. The thing uses the video line from the master system VDP.
 
What's a PVM?
Oh, sorry. Professional Video Monitor. A high end CRT monitor that can display in RGB. There's a mod you can do to a Game Gear so it outputs in RGB to a monitor.
It would also open eyes as to the relationship between the GG and SMS. The GG "port" of Castle of Illusion, as an example, isn't a port at all. It's literally the SMS version on a cartridge. it runs full resolution, the game gear's screen hardware scales the image down. As far as the GG knows, it's running in SMS mode 2 (graphics II).

If you output via video out, you get full screen playback of the game on a television.
Oh, wow. Now that's interesting. It would seriously go full screen? Now I have to see that.
 

iidesuyo

Member
The GG "port" of Castle of Illusion, as an example, isn't a port at all. It's literally the SMS version on a cartridge. it runs full resolution, the game gear's screen hardware scales the image down. As far as the GG knows, it's running in SMS mode 2 (graphics II).

I don't get it. If the GG scales down, shouldn't there be some artefacts? Or does it just zoom in?
 

Krejlooc

Banned
I don't get it. If the GG scales down, shouldn't there be some artefacts? Or does it just zoom in?

There are.

First, the screen discards the leftmost and rightmost 8 pixels of the SMS screen (which were already accounted for because of overscan). To keep aspect ratio, the uppermost and lowermost 8 pixels of the GG screen are left blank, too.

How the screen scaling works is that, if the image is detected as a full-resolution image, it uses the subpixel format of the Game Gear screen itself to map RBG values coming out of the master system image format into vertical strips like so: Each pixel on the game gear LCD is arranged as two subchannels big in this mode, with the left over channel being an average of values from the leftover component of the previous pixel from the unformatted mage. So, the math works like so:

Game Gear: RG|BR|GB|RG|BR|GB|RG...

SMS: RGB|RGB|RGB|RGB...

What this means is that it becomes a rolling 3:2 scale for the screen in real time done by a circuit. It also means, as an example, that it's impossible to draw a single 1x1 white pixel in this mode to the screen.

most don't notice this, but if you play a game with text it becomes noticable because the text usually starts to look like rainbow bands.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Games running in full resolution, video out before hitting gg screen scaling:
k5rCtOn.jpg


Game running in normal gg resolution before hitting screen scaling:

JdKFLWj.jpg
 

iidesuyo

Member
Games running in full resolution, video out before hitting gg screen scaling:
k5rCtOn.jpg


Game running in normal gg resolution before hitting screen scaling:

JdKFLWj.jpg

I feel bad for ruining your night for such things, but thanks!


That looks fine for a Game Gear game, other than the weird thing where enemies are blowing up before the bullets reach them.

For a 1996 game they could have produced something better than this.
 
I don't know, Tails Adventure (1995) looks gorgeous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKBLE_xHe34

It does look pretty nice, but that is also an emulator and not a real Game Gear screen. I still have a Game Gear around somewhere, but the volume slider is completely broken and the screen has diminished in image quality over the decades. But most of the GG games looked pretty good on new hardware back in the day.


Games running in full resolution, video out before hitting gg screen scaling:
k5rCtOn.jpg


Game running in normal gg resolution before hitting screen scaling:

JdKFLWj.jpg

That's neat. So basically, it is just the SMS ROM running on a Game Gear.


For a 1996 game they could have produced something better than this.

They definitely could've put more effort into making Panzer Dragoon Mini a better game. But visually, it looks OK to me. They did also release a Virtua Fighter Mini game a few months after and it was quite a bit better. But still not as good as something like Fatal Fury Special which came out in 1994. Fatal Fury Special is a great looking Game Gear game and it uses the colour palliate really well.
 

Ulthwe

Member
Who could have thought that a simple MS vs GG colors question would bring such interesting technical answers. I live for this stuff, even if I just grasp a tiny bit of it.

Krejilooc, my mind is still processing that RG|BR|GB|RG chart you so thoroughly explained. Would you mind posting a pic of how Castle of Illusion looks on the GG screen?
 
I have both a US and a JPN version.

it works with lots of other games, too. Like Revenge of Drancon.
Disregard, error on my end! I never had any idea, pretty neat. And very interesting I must say. I found a list and I must say, I'm surprised more devs didn't go in this direction out of a sense of laziness
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Who could have thought that a simple MS vs GG colors question would bring such interesting technical answers. I live for this stuff, even if I just grasp a tiny bit of it.

Krejilooc, my mind is still processing that RG|BR|GB|RG chart you so thoroughly explained. Would you mind posting a pic of how Castle of Illusion looks on the GG screen?

Ha, I just went through and re-read what I wrote, and it doesn't seem very clear at all. Let me explain in more detail using examples.

