But that isn't 90s enough
Call it a "expansion pak"
But yeah, stick a fork in it...
But that isn't 90s enough
You are misreading the campaign - it doesn't say the stretch goal is to include an FPGA that can recreate classic system cores, it's to use a better one, capable of using more complicated cores.
RVGS indiegogo campaign said:At our minimum goal of $1,950,000, RETRO VGS comes to life and will play a wide variety of fun, high-quality games. After that, the more success our campaign receives, the more we put into RETRO VGS.
Unprecedented Flexibility
At $3,800,000—less than twice our minimum goal—we increase the size of our FPGA, making RETRO VGS the first video game system capable of recreating classic systems through reshaping its own hardware!
More Gates = More Variety + More Fun
Using a larger FPGA allows game developers to extend the ability of RETRO VGS in the same way that on-cartridge enhancement chips (ASICs) extended the ability of the Super Nintendo, but on a much larger scale and at much lower cost to game makers and buyers.
The larger FPGA will give RETRO VGS enough gates to duplicate the circuits of entire classic video game and computer systems.
I've backed a few electronic hardware projects on kickstarter before (Slice, Arduboy, GCW Zero). They all had working prototypes. Granted, this seems a tad more complicated hardware.
It's easier to back a project when the risks can be reduced as much as possible; and having a prototype at least proves your idea works.
I'd say shut it down and try again later. There have been failed projects which were eventually funded the second time around after the right changes had been made.
But the problem here is how the team is treating the community and those who have genuine concerns with the project. Maybe I'm wrong and people will forgive and forget if they shut this campaign down and relaunch it later with more realistic ambitions but I highly doubt it.
The upscaler is NOT going to cost more than this console... guaranteed
Emulation for retro consoles before the 3d era works perfectly... I have no clue what you mean by "not 100% accurate"
None of the above even matters, because you don't play actual retro software on it
The upscaler is NOT going to cost more than this console... guaranteed
Emulation for retro consoles before the 3d era works perfectly... I have no clue what you mean by "not 100% accurate"
None of the above even matters, because you don't play actual retro software on it
Overall this just costs more than its worth for all parties... Just so you can play a retro inspired indie on a cartridge????
A cycle-accurate simulator is a computer program