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[Ninja Scooter]

I've seen a bit more coverage of the Indiegogo, but it looks like the backer count only went up a couple since last night. I have a feeling those that don't see fan "buzz" are looking at the price and pitch and going "no thanks." In my wildest nightmares I never thought their campaign would fail so mightily.

Still probably would've fared better on Kickstarter though...

Is it really that surprising? I mean, how big of an audience is there of people willing to pay $300+ in order to play/buy more expensive cartridge versions of games that are available elsewhere. It seems like a super small niche.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

There is absolutely nothing they could do to make this succeed.

In it's current form it's at best a colossal failure in every conceivable aspect.

The IGG needs to be immediately cancelled/refunded so this entire project can be completely rebooted. It is painfully obvious that the current team (3 people) are in way over their heads for such an ambitious project. Bringing on additional, permanent, team members i.e. public relations, hardware/software engineers(Kevtris), indie developer liaisons, etc. is going to be practically a requirement going forward.

 

[Khaz]

I don't know, bridges have burned with Kevtris. They may need him, but he definitely doesn't need them.

But yeah, stopping the trainwreck and taking a long time to reflect is the least they should do.

 

[Bob Dobalina]

This was a really depressing thread to read, I wish things could have worked better for all parties. Cancel the IGG, get your shit together and come back with a campaign not based on insulting others.

 

[outunderthestars]

Is it really that surprising? I mean, how big of an audience is there of people willing to pay $300+ in order to play/buy more expensive cartridge versions of games that are available elsewhere. It seems like a super small niche.

Exactly. This seems like a flawed cpncept, even if it had been executed in a better manner.

 

[Kabuki Quantum Lover]

I'd be more inclined to back a Retron 5-esque FPGA console that could play all of my old carts than a 'modern' cartridge system.

 

[NeOak]

Any new comment from then on Facebook or other place so I can facepalm more?

Spoiler

I'm bored at work

 

[ultrazilla]

Any new comment from then on Facebook or other place so I can facepalm more?

Spoiler

I'm bored at work

They linked to the Micheal Pachter article regarding his "last console cycle" article. That's it.

 

[NoFaceNico]

They've been pretty quite today. I guess they're waiting for all the press that's gonna make this go viral, right?

 

[Mega]

My interpretation of that is that it will effectively allow the FPGA to operate as a single "expansion" chip of sorts while the ARM runs at full power.

Think of the SNES/Super FX combo that he brings up in his example. Without the SFX chip, the SNES was still a fully capable system in its own right but with the SFX chip inserted it was then able to do more things such as 3D and faster math functions because they were working in tandem.

You can run fully capable ARM-only games and there's nothing stopping you from developing only on that chip, but the FPGA allows you to use functions outside of what the ARM alone can do.

I'm pulling this example out of my ass here but in theory by using the small FPGA you could do something like replicate the Sega Genesis' YM2612 sound chip to give you that genuine synthy sound out of a more modern game without having to sap cycles from the ARM by emulating it. The ARM could probably do it alone, but it would likely detract from the game experience.

Think of it as something like an "enhanced version" of the original game. Old carts used to do it all the time. Donkey Kong '94 got new effects when played on the Super Game Boy, but was a perfectly playable game when using a regular GB. Castlevania 3 simply used the NES' 2A03 sound chip for the international release, while the Japan-only version got better music through a new chip that interfaced with the Famicom. The FDS versions of games had more features than the NES versions though they were otherwise identical, etc.
If anything, adding exclusive features like that could give consumers an added incentive to buy games on the RVGS platform as opposed to digital ones.

It seems to me that they're including the small FPGA for mostly single-chip reproductions or very simple pre-NES consoles, while the stretch goal version is the FPGA anyone actually wants.
...but then again, their descriptions are so vague that I could be completely wrong. We don't know the actual hardware capabilities they're aiming for.

The problem is that I doubt any dev porting their game from another platform would commit extra resources for RVGS-specific enhancements to be enjoyed by a very tiny audience. Look at some related real life examples that are simpler than the RVGS scenario and from within the same company:

1. There are almost no Gameboy games that have any enhancements when connected to the Super Gameboy. Both the Gameboy and SNES were huge, the functionality for improvements was there and still almost no one bothered.
2. On the the exact same platform, 3DS to N3DS, there are almost no new games taking advantage of the faster hardware nor older 3DS games improved with a software patch after the fact.

