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[Dicer]

But that isn't 90s enough

Call it a "expansion pak"

But yeah, stick a fork in it...

 

[panda-zebra]

You are misreading the campaign - it doesn't say the stretch goal is to include an FPGA that can recreate classic system cores, it's to use a better one, capable of using more complicated cores.

I don't believe I am:

At our minimum goal of $1,950,000, RETRO VGS comes to life and will play a wide variety of fun, high-quality games. After that, the more success our campaign receives, the more we put into RETRO VGS.

Unprecedented Flexibility

At $3,800,000—less than twice our minimum goal—we increase the size of our FPGA, making RETRO VGS the first video game system capable of recreating classic systems through reshaping its own hardware!


More Gates = More Variety + More Fun

Using a larger FPGA allows game developers to extend the ability of RETRO VGS in the same way that on-cartridge enhancement chips (ASICs) extended the ability of the Super Nintendo, but on a much larger scale and at much lower cost to game makers and buyers.

The larger FPGA will give RETRO VGS enough gates to duplicate the circuits of entire classic video game and computer systems.

Other system simulation = $3.8m stretch goal.

 

[Tempy]

I've backed a few electronic hardware projects on kickstarter before (Slice, Arduboy, GCW Zero). They all had working prototypes. Granted, this seems a tad more complicated hardware.

It's easier to back a project when the risks can be reduced as much as possible; and having a prototype at least proves your idea works.

I'd say shut it down and try again later. There have been failed projects which were eventually funded the second time around after the right changes had been made.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

I've backed a few electronic hardware projects on kickstarter before (Slice, Arduboy, GCW Zero). They all had working prototypes. Granted, this seems a tad more complicated hardware.

It's easier to back a project when the risks can be reduced as much as possible; and having a prototype at least proves your idea works.

I'd say shut it down and try again later. There have been failed projects which were eventually funded the second time around after the right changes had been made.

But the problem here is how the team is treating the community and those who have genuine concerns with the project. Maybe I'm wrong and people will forgive and forget if they shut this campaign down and relaunch it later with more realistic ambitions but I highly doubt it.

 

[neverknowsbest]

The thought process for this entire project seems to have been:

1. Buy Jaguar molds
2. ???
3. Profit

The fact that they spend so much time talking about the molds and how amazing they are and how much money they're saving because of them and so little time talking about the actual hardware that will go inside the plastic makes it feel like Mike Kennedy bought the molds on eBay, was told that he got a great deal on them, went looking for some kind of project to make use of them, and then stumbled upon some people who have good credentials but no market acumen.

If he'd had the intelligence/insight/balls to take just ONE of the paths he offered, either an ARM-based cart-based indie game system, OR an FPGA-based retro system hardware emulator, this could have turned out to be a cool, niche product with a nicer-than-average plastic case. Instead it's a laughable example of arrogance. Seriously, a $2 million goal for such a niche product, what were they thinking? "Ouya got $8 million so I can easily get 1/4 that!"

At least Jaguar collectors got some new cases out of it.

 

[Tempy]

But the problem here is how the team is treating the community and those who have genuine concerns with the project. Maybe I'm wrong and people will forgive and forget if they shut this campaign down and relaunch it later with more realistic ambitions but I highly doubt it.

In the case of the GCW Zero, the creator went through a pretty bad period giving everybody a sob story about how his wife divorced him and such. They ended up hiring a PR person to handle the communication better. Maybe a good idea for this project too.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

The upscaler is NOT going to cost more than this console... guaranteed

The most popular upscaler is the XRGB Mini and costs $300. And then you have to mod your systems for RGB out and buy the actual cables, which comes out to some hundreds of dollars more depending on which systems you want.

Emulation for retro consoles before the 3d era works perfectly... I have no clue what you mean by "not 100% accurate"

Emulators are not perfect at all. If you put an emulator next to the real hardware and software, there would be differences (video and audio glitches being the most obvious). Most people won't care, but it's a real thing purists worry about. Most emulators go for speed and compatibility instead of accuracy.

Here's an article about it. It's kind of interesting.

None of the above even matters, because you don't play actual retro software on it

The Retro VGS? I believe that's exactly what they intend. They're going to sell converters so you can use the actual retro carts.

 

[foobarry81]

The upscaler is NOT going to cost more than this console... guaranteed

Emulation for retro consoles before the 3d era works perfectly... I have no clue what you mean by "not 100% accurate"

None of the above even matters, because you don't play actual retro software on it

Overall this just costs more than its worth for all parties... Just so you can play a retro inspired indie on a cartridge????

Cycle accuracy:

A cycle-accurate simulator is a computer program that simulates a microarchitecture on a cycle-by-cycle basis. In contrast an instruction set simulator simulates an instruction set architecture usually faster but not cycle-accurate to a specific implementation of this architecture; they are often used when emulating older hardware, where time precisions are very important from legacy reasons. More often CAS is used when designing new microprocessors – they can be tested, and benchmarked accurately (including running full operating system, or compilers) without actually building a physical chip, and easily change design many times to meet expected plan.

Cycle-accurate simulators must ensure that all operations are executed in the proper virtual (or real if it is possible) time – branch prediction, cache misses, fetches, pipeline stalls, thread context switching, and many other subtle aspects of microprocessors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_architecture_simulator

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

I thought the days of seeing internal corporate bickering in the industry this bad in real-time, let alone the crash and burn of a modern-day console in such a resounding way, were behind us. Guess I was wrong.

These guys are making Sega's corporate decisions during the Saturn era look like strokes of genius in comparison. I think every console manufacturer (even Atari) can look at this fiasco and say "well, at least we never fell that hard".