What happens is that the horizontal resolution of the screen is mapped out according to two-subpixel "pixel" groupings on the game gear's LCD screen. This means individual red, green, and blue subchannels, which would normally represent one pixel, are broken up into groups of two to make up more resolution. The mapping is as follows:


Let's label these 1-4. This is 12 subpixels, which is 4 pixels.
SMS pixels:
Code:
..1.....2.....3.....4....
[RGB] [rgb] [RGB] [rgb]

GG pixels: the same number of subpixels (12) now becomes 6 actual pixels
Code:
..1....2....3....4....5....6....
[RG] [Br] [gb] [RG] [Br] [gb]


Note that, in the above, 3 groups of RGB sub pixels maps onto 2 groups of RGB subpixels. This is a 3:2 pulldown. The SMS's horizontal resolution is 256, but as I said they ignore the edge-most 8 pixels on each side, meaning it considers only 240 pixels. The game gear's screen resolution is 160 pixels wide. (240*2)/3 = 160.

They map like so:

GG R1 = SMS R1
GG G1 = SMS G1
--------------------------
GG B2 = SMS b2
GG r2 = SMS r2
--------------------------
GG g3 = SMS G3
GG b3 = SMS B3
--------------------------
GG R4 = SMS r4
GG G4 = SMS g4
etc.

If you note, this means you lose a sub pixel across the SMS image as it scales. This creates a slight blurring effect horizontally across the screen. The Game Gear screen demonstrated color bleed like other CRT screens of the era, so this loss of color information was usually masked by the bleeding pixels. Of our original 12 subpixels, we only use 8 of them (again, (12*2)/3=8, 3:2 pulldown).

This is what the result of this horizontal scalilng looks like:

44Az82O.jpg


With vertical resolution, there is a real time two-step blurring process that purposely bleeds values among pixels above and below. In alternating fashion, either 3 pixels will be turned into corresponding 2 pixels that are half-blurs of each pixel, or 4 rows of pixels will be turned into 3 rows of pixels with the same type of blurring. The blurring ratio goes as follows:

Even numbered raster lines: X = current line
(X - 2 * 1/6) +
(X - 1 * 1/3) +
(X * 1/3) +
(X + 1 * 1/6)

You can see the two tail ends at the top and bottom (about 1 line "above" and "below" the 2 line thick selected area) are considered at half the rate that the other two lines are, essentially converting those two tailing selections into a weight equal the other 2 (i.e. 1/3).

For odd numbered raster lines: X = current line
(X - 1 * 1/3) +
(X * 1/3) +
(X + 1 * 1/3)

For this part of the pattern, all 3 lines are considered equally in weight.

This can be seen by scrolling a horizontal line down the game gear screen:

aVGW44P.gif
 

Ulthwe

Member
Great explanation
Wow, that's just nuts! Coming up with this scaling technique AND making the game still look good on the GG screen with color information loss is some kind of wizardry.

Thank you very much for your explanation, it's quite enlightening seeing the techniques and workarounds programmers where doing back in the day to squeeze a console's capabilities.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Wow, that's just nuts! Coming up with this scaling technique AND making the game still look good on the GG screen with color information loss is some kind of wizardry.

Thank you very much for your explanation, it's quite enlightening seeing the techniques and workarounds programmers where doing back in the day to squeeze a console's capabilities.

This was done in hardware. People don't have to consider anything, this is automatic. SMS games played on a game gear screen are virtually indiscernible from them being played on a normal television. This masks the entire process. There is color loss, but the general washed out nature of the screen, plus it's small size, plus the natural color bleed, all meant that you didn't notice the loss at all.

In fact, this is how I used my game gear the most. I picked up an SMS converter immediately after picking up my game gear and actually rarely bought actual game gear games. I had a huge SMS library and considered the thing a portable SMS.

Also, this stuff is only if you feed it a full frame. Game Gear games actually run at a smaller resolution than master system games. When they would design the game around the game gear resolution, you could do 1:1 subpixel mapping, aka a native resolution. Games like Sonic 1, when they ported it to the game gear, went with 1:1 pixel mapping, and thus it cropped much of the screen. Actually, playing the SMS version of Sonic 2 on a game gear is waaaaaay better than playing the actual game gear version. Even though all the graphics are much smaller this way, you can see way more ahead and behind you. This goes for all the Sonic games on the game gear, and realistically, just about any SMS->GG port. It's better to just play the SMS version on the GG because you'll usually get full frame. Games like Castle of Illusion or Revenge of Drancon actually aren't too common, not many games used this short cut. most SMS->GG ports actually considered the game gear's resolution.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Another note about the Sega 8-bit design, because many likely do not realize it - it was a very common design. The MSX, and Colecovision, and SG-1000 (the system that the Master System and Mark 3 eventually evolved out of) were all essentially the exact same machines with different memory locations. In fact, it is trivial to get games running between systems. In fact, someone even managed to build an adapter that let them play MSX games on their Game Gear, because all Sega 8-bit hardware is backwards compatible.

The game gear was merely the final revision of a very long line of hardware from Sega. I really do love the Sega 8-bit line of hardware, awesome library of games.
 
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