The RVGS scenario would be worse. I can't think of any console that was majorly designed with the hope that they would get ports from competing devices and devs would jump at the opportunity to sink even more costs for improvements, all on an ultra-niche platform where all the effort would be wasted since practically no one would get to experience the added content. Something like Freedom Planet with Genesis accurate soundtrack and audio effects? Yeah right.

Maybe one can say the Wii consoles tried this strategy with the remote and tablet? And that's horrible because the unique third-party efforts were abysmal in the Wii's case and nonexistent for the Wii U. So it makes sense in theory to implement the FPGA as how wanted, but in reality it never pans out and only serves to increase the cost for buyers. It should have been a lean $150 console able to deliver solid new games and ports, no gimmicks.

I'd be more inclined to back a Retron 5-esque FPGA console that could play all of my old carts than a 'modern' cartridge system.

Seems Kevtris is gearing up to make this a reality. He has a fully working prototype, researched the costs and knows exactly the niche that wants to buy it. It's likely a day one purchase for me. I always wanted a Retron-like device that wasn't garbage. It'll be hooked up to my living room HDTV, an alternate setup to my CRTs and original hardware setup. Looking forward to what he manages to make for purchase.

Any new comment from then on Facebook or other place so I can facepalm more?

Spoiler

I'm bored at work

This little discovery from the Atari Age forums was both amusing and sad.
https://denver.craigslist.org/vgm/5231578972.html

 

[ultrazilla]

https://denver.craigslist.org/vgm/5231578972.html[/url]

Wow. Ouch.

Has to be a fan trying to get them some support but seems really desperate. Sigh.

I really wish they'd gracefully end the current campaign and reboot behind the scenes with an eventual Kickstarter relaunch sometime next year.

The key points being a) I really think they need Kevtris on board b) get a working prototype of the system showing it playing an actual cartridge game c) get the price under control. Between $150-$250 tops. d) set a lower campaign goal and add enticing stretch goals tied to higher funding tiers.

The current campaign won't go anywhere I'm afraid. It's DOA.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

This little discovery from the Atari Age forums was both amusing and sad.
https://denver.craigslist.org/vgm/5231578972.html

I saw a Dallas one earlier as well. I'm assuming they are spamming this all over Craigslist. Might as well spam every major city in the US at this point, it might get like 4 or 5 more backers.

I got a kick out of the tags.

 

[Bar81]

I saw a Dallas one earlier as well. I'm assuming they are spamming this all over Craigslist. Might as well spam every major city in the US at this point, it might get like 4 or 5 more backers.

I got a kick out of the tags.

That's just... pathetic. Guess there's not much chance these guys are ever going to come around and stop being asshats.

 

[Kabuki Quantum Lover]

That's just... pathetic. Guess there's not much chance these guys are ever going to come around and stop being asshats.

Probably not. Bring on Kevtris' system.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

Probably not. Bring on Kevtris' system.

An FPGA system would be great. I definitely think there is a market for something that is essentially a Retron 5 that doesn't suck.

An ARM+FPGA system (RVGS) would be awesome but it might be too cost prohibitive.

 

[NoFaceNico]

The key points being a) I really think they need Kevtris on board b) get a working prototype of the system showing it playing an actual cartridge game c) get the price under control. Between $150-$250 tops. d) set a lower campaign goal and add enticing stretch goals tied to higher funding tiers.

Hopefully by next year Kevtris will be doing b), c) and d) all on his own. Unhindered by three guys who have nothing more than Atari tooling and some plans written on the back of a napkin.

By the way, their budgeting is fucking outrageous. Under "Use of Funds" they plan to be "Renting space and equipment for a small office and lab (4% of min. goal)" while they're "building and testing prototypes" that they should have had at the start of the campaign. That 4% of the minimum goal works out to $78,000 they're setting aside for rent. Geez, some guy fishes some old Atari molds out of the trash and he instantly thinks he's the next Steve Jobs.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

Geez, some guy fishes some old Atari molds out of the trash and he instantly thinks he's the next Steve Jobs.