Antagonizing parts of your potential consumer base is one of the worst things to do, and the shade they're throwing at Kevtris seems like it's going to come back and bite them hard. But they've bought this upon themselves; a solid vision and plan of execution would have seen this through. As-is, they're better off cancelling the campaign, offering a refund to those who have contributed and don't want to wait around, and revise the project from square-one.

I actually had confidence in this thing at one point, but that confidence is dead, just like the VGS in its current state.

 

[BriBri]

I wonder if we'll ever see any of the Mightuy series;-)

 

[LewieP]

The vague, non-specific, non-committal statements of support from developers are pretty amusing.

 

[NormalFish]

Can't connect the original console to newer monitors without an expensive upscaler or other stuff.

Emulation? Not 100% accurate.

3rd one: Lol

FYI: Silicon degrades too, so eventually all the old consoles will die.

Brand new XRGB Mini runs about 300$ USD. Same price as this. Broadcast monitors run 50-150$, though they can be found cheaper if you're willing to really hunt. If all you want to do is run your consoles on a modern display, you can do it for 10$ + the console/tv.

And the last 'fyi' has to be a joke. This thing isn't exactly immortal either, so why does that matter? Literally all electronics eventually die. If that's a reason for you to avoid a console, what the fuck are you doing on this board?

Please read what I replied to, and the other answers to the same person.

I don't see how him being wrong about some things makes you any more right?

 

[NeOak]

Brand new XRGB Mini runs about 300$ USD. Same price as this. Broadcast monitors run 50-150$, though they can be found cheaper if you're willing to really hunt. If all you want to do is run your consoles on a modern display, you can do it for 10$ + the console/tv.

And the last 'fyi' has to be a joke. This thing isn't exactly immortal either, so why does that matter? Literally all electronics eventually die. If that's a reason for you to avoid a console, what the fuck are you doing on this board?

Please read what I replied to, and the other answers to the same person.

I don't see how him being wrong about some things makes you any more right?

*Sigh*

 

[Vipershark]

So I said this earlier...

The ability to play your old games as well as code new ones on "native" hardware was always the main draw for the VGS, along with Mike's proposals about propositioning companies to rerelease and/or create sequels to old IP.
The ARM and ability to play not-actually-retro games with some cartridges is more of a tacked-on feature at best.

And then a few hours later Mike posted this.

RETRO VGS The main focus of RETRO VGS isn't to play old games but these new retro games being made today, on cartridges. His product is just another way to emulate like dozens of products before it. And with the FPGA it won't compete in any way, shape or form with the countless other software emulated systems out there. His is a failed model from the start and it's a shame he couldn't combine his efforts with our product and make a real compelling product that would do something unlike any other system on the market.
Like · Reply · 58 minutes ago

Wow, confirmation straight from him that his priorities are in the completely wrong place. Look like I'm VERY out.

 

[Mega]

Kevtris is now conducting a poll on AtariAge to gauge public support for an FPGA gaming system of his own design. Nothing confirmed, he's playing it safe and smart by just seeing if there's even enough support for an idea such as this.

Link: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/242970-fpga-based-videogame-system/

For those who just see his name in passing- this guy is quickly earning a name for himself in the retro gaming community. He made the NES HDMI kit which basically saved Analogue's ass just recently and he tells us he has many working FPGA emulation cores. Then he was jerked around by the RVGS team as you may have read here.

Just follow the link above for more info about his ideas right now.

THAT is the system we wanted and that makes sense today. I hope he sees that people would support his vision, especially because he has earned the respect people are giving him by showing tangible results from his hard work. Not by buying Atari tooling and e-begging. I'm just hoping the Retro POS doesn't poison the well if he tries crowdfunding.

Even his screen name was made for a console! Which would you rather buy? The Retro VGS or The Kevtris!

I would back this if done right and if feedback is carefully taken into consideration, which seems to be the case with Kevtris. Design by committee can generate some bland stuff, but much of the ground work is done on his part and it looks good and highly desirable. It's also to cater to a niche that knows what it does and doesn't want, not attempting to read the future and figure out what consumers may want in future electronics. RVGS had a pretty easy task when you think about it, and they blew it.

Kevtris has been around for years and already had a good reputation. I came across his name regularly surfing NES/retro sites as a kid during the 90s, reading stuff that flew over my head because of his crazy technical know-how. Old articles:
http://www.kevtris.org/nes/nestuff2.txt
http://nesdev.com/vrcvi.txt

Kevtris is a homebrew Colecovision game he made years ago: http://www.colecovision.dk/horton.htm

There were two "retro" systems that could have been made by RVGS and neither was properly adhered to: a lean $150 console aiming for new software (digital or physical media), or a reasonably more expensive all-in-one hardware emulator box that played old game, flash carts and SD card roms with perfect visuals/sound. This latter one is basically a Retron that isn't crap, like many of us have wanted for years.

Nobody wants your controller (2 stars on Amazon) and nobody wants your pack-in game, it's a blatant ripoff of Super Frog for Amiga.

To be honest, the two games don't seem alike at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbFjBmVT_J4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZfX-EvDeNc

I wouldn't trash on the Tiny Knight dev just because they got mixed up in this. Decent-looking little game that exists vs. vaporware.

These guys have a ton of experience.

It doesn't show with the way this has been handled. The people behind this may be passionate and have technical backgrounds, but they don't know how to run a company, interact with the public, keep promises made, conduct themselves professionally with potential business partners, work at an efficient pace... and they definitely don't know how to design and launch a new console. They do seem good at proposing bad solutions to problems that shouldn't be problems in the first place.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Wow, confirmation straight from him that his priorities are in the completely wrong place. Look like I'm VERY out.