I can see how this has happened though. You sit a few guys down in a room who all consider themselves "Captains of Industry" and they are all patting each other on the back telling each other how awesome they are. Their overinflated egos have made their heads the size of the Goodyear blimp.

They don't need anybody's help nor opinions, and certainly not any advice from some amateur jerkwad like Kevtris.

 

[NormalFish]

Any new comment from then on Facebook or other place so I can facepalm more?

Spoiler

I'm bored at work

Every time I check in on this thread this is what's going through my head. I crave it like particularly nasty meth

 

[OrbitalBeard]

This campaign is now losing more backers than its gaining. I think it's time to call it quits.

 

[Vipershark]

The problem is that I doubt any dev porting their game from another platform would commit extra resources for RVGS-specific enhancements to be enjoyed by a very tiny audience. Look at some related real life examples that are simpler than the RVGS scenario and from within the same company:

1. There are almost no Gameboy games that have any enhancements when connected to the Super Gameboy. Both the Gameboy and SNES were huge, the functionality for improvements was there and still almost no one bothered.
2. On the the exact same platform, 3DS to N3DS, there are almost no new games taking advantage of the faster hardware nor older 3DS games improved with a software patch after the fact.

The RVGS scenario would be worse. I can't think of any console that was majorly designed with the hope that they would get ports from competing devices and devs would jump at the opportunity to sink even more costs for improvements, all on an ultra-niche platform where all the effort would be wasted since practically no one would get to experience the added content. Something like Freedom Planet with Genesis accurate soundtrack and audio effects? Yeah right.

Maybe one can say the Wii consoles tried this strategy with the remote and tablet? And that's horrible because the unique third-party efforts were abysmal in the Wii's case and nonexistent for the Wii U. So it makes sense in theory to implement the FPGA as how wanted, but in reality it never pans out and only serves to increase the cost for buyers. It should have been a lean $150 console able to deliver solid new games and ports, no gimmicks.

Oh I agree, don't get me wrong. I was merely answering Khaz' question as far as what the point or draw of even including an FPGA would be if the console emulation features wouldn't be available.
It might have looked like I was defending the VGS there but I certainly wasn't. This thing is a trainwreck at this point, even with small-FPGA enhancements.

If there was any possible way they could get Kevtris back on board for a relaunched version of this system done right, Jaguar shells and all, I'd probably be interested in giving them a chance but it seems like Mike's pride is much too big for that and Kevin has already moved on. It's unfortunate, but maybe Kevin can release the system we all want instead.

I just really want a modern devkit.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Exactly. This seems like a flawed cpncept, even if it had been executed in a better manner.

The biggest difference between something like the Analogue NT or the Retron is that your relationship with the creators of those products is a one-off. With Retro you are relying on these guys not only to deliver a singular product (the console) but you are also putting your faith in the idea that they will be able to garner extensive and meaningful third party support for it. What if it's funded, you get your console, and then only 2 or 3 games are released before it all comes tumbling down? Why would you put that much trust in these guys with no track record to fall back on?

 

[emb]

This campaign is now losing more backers than its gaining. I think it's time to call it quits.

Wow. Are there stats collected somewhere, or just something you noticed. I was watching how mediocre day two was, kinda payed less attention afterward.

Anyone have bets on how long it takes before they go ahead and end the campaign?

 

[Zubz]

I really want to buy one of these, but I'm not so sure if it's worth the price. I mean, the system looks beautiful, and I'd love to have one on my mantle, but outside of what's already been listed, I don't think future support will be substantial enough to justify buying it over, say, the PS4 (Which I also wanted to buy this year; I'm just holding out for a US price drop).

I wish the Retro VGS guys the best, but I'm not so sure I want to back it at this price. Maybe I'd get it if it was cheaper, or maybe if they do a second campaign if/when my disposable income starts to outweigh my self-appointed budget for necessities/school. But for right now, I think I'm going to just watch how this pans out, and see where the team goes in the future.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Wow. Are there stats collected somewhere, or just something you noticed. I was watching how mediocre day two was, kinda payed less attention afterward.

Anyone have bets on how long it takes before they go ahead and end the campaign?

Just something I've noticed. I believe it was at 186 earlier today and now it's at 183. It happened a couple times yesterday as well. They'll get a few new contributions but they aren't able to offset the people dropping out. They've only had one new backer in the past 12 hours. I honestly don't see this reaching 100k.

 

[Azure Dream]

Classic game (SNES/Gen/Etc) playing aside, which is looking foggy at the moment, the main appeal to this seems to be "Play new games by slapping cartridges into a console, just like old times!" (That and "It's fun for devs to design around limitations", and "They won't need patches," the latter of which is ridiculous.)


At this point, I wonder if they should just develop a modifiable cartridge format (maybe with some memory built in for optional storage/updates, so your saves travel with the cart), and sell a small cartridge slot/deck that plugs in with USB to a PC. Maybe tied with a launcher. Would still allow for the physical form factor joy, but doesn't require building an entire console around it.

Work with various Kickstarters to have some of their physical editions be available in RetroDeck format, because that's the prime audience.

Like real cartridges, the innards could be changed and improved over time. As long as the interface can handle it, it shouldn't really matter.

 

[Ceallach]

I just dont understand who this is meant for

 

[Snaku]

Hasn't even gotten to six digits yet, this is so embarrassing.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

I just dont understand who this is meant for

The niche of the niche of the niche, who the RVGS team just happened to shit all over with abysmal PR.

There is a reason this thing only has 183 backers now (and 25 of those 183 are only for the ~$25 tier, which is to show "support" or to buy the digital magazine), when at first there was multiple thousands of seriously interested people (myself included).

 

[jooey]

I just dont understand who this is meant for

those who wear their love of retro games on their sleeve, and pantleg, and face, and chest

 

[Clemsontigers35]

Firstly, I think development of an independent console is a wonderful idea. I wish those guys the best of luck. The way they've chosen to execute their vision is sort of confusing. I'm not sure they know who their marketing to. From what I've seen, they want to be marketing to all console buyers. This is a mistake. Nobody is going to spend $300 for a system which doesn't do what a PS4 can do. The market has already proven this. Heck, Sony proved that the average console buyer is interested in new technology, no matter how flawed, back in 1995 (why the Saturn is a footnote in console history). The only people who will buy this are the sort of people who would buy a Neo*Geo AES, in other words, the tiniest fraction of hardcore gamers. And obviously, if your market is small, you are going to have to have high prices to make up for low customers. But those customers are going to want a justification for that. With what they've shown, I just don't see how that cost will be justified. If you want to buy retro console stuff for $300, why not get one with pedigree? Instead of a Retro, get a NeoGeo AES, a copy of Panzer Dragoon Saga, or round out your SNES library. Or if you want to play indie games, you could, you know, get a PC. That is the biggest hurdle for getting one of these systems.

 

[emb]

Just something I've noticed. I believe it was at 186 earlier today and now it's at 183. It happened a couple times yesterday as well. They'll get a few new contributions but they aren't able to offset the people dropping out. They've only had one new backer in the past 12 hours. I honestly don't see this reaching 100k.

IGG taking the money right away probably has a lot to do with the cancellations. Wasn't going to hit goal anyway, but I think it will make it much harder to keep people on board, on top of all the negative buzz.

I just dont understand who this is meant for

I'm almost exactly the target audience. I won't purchase anything digital. Patches are more annoying than helpful in my eyes. Would love to have a way to buy indie/retro games that are stuck with only Steam releases.

The poor planning, management, and most of all pricing make it not worth it though. Kinda disappointing to see it go down like this, but the writing was already on the wall.

 

[NeOak]

IGG taking the money right away probably has a lot to do with the cancellations. Wasn't going to hit goal anyway, but I think it will make it much harder to keep people on board, on top of all the negative buzz.

It is fixed funding, so they won't get anything if it isn't funded. Just like KS.

 

[Khaz]

Classic game (SNES/Gen/Etc) playing aside, which is looking foggy at the moment, the main appeal to this seems to be "Play new games by slapping cartridges into a console, just like old times!" (That and "It's fun for devs to design around limitations", and "They won't need patches," the latter of which is ridiculous.)

If I were a dev wanting to code for a limited hardware and play around its limitations, I would choose an already established console with a known userbase and well designed debugging kits. The NES, Master System, SNES, Megadrive, Dreamcast, Neo Geo, have all a very healthy scene spawning new games pushing the hardware to its limits, a community to support you and lots of tools that professional studios could only ever dream of back in the days. But I'm not a dev so maybe I'm overlooking things.