They haven't been hiding that, it's what they've been saying right from the very start. The guy looked at XBox Live and PSN and saw all these modern retro-style games, and thought how great it would be if they were all on cartridge like the old days, with near-instant ability to play and no hassles, as if it actually *was* a rediscovered game from the 90's. The FPGA wasn't for playing old games from the 80's and 90's, it was for modern developers who are writing new games for old systems. The ability to play old games using cartridge adapters was something he mentioned quite recently as an optional thing, after the backlash for the system price.

Nobody wants your controller (2 stars on Amazon)

You've been reading and posting about this system all this time and you *still* don't know that the reason the controller got bad reviews on Wii U was its crappy wireless reception, and that the version for the Retro VGS is wired so won't have those issues? Or are you just trolling?

 

[Khaz]

Yeah lets not trash a game because it's inspired by another old game, or we will soon be trashing 99% of all the videogames ever created. Besides, since when being inspired by an existing game is a bad thing? I didn't read much outrage when Mighty No9 or Pillars of eternity were announced.

 

[Khaz]

The FPGA wasn't for playing old games from the 80's and 90's, it was for modern developers who are writing new games for old systems.

But why would any dev use this FPGA thing for their game when they have an ARM processor to play with? Why would they spend any amount of time and money for a processor that is the nichest of the niches? At least porting to an ARM device paves the way to porting to other ARM devices like the massively popular mobile devices. But FPGA? Why?

 

[Vipershark]

The FPGA wasn't for playing old games from the 80's and 90's, it was for modern developers who are writing new games for old systems. The ability to play old games using cartridge adapters was something he mentioned quite recently as an optional thing, after the backlash for the system price.

I'm a bit confused on how this detracts from my point, though.
The FPGA is there so you can write new "native" software for old consoles which can be played on this system or in theory also played on the original hardware through flash carts or repro flashing.

I personally have little to no desire to use this system specifically for playing my old games that I already own on new hardware (but the prospect of playing my old games with native HDMI certainly doesn't hurt!), my main draw is the ability to develop for old systems using modern tools and having an all-in-one devkit to do so. I personally don't mind the possibility of not having the original cartridge connectors so long as the VGS is able to do (through addons or otherwise) everything the original systems were, cycle-for-cycle.

Mike stated that this isn't the VGS' main purpose though, and that the primary focus of the system is to play games that are "retro" (which means nothing) which is something I have no desire for whatsoever.

I would have no problem with (and maybe even use!) the ARM half of the system if it was merely an add-on or at the very least a secondary feature that happened to be included but Mike confirmed above that he's doing the complete opposite of that.

 

[goldenpp72]

I was excited for this system for awhile but, I recall mentioning not being on board with the pricing and changes in the last topic, seems I wasn't the only one.

 

[foobarry81]

Yeah lets not trash a game because it's inspired by another old game, or we will soon be trashing 99% of all the videogames ever created. Besides, since when being inspired by an existing game is a bad thing? I didn't read much outrage when Mighty No9 or Pillars of eternity were announced.

You may have picked the wrong examples there. Mighty No9 or Pillars of Eternity were essentially made by the same people that did the games they were inspired by.

 

[emb]

I personally feel like the inclusion of the ARM CPU at all is pretty much idiotic. I understand the appeal of playing games you like on cartridges but a system dedicated to "retro styled" games is pretty dumb, to say the least. (Because if you remove the FPGA, that's all that's left.) I don't want some dumb tablet shoved into a box or Ouya 2 or underpowered PC specifically to play the games I already own on Steam, cartridges or not.
Especially considering that "retro-styled" is nothing but a buzzword and the games themselves follow no particular architecture requirements (Shovel Knight might look like an NES game but isn't possible on an NES, for example), a console dedicated to playing those games is, putting it lightly, stupid.

I feel like the people complaining that the FPGA should be removed in favor or the ARM are extremely misguided because the actual "magic" of this system comes from the FPGA.

The ability to play your old games as well as code new ones on "native" hardware was always the main draw for the VGS, along with Mike's proposals about propositioning companies to rerelease and/or create sequels to old IP.
The ARM and ability to play not-actually-retro games with some cartridges is more of a tacked-on feature at best.

On that note, the people saying Kevtris' system is the superior choice are correct. If anything, it should be the ARM that's the add-on, not the FPGA.

You and I want the exact opposite things from this system, and neither of us are getting it.

They really should have picked a direction and ran with it, instead of trying to do everything.

 

[Lynd7]

I think it could have been a better idea to not have made a console, but rather, become a mini retro games publisher. Rounding up and getting more people interested in coding for the actual old machines.

Retro could have been the middle man for a lot of people who may not know how or can't be bothered to go about having carts and boxes made. Maybe not as ambitious, but if there was a lively amount of new NES games coming out, wouldn't that be cool?

 

[ultrazilla]

I'd like for them to mend their bridges with Kevtris
and bring him on board. Scrub the current campaign,
let Kevtris and crew redesign the Retro with a price
point between $150-$250 tops(which Kevtris said is
possible with his proposed system). Get a
prototype working and relaunch the campaign on
Kickstarter.

 

[NeOak]

I'd like for them to mend their bridges with Kevtris
and bring him on board. Scrub the current campaign,
let Kevtris and crew redesign the Retro with a price
point between $150-$250 tops(which Kevtris said is
possible with his proposed system). Get a
prototype working and relaunch the campaign on
Kickstarter.

Seems the HW designer's ego won't let this happen, which is what I understood according to Kevtris' post.

 

[THE-JUV]

I really wanted to support this system but so far this seems like a disaster. I honestly think the best thing to do at this point is admit they made a mistake in what they thought the people who wanted this system actually wanted, cancel this current project, take the feedback and criticisms from everyone involved to heart, put something together once they have a prototype that may not be as ambitious, but is more in line with what people are willing to fork out price wise for this system and relaunch the campaign again, preferable on KS.

This new system they would relaunch with may not be exactly the dream system they wanted to put together, but it's better at this stage to put together a system that still meets some of their goals, is more likely to be funded, and if that is successful and they develop a stable brand from it, maybe they can move on for the next rendition to try and tackle their dream system at another time.

I think in its current form its gonna be impossible for this thing to get funded and meet its goal on IGG.

 

[ElectricThunder]

Kevtris would have to be some kind of insanely saintly dude to jump back in with this lot after they've seemingly dropped him at a moment's notice for no sensible reason---trust is a valuable thing right up there with benefit of the doubt, and this whole baffling affair has seen it lit up like a gasoline spritzed Christmas Tree.

I mean, what's to stop him being "unloaded" much the same again? Nah, these folks are surely done with anything that can have their names readily attached and recognized tied to this again.

Or....maybe....this was all a cunning plan! By descending to levels of foolishness the likes of which none could've foreseen, they play the villainous foil to raise Kevtris up with the motivation to finally do the thing right, as perhaps only he can, after all these years. Then, with the dust settled, they amble off into the sunset---leaving future historians to discover their bold gambit to take one for the team on the greater good~

Yeah.

 

[Dreamwriter]

I'm a bit confused on how this detracts from my point, though.
The FPGA is there so you can write new "native" software for old consoles which can be played on this system or in theory also played on the original hardware through flash carts or repro flashing.

I personally have little to no desire to use this system specifically for playing my old games that I already own on new hardware (but the prospect of playing my old games with native HDMI certainly doesn't hurt!), my main draw is the ability to develop for old systems using modern tools and having an all-in-one devkit to do so. I personally don't mind the possibility of not having the original cartridge connectors so long as the VGS is able to do (through addons or otherwise) everything the original systems were, cycle-for-cycle.

Mike stated that this isn't the VGS' main purpose though, and that the primary focus of the system is to play games that are "retro" (which means nothing) which is something I have no desire for whatsoever.

I would have no problem with (and maybe even use!) the ARM half of the system if it was merely an add-on or at the very least a secondary feature that happened to be included but Mike confirmed above that he's doing the complete opposite of that.

I don't understand. Mike was saying the point of the system isn't to play old NES/whatever games, but to play new retro-style games. That includes new games written for old NES/whatever systems - do you really think a modern 8-bit game isn't a retro-style game? The ARM part is entirely optional for developers.

 

[NoFaceNico]

Kevtris made another detailed post, this time responding to some of Mike's accusations against him:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/235430-how-has-this-not-been-posted-yet-retro-vgs/?p=3326949

kevtris, on 21 Sept 2015 - 5:15 PM, said:
I will reply to the Retro VGS comments here, because 1) I don't have FB, and 2) they will just delete my replies.

RETRO VGS We were going to contract with Kevin and license his cores at $10K/Core, his asking price. Plus we were going to help fund his development of the 16 bit cores. Then he throws US under the bus. He has a prototype board, we have the even more expensve part of the process in hand the tooling. We would have been happy to work with him, but instead, he wants to attempt to compete with our product with an expensive $200-$250 bare board that won't do half of what the RETRO VGS would do.
Like · Reply · 47 minutes ago · Edited

* This is only partially true. $10K was for the stuff like RCA Studio 2, and Channel F. I was looking for $50K or so for things like NES and 2600.

* I got blown off 2 weeks ago on our meeting to discuss cores, because the system was most likely not going to have an FPGA in it any more. I can quote what you told me on 9/8/15 if that helps:

We are going to hold off for now. Still debating whether or not the FPGA will make it in our system.

Once the IGG thing basically proved the FPGA was going to be a pie-in-the-sky add-on, I knew I had been made redundant. I figured at this point it was just going to be like a Retron 5 and bundle emulators and cart dumpers at the best.

* The $200-250 price I quoted is A COMPLETE SYSTEM and not the bare board. This is a board, case, and power supply. Pack-in games are not required (though I could throw in a homebrew NES title maybe). Controllers would probably be extra, but since I accept USB controllers, you can plug literally any HID and use it. This means controllers, keyboards, and mice. Obviously it'd be kinda hard to play a 2600 game with a mouse, but I'm more thinking for FPGA computer projects and not just games.

* You and you jag mold are like a mule with a spinning wheel. Damned if anyone knows how he got it, and damned if he knows how to use it. (sorry Simpsons). Fortunately, today making a plastic injection mold isn't so brutally expensive. My friend got a brand new NES cartridge shell mold made a few months ago. The process was fast, the parts are awesome and the cost was insanely cheap. It was cheap enough that I could float the cost without resorting to Kickstarter/IGG. For a Jag sized mold, the costs are a lot higher, but since my system will be quite small I don't have all that extra cost housing air and unicorns. My friend already got a crapload of cart cases made with the mold and is starting to sell them over on the nesdev forum. If you need boards/cart shells for your homebrew that's the place to go.

* So far, my board infinitely more than yours does. It's hard to divide by zero and come up with any other answer.

RETRO VGS When he actually does some homework on what it would take to "consumerize" his product and put his bare board into a console shell, add a controller and pack-in game, and incorporate the ARM and both the digital and analog output, go through the regulatory process, etc. he will find out he can't do it for any for any less than we can. I guarantee you all that!
Like · Reply · 46 minutes ago · Edited

* I have done my homework. I have over 100 products under my belt between my home stuff, freelance stuff, and work. Some of them involved a plastic injection molded enclosure. I have been through the entire certification process (for a medical device no less). I own a patent. I think I have a tiny tiny bit of knowledge when it comes down to how to design and see a product through to production and shipping.

* I can add an ARM CPU to my design. At this time I just don't WANT to. The ARM CPU doesn't add anything that I wish to have in my "vision" for the system. The good news is if I wanted an ARM based videogame system I can just MAKE one on the friggin' FPGA directly! Granted it won't run as fast as a dedicated "hard" CPU core would, but we're talking about games here and not the Android OS.

* You must've missed the part about my FPGA board and its plethora of outputs. I already have 100% finished working video in the following formats (today, right now. I can show them off)

1) HDMI at 1080p/60fps, 1080p/50fps, 720p/60fps, 720/,50fps, 480p/60fps, and 576p/50fps.
2) RGB at 31KHz (VGA rate) or any of the HDMI rates
3) RGB at 15KHz (NTSC or PAL rates)
4) Component at any of these rates
5) Composite in PAL and NTSC and "direct system output" which emulates the target system's video EXACTLY. both voltage levels and timing wise.
6) S-video in PAL and NTSC

All of these outputs are 100% digitally generated inside the FPGA for absolute maximum quality.

Audio's currently 16 bits, 48KHz. I can output anything else though like 192KHz/24 bit. Internally right now my audio is 18 bit stereo.

RETRO VGS The main focus of RETRO VGS isn't to play old games but these new retro games being made today, on cartridges. His product is just another way to emulate like dozens of products before it. And with the FPGA it won't compete in any way, shape or form with the countless other software emulated systems out there. His is a failed model from the start and it's a shame he couldn't combine his efforts with our product and make a real compelling product that would do something unlike any other system on the market.
Like · Reply · 58 minutes ago

* Interesting that you hated the word "emulate" when I was in discussions and you were using the term "simulate". The difference between my board and any other emulator is the time and effort I put in to achieve the maximum quality of the end result. Anyone can throw together a R Pi and make an emulator box. I'm selling higher quality outputs (video/audio), absolutely zero lag (even on HDMI), and higher accuracy. My FPGA 2600 has higher accuracy on a few things vs. Stella even. I also am going for breadth and width. I support the Supercharger Demo Unit. I don't see that elsewhere (granted, it's not that big of a deal but I am going for as much inclusiveness as possible). I support Atarivox- there's a friggin PIC18F core I wrote specifically to simulate this add-on. The supercharger demo unit took a new 6800 CPU core as well. So the 2600 has actually no less than three CPUs in it.

* So far your system hasn't been documented at all. So comparing what you want to do with anything else is impossible.

RETRO VGS And, he isn't the only game in town when it comes to FPGA core development.
Like · Reply · 48 minutes ago

Yep. I will just drive down to the Core Store and... oh wait. I'm pretty much the only game in town if you want finished cores with any kind of standard interface between them and all the testing and development work I put in on this.

I will give another ferinstance here for fun. If anyone is curious how much trouble I went to for Gameboy, here we go:

Unlike most other videogame systems, a gameboy's video is not "continuous". A CRT won't wait for pixels, but the LCD on the Gameboy does. This little detail caused huge headaches because each scanline renders for a different amount of time based on what's present on the scanline. The X scroll, Y scroll, window position, even sprites (position AND count) all interact together to change how long it takes. And games rely on this too. Some games will fail or show glitchy graphics if this isn't exactly emulated.

To crack this particularly tough nut, I had to resort to a brute-force approach. This involved taking a gameboy apart, and rebuilding it on perf board so that I could attach some equipment and monitor what exactly happens.

The first step was to make the doctored Gameboy:

Here's a close up of the wiring:

Next, it was hooked into the mothership (my logic analyzer) with a billion probe wires to every point on the GB chip:

Then I can use my logic analyzer (an HP 16700B) to trace out EXACTLY what the chip is doing in black and white when certain "interesting" things happen like the sprite DMA:

After all this mess, I piped the perfboard gameboy's LCD signals into some FPGA pins and made a quick and dirty CRT interface so I could play the GB games on my PVM:

Finally, after writing some test code that runs on both the GB and my FPGA and communicates through the link port, I had my FPGA GB video signals exactly matching the
real GB's video signals:

So after all this mess, I finished my GB core and got cycle accuracy. Now imagine doing this for all the systems I have added, and you get some small idea of the trouble I have gone through in my quest for accuracy.

A few more ferinstances:

* Because the Videobrain is so stupidly rare and expensive, I came across some of the custom ASICs at a surplus place, found the schematic for it and made my own damn Videobrain on perfboard! This was then hooked into the logic analyzer and extensively probed.

* Arcadia 2001's were expensive and rare too, so I found a schematic, bought the weird CPU and video chips cheap and built a perf version of that as well, and hooked it into the LA (logic analyzer)

* Atari 2600 and 7800 were a bit easier, I just had to solder .1" headers to the chips and plug the logic analyzer in.

* Intv was similar- just soldered .1" headers on and plugged it in.

* Supervision- had to make an extensive debug setup with a UART cart and lots of .1" headers for the logic analyzer and oscilloscope (during audio debug)

* Complete cycle by cycle investigation of the Odyssey^2's video chip using custom hardware to single step it (Actually single HALF step it- it uses both clock edges) to get absolute accuracy

There's more but this is a small sampling of the trouble I go through in my quest for accuracy. I doubt you will find anyone who has gone to these lengths to ensure accuracy and compatibility. Good luck in your search for cores of this caliber.

So, Dreamwriter, do you still think it's a bad idea to show off your hard work even when it's a rat's nest of wiring? The RVGS crew has nothing to show us because they've worked on nothing.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

But why would any dev use this FPGA thing for their game when they have an ARM processor to play with? Why would they spend any amount of time and money for a processor that is the nichest of the niches? At least porting to an ARM device paves the way to porting to other ARM devices like the massively popular mobile devices. But FPGA? Why?

Well, one of the benefits of FPGA is that you are literally recreating the original hardware circuitry of the target platform. So it's going to be 1:1 cycle-accurate versus pretty much every software emulator on PC today, which aims more for speed and using that to make up for loss of accuracy. There are very few games that depend on the original hardware cycles to function, which is why some of them are unplayable on popular emulators.

Put it this way, you know how most Saturn emulators are....not very good? That's because they don't aim for cycle accuracy. Which would be VERY hard to do because there isn't a PC out there right now on the consumer market powerful enough to emulate Saturn hardware on terms of CAS. But if there was, that emulator would run every single Saturn game perfectly with zero problems whatsoever, just like the original hardware.

There's value in aiming for cycle-accurate simulation, especially as the original consoles become less and less common as time goes on.

 

[Friend of Sonic]

LOL Kevtris has me rolling. I respect this dude.

 

[ElectricThunder]

Kevtris only seems immensely more competent and with it on this with each post of his while the other side just diminishes themselves further still---downright amazing and actually more informative than anything scoped in their entire written pitch.

Hell, they've cast salt at somebody in the same relative Skilled Circle as Aly James, byuu, NightRadio, ctrix, etc---what in the world did they think would happen? Did they somehow initially get him on board perceiving him as some kind of junior "lesser" that would quietly handle some between the lines grunt work then meekly wilt away from the limelight?

Outstanding.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

The RVGS team probably thought they could just subcontract out the FPGA Cores to some jerkwad they could take advantage of.

As it turns out, this individual (Kevtris) probably should have been offered to be brought on the team officially as lead hardware engineer.

 

[NeOak]

Kevtris made another detailed post, this time responding to some of Mike's accusations against him:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/235430-how-has-this-not-been-posted-yet-retro-vgs/?p=3326949


So, Dreamwriter, do you still think it's a bad idea to show off your hard work even when it's a rat's nest of wiring? The RVGS crew has nothing to show us because they've worked on nothing.

As someone that wrote VHDL code for FPGAs, I bow to this guy. Jesus Christ.

 

[Vipershark]

I don't understand. Mike was saying the point of the system isn't to play old NES/whatever games, but to play new retro-style games. That includes new games written for old NES/whatever systems - do you really think a modern 8-bit game isn't a retro-style game? The ARM part is entirely optional for developers.

In order to answer this question, I think it's important to first define what we're talking about. Both of us keep using the word "retro" to refer to multiple things and I feel like that's throwing us off.

For that reason, I'm going to refer to things like this:

• Modern: Games ported from other platforms such as the PC and intended to be played using the ARM chip for the purposes of playing already-existing digital games in cartridge format. These are games that might look and feel like old games but would never actually be possible on old systems in their current form. This includes Shovel Knight, Shantae, etc. In other words, new games which would be played on the VGS using the ARM chip.
• Classic: Games coded for platforms such as the SNES, Genesis, etc which never existed (officially) on those platforms at the time and therefore have been coded with modern tools and techniques to work natively on old hardware. This includes Tiny Knight (it was originally intended as an actual SNES cart, from my understanding), Pier Solar's Genesis version, and other games like Battle Kid: Fortress of Peril, Streemerz, etc. In other words, new homebrew for old systems which would be played on the VGS using the FPGA.
• Original: The games originally released for old platforms. This includes Super Noah's Ark 3D and every officially licensed game released. These would be played on the VGS using the FPGA either through VGS-specific rereleases (a developer agrees to rerelease a rom in the Jaguar cart shell) or through some kind of adapter which would let you plug your old carts in.

With that out of the way, I'll re-quote Mike's message.

RETRO VGS The main focus of RETRO VGS isn't to play old games but these new retro games being made today, on cartridges. His product is just another way to emulate like dozens of products before it. And with the FPGA it won't compete in any way, shape or form with the countless other software emulated systems out there. His is a failed model from the start and it's a shame he couldn't combine his efforts with our product and make a real compelling product that would do something unlike any other system on the market.
Like · Reply · 58 minutes ago

Unless I'm misinterpreting something here, when Mike talks about "new retro", he's specifically talking about Modern games, not Classic ones. While it's pretty obvious that him saying "the main focus ... isn't to play 'old' games" clearly refers to Original games, his bashing of Kevtris' system (and also the FPGA) as a "failed model" leads me to believe that he's talking about Classic games as well. He seems to imply that without something to make Kevtris' system different (in this case, the ARM chip), it's nothing but a clone system or emulator box like the Retro Bit or Retron 5. In other words, if the VGS didn't have the ARM chip to differentiate itself, it would be a "failed model" as well.

Because who's going to buy yet another system just to play old (Classic/Original) games, right? People want new old (Modern) games!

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems like Mike doesn't want a system that just allows you to play old (Classic/Original) stuff because [he believes] nobody will actually code for those architectures. The money is in the Modern games while the FPGA is just kind of hanging on in case any official developers decide that they want to rerelease some roms on the VGS for some side cash or something.

edit- The post above where Kevtris noted that they "hadn't yet decided whether an FPGA would still be in the system" confirms this for me as well. It looks to me like they had a meeting and decided that the base system will either be ARM only or ARM and a very small FPGA likely only capable of pre-NES systems, neither of which I want. The 3 million stretch goal seems to imply "okay, we'll care about the FPGA now" and allow for more powerful systems to be included finally but the base system of the VGS is very clearly ARM-centric and would have shipped with the ARM as its main hardware feature regardless.

edit 2- I realize my post has a bit of a contradiction. If the FPGA isn't there, how will the system play Tiny Knight if it was made for SNES? I don't actually have an answer for that but at the same time I feel like they didn't really think that far ahead themselves. Maybe it's being ported to ARM or they're working on an SNES emulator to play games with. I'm not sure. Regardless, it's important to note that Kevtris has not yet made an SNES core so even if he was still on board they wouldn't have one and now that he's NOT on board, the chances of them having one are infinitely less. Either way, there's no way Tiny Knight would be on this thing any time soon.

 

[Feel_The_Pain]

At this rate might as well be a modern console comparable to ps4 / xb1 with an option to buy carts, discs or digital.

 

[NormalFish]

Kevtris mentioned it in some of his posts, but his youtube channel is cool. lots of it goes totally over my head but I enjoy watching him work.

Also it's hilarious that this has woken the beast to such an extent. They went from partners dropping out to partners making fun, and directly competing with them. Hysterical, tbh.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

That FPGA stuff sounds awfully cool, but what's the legality of duplicating old systems 1:1 like this?

 

[NeOak]

That FPGA stuff sounds awfully cool, but what's the legality of duplicating old systems 1:1 like this?

I think certain patents have expired IIRC.

And least Nintendo doesn't seem to care as long as you use legitimate carts.

 

[Rich!]

That FPGA stuff sounds awfully cool, but what's the legality of duplicating old systems 1:1 like this?

Legal.

Patents are expired. Same reason why clone NES and SNES consoles are available in the commercial market now.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

That FPGA stuff sounds awfully cool, but what's the legality of duplicating old systems 1:1 like this?

I always thought there would be some licensing agreements in place with the original manufacturers. You know, similar to what Sega had/has with TecToy in Brazil.

 

[ElectricThunder]

Ironically, the most supremely legal of all would be the actual Jaguar and even moreso the Vectrex---with the former going free and open and the latter full-on public domain back before the internet tech scene got all jazzed up about even just getting stuff somewhat open and thus has done next to nothing with it since save the musical sorcery of ctrix and maybe a tad more. :/

The rest are just lapsed stuff beyond the statutes....not sure about newer disc based and/or BIOS bearing stuff like the PSX and whatnot. Probably some years yet alongside FPGA doings being years away from things of that relative heft as they content with older machines getting fully wrought and perhaps the vast and terrifying sea that is the Arcade scene.

 

[Khaz]

Well, one of the benefits of FPGA is that you are literally recreating the original hardware circuitry of the target platform. So it's going to be 1:1 cycle-accurate versus pretty much every software emulator on PC today, which aims more for speed and using that to make up for loss of accuracy. There are very few games that depend on the original hardware cycles to function, which is why some of them are unplayable on popular emulators.

Put it this way, you know how most Saturn emulators are....not very good? That's because they don't aim for cycle accuracy. Which would be VERY hard to do because there isn't a PC out there right now on the consumer market powerful enough to emulate Saturn hardware on terms of CAS. But if there was, that emulator would run every single Saturn game perfectly with zero problems whatsoever, just like the original hardware.

There's value in aiming for cycle-accurate simulation, especially as the original consoles become less and less common as time goes on.

Except I'm asking about why would any modern dev use an extra FPGA for their modern "retro" game when they have an ipad ARM to use already. I'm well aware of the use of an FPGA in reproduction of old hardware.

 

[Vipershark]

Except I'm asking about why would any modern dev use an extra FPGA for their modern "retro" game when they have an ipad ARM to use already. I'm well aware of the use of an FPGA in reproduction of old hardware.

Well, that kind of depends.
Do you want to make a game that accurately follows the limitations and restrictions of the target platform to the point where it's able to run on official hardware (since technically it kind of is the official hardware)?
If so, then you want to program for the FPGA.

If you want to make a game that simply looks and sounds like a "retro" game (which in itself is iffy) but doesn't follow anything that would actually make it be one, you want to use the ARM. Or if you want to make games that aren't "retro" at all and go full-on iPad game, you want to use the ARM.

That's really all there is to it.

 

[Khaz]

You said it yourself, their goal was to cater to indie devs making modern games with a retro look, the kind who publishes on Steam and XBLA or whatever. The basic FPGA that were to be included wouldn't have been able to run the cores of the 8 and 16bits consoles. To quote yourself:

Unless I'm misinterpreting something here, when Mike talks about "new retro", he's specifically talking about Modern games, not Classic ones. While it's pretty obvious that him saying "the main focus ... isn't to play 'old' games" clearly refers to Original games, his bashing of Kevtris' system (and also the FPGA) as a "failed model" leads me to believe that he's talking about Classic games as well.

Overall I agree with you, I'm just questioning their stance of including an FPGA in their Ouya in order to give indie PC devs some magic powers:

Just like every console in history, there is a learning curve for devs. They will learn how to exploit the FPGA/ARM combo and make some incredible games throughout the life of RVGS. Think of this FPGA/ARM combo as a way for devs to create their own custom effects, like the Super FX chip on the SNES and expansion pack on the N64. It's like that but with infinitely more built in capability.

Please don't hold us to standards that have never applied to a fledgling console.

- Mike

Any dev using the combo FPGA/ARM will restrain themselves to a single, very niche, platform. No one wants that.

 

[Vipershark]

Ohhhhh, okay. I was misreading what you said. I thought you were asking why anyone would want to code for an FPGA (alone), period.

My interpretation of that is that it will effectively allow the FPGA to operate as a single "expansion" chip of sorts while the ARM runs at full power.

Think of the SNES/Super FX combo that he brings up in his example. Without the SFX chip, the SNES was still a fully capable system in its own right but with the SFX chip inserted it was then able to do more things such as 3D and faster math functions because they were working in tandem.
It wouldn't be possible to directly port Sonic from the Genesis to the SNES and have it be able to run at full speed without the SFX, for example, because the SFX is what gave the SNES faster math to be on par with the Genesis' CPU speed. Sure, it would be possible to boot the game, but it would run incredibly slow and not be fun to play at all.

You can run fully capable ARM-only games and there's nothing stopping you from developing only on that chip, but the FPGA allows you to use functions outside of what the ARM alone can do.

I'm pulling this example out of my ass here but in theory by using the small FPGA you could do something like replicate the Sega Genesis' YM2612 sound chip to give you that genuine synthy sound out of a more modern game without having to sap cycles from the ARM by emulating it. The ARM could probably do it alone, but it would likely detract from the game experience.

Think of it as something like an "enhanced version" of the original game. Old carts used to do it all the time. Donkey Kong '94 got new effects when played on the Super Game Boy, but was a perfectly playable game when using a regular GB. Castlevania 3 simply used the NES' 2A03 sound chip for the international release, while the Japan-only version got better music through a new chip that interfaced with the Famicom. The FDS versions of games had more features than the NES versions though they were otherwise identical, etc.
If anything, adding exclusive features like that could give consumers an added incentive to buy games on the RVGS platform as opposed to digital ones.

It seems to me that they're including the small FPGA for mostly single-chip reproductions or very simple pre-NES consoles, while the stretch goal version is the FPGA anyone actually wants.
...but then again, their descriptions are so vague that I could be completely wrong. We don't know the actual hardware capabilities they're aiming for.

 

[ONLYUSEmeFEET]

I make mobile games and while I know their chart is fucked in many ways, the false accusations of mobile development on their game console comparison chart ignited me to make this comment on their page. It'll be deleted, sure, but may as well try to save some poor soul from investing in the project.

Hey, looked at your indigogo and found a table on it detailing why the VGS is better than mobile. As a game/mobile developer I have to say mobile gaming's representation on the table is false and I'd also say dishonest just so the VGS can look better. Let's break it down. Upfront I only have extensive experience in Android development so this post is geared towards that.

1. Mobile games do not only use the touch screen. There's many USB controllers available for mobile along with other solutions such as Bluetooth and stick-on buttons. Without knowing the API to the VGS I'm not even sure how I'd be able to get controllers working on your system. Is there any way to remap buttons? What if my USB controller requires a driver to run properly, will the VGS support it? Without even knowing the OS of the VGS my guess is most likely as good as yours.

2. Your mobile prices are dishonest. Mobile devices can cost anywhere between $30 and $600. Thing is, devices like the Kindle Fire HD cost $150 with plenty of cheaper Android devices available. And while I don't know the specs of the VGS (and nobody does because a prototype doesn't even exist) I'd argue the Fire HD probably outclasses it in raw power. Stating the cheapest mobile device one can buy is $200 is not simply true.

3. The durable media category for mobile doesn't make sense. On Android, I can get .apks for most apps I own. I can put these anywhere I want and install them as many times as I need. Unlike a cartridge, my files will last forever between the cloud and weekly backups. Oh yeah, this also means my games are completely transferable. Most popular apps even have systems in place to transfer saves between devices, Apple to Android or opposite. Could I take my Shantae data from Wii U to the VGS? Doubt it.

4. Mobile devices have no video out? Really? http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/how-to/google-android/how-connect-android-tv-3533870/ At least do a little bit of research.

Not even going to go into why having no patches is actually a bad thing and how ludicrous it is to expect devs to deliver bug-free games. This campaign has been rocky, I understand that, but when you're actually lying to your potential investors and giving a false sense of what mobile game dev is about, you can't really expect to get away with it, can you? The entire table is a mess so I'd make the suggestion to actually remove it completely from the campaign.

I showed a few people at work who are also mobile developers the table and we all had a good laugh at how inaccurate mobile development is represented. As I said, I'm a game developer, one that was interested in VGS development, but the complete misrepresentation of the system I develop for has turned me off to your campaign entirely.

 

[Ziffles]

Any dev using the combo FPGA/ARM will restrain themselves to a single, very niche, platform. No one wants that.

I hadn't even thought of that. Who in their right mind would make a custom title for this? After their temper tantrum this past weekend, their insistence that developers "will learn how to exploit" the chips just takes on a new level of arrogance and delusion, and it's pretty clear they don't have a lot of respect for developers or outside experts.

Shameless self-quote:

the more I think about this the more brain-meltingly stupid it becomes.

 

[mosaic]

I've seen a bit more coverage of the Indiegogo, but it looks like the backer count only went up a couple since last night. I have a feeling those that don't see fan "buzz" are looking at the price and pitch and going "no thanks." In my wildest nightmares I never thought their campaign would fail so mightily.

Still probably would've fared better on Kickstarter though...

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

I think it surely would have done better on KS, but not enough to make their goal at this point. I can't believe how slow it has been going after the first day rush. There is absolutely nothing they could do to make this succeed.