As for your other idea, you may want to look into the Retrode. It's not exactly what you are describing but it allows to plug a Megadrive or SNES (and others) cartridge into your PC and play it with an emulator. Or if you don't want to use a PC, the RetroN5 does the same thing with a more streamlined experience (although less accommodating to tinkering.)

 

[Kawika]

The niche of the niche of the niche, who the RVGS team just happened to shit all over with abysmal PR.

There is a reason this thing only has 183 backers now (and 25 of those 183 are only for the ~$25 tier, which is to show "support" or to buy the digital magazine), when at first there was multiple thousands of seriously interested people (myself included).

This machine had my support (more like intrigue) a few months ago. Then...it seemed like every time we got a bit of info it kept making me more and more wary about the project. Prior to the IGG campaign, I had no clue that they didn't have anything but the plastic mold and some 3D drawings. I really expected a working prototype.

To be honest, the only thing that remotely interests me at this point is Kevtris' cores. Guess this is working out in my favor but this whole project is a total mess. I hold no malice toward RVGS and if they are really seriously about making a modern console for carts I think they should try. Now that Kevtris is out that might be the better plan.

The longer this campaign goes on, the less likely a retool will happen regardless if they have a working prototype.

 

[goldenpp72]

You know, there is a guy who is making a scart switch and selling it for over 100 bucks, i'd bet money he will sell more of those the moment they go up for general consumption than the amount of backers this will get, that's how poisonous this product has become.

 

[Khaz]

You know, there is a guy who is making a scart switch and selling it for over 100 bucks, i'd bet money he will sell more of those the moment they go up for general consumption than the amount of backers this will get, that's how poisonous this product has become.

$160 + shipping. But it's like the Rolls Royce of Scart switches, the best you could want with all the options you can imagine. I'm sure the price would have been lower if it were mass-produced in 1994, but for a homemade niche product, it's not so bad. Still objectively expensive though

Spoiler

but I'm getting one anyway

.

 

[Azure Dream]

If I were a dev wanting to code for a limited hardware and play around its limitations, I would choose an already established console with a known userbase and well designed debugging kits. The NES, Master System, SNES, Megadrive, Dreamcast, Neo Geo, have all a very healthy scene spawning new games pushing the hardware to its limits, a community to support you and lots of tools that professional studios could only ever dream of back in the days. But I'm not a dev so maybe I'm overlooking things.

I think the idea is to have a modern publishing platform, but a "fixed" one. So it plays nice with Unity and such (at least that's what they said), but you can focus on optimization for one hardware spec. (Of course, no one would design for just this platform, so in reality it's one more platform to test and tweak for.)

I don't think this is necessarily an overwhelming desire of developers, especially ones that already do console work.

As for your other idea, you may want to look into the Retrode. It's not exactly what you are describing but it allows to plug a Megadrive or SNES (and others) cartridge into your PC and play it with an emulator. Or if you don't want to use a PC, the RetroN5 does the same thing with a more streamlined experience (although less accommodating to tinkering.)

The Retrode is pretty much what I was thinking, except with modernized connectors, and their own proprietary "cartridge" format that accommodates new games more easily. Primarily designed around collectors wanting physical cartridge editions of games. Which is a small market. But there is some tiny appeal of seeing a shelf of Genesis-like hard cases, each one being popped open to see a cartridge labeled "Shovel Knight", or "Bloodstained" or "Battle Chasers", your save sleeping on the cartridge itself (maybe auto-backed up by the launcher).

Trust me, I'm not huge on the idea. But the niche appeal is there. I just think building a whole console around it is going too far, at least in the way they're tackling it.

 

[Dreamwriter]

If I were a dev wanting to code for a limited hardware and play around its limitations, I would choose an already established console with a known userbase and well designed debugging kits. The NES, Master System, SNES, Megadrive, Dreamcast, Neo Geo, have all a very healthy scene spawning new games pushing the hardware to its limits, a community to support you and lots of tools that professional studios could only ever dream of back in the days. But I'm not a dev so maybe I'm overlooking things.

That was the main point of the FPGA in this device - someone could make a game for an established console like NES and then get Retro VGS cartridges made with their game with no additional work, to be able to sell it to more people than the few NES collectors.

 

[Mega]

^At what stage of this entire ordeal did that stop being the main point and transform into an impossible $4 million stretch goal?

Oh I agree, don't get me wrong. I was merely answering Khaz' question as far as what the point or draw of even including an FPGA would be if the console emulation features wouldn't be available.
It might have looked like I was defending the VGS there but I certainly wasn't. This thing is a trainwreck at this point, even with small-FPGA enhancements.

No worries, I didn't think you were sticking up for this botched system.

The guy selling the $160 scart switch is making something that a niche of gamers really want and there's a closed waiting list of customers. It's also not the most expensive one out there.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

I think the idea is to have a modern publishing platform, but a "fixed" one. So it plays nice with Unity and such (at least that's what they said), but you can focus on optimization for one hardware spec. (Of course, no one would design for just this platform, so in reality it's one more platform to test and tweak for.)

I don't think this is necessarily an overwhelming desire of developers, especially ones that already do console work.

Yeah, because you can already get all of that and more by making a Unity game for PS4. You can even publish a physical edition if you want.

 

[westman]

Wow. Are there stats collected somewhere, or just something you noticed. I was watching how mediocre day two was, kinda payed less attention afterward.

Anyone have bets on how long it takes before they go ahead and end the campaign?

You can see the daily stats here: http://crowdcharts.com/campaign/retro-vgs/daily

 

[Vipershark]

If I were a dev wanting to code for a limited hardware and play around its limitations, I would choose an already established console with a known userbase and well designed debugging kits. The NES, Master System, SNES, Megadrive, Dreamcast, Neo Geo, have all a very healthy scene spawning new games pushing the hardware to its limits, a community to support you and lots of tools that professional studios could only ever dream of back in the days.

This is exactly what the VGS was promising and exactly what I wanted, which is why them ditching it in favor of the ARM bothers me so much.

What was Mike smoking?!?!?!?

 

[s_mirage]

Hasn't even gotten to six digits yet, this is so embarrassing.

Worse, I don't think it's moved at all in 24 hours.

 

[Azure Dream]

Yeah, because you can already get all of that and more by making a Unity game for PS4. You can even publish a physical edition if you want.

Exactly. If it was exclusively a weird retro box you had to entirely design around (like a weird Super Genesis, maybe not even a 32X), a community exploring the quirks and features of the chipset and how to maximize them, as if it was an undiscovered 16-bit console, that might be one thing. But they want the ARM in there for modern games to port over easily, so there's not much water to that.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Worse, I don't think it's moved at all in 24 hours.

Someone else mentioned it has actually lost three donations today. I bet that keeps up as people realize it's not making the goal, but IGG takes money up front unlike Kick Starter. So, why have $300+ in limbo for 45 days.

 

[fernoca]

I would be interested in something like this and even have game in cartridges...and please, color booklets!

But wow, this has been a rollercoaster. Every time I checked the other thread and now this one, is like there's something new! XD

 

[spazchicken]

Why use the Atari Jaguar shape? Nobody had a Jaguar. I Also, wonder what incentives they offer indies to make games for this. Seems even more limiting than the Ouya with the cartridge and indie only approach.

 

[goldenpp72]

$160 + shipping. But it's like the Rolls Royce of Scart switches, the best you could want with all the options you can imagine. I'm sure the price would have been lower if it were mass-produced in 1994, but for a homemade niche product, it's not so bad. Still objectively expensive though

Spoiler

but I'm getting one anyway

.

I need 2, this hobby is expensive

 

[rbenchley]

Why use the Atari Jaguar shape? Nobody had a Jaguar. I Also, wonder what incentives they offer indies to make games for this. Seems even more limiting than the Ouya with the cartridge and indie only approach.

That's the only smart thing they've done. They were able to pick up the Jaguar molds for a bargain price (I seem to remember it was something like $6,000). After the Jaguar bombed, some company that makes dental equipment had purchased the molds. After they redesigned their equipment, the RetroVGS team was able to purchase the molds. From what I've read, they've actually already made back their money and then some by offering translucent cases to the Jaguar enthusiast community.

 

[Mikey Jr.]

This is going to end up being a colossal failure. Holy shit.

I would be shocked if they broke 300k by the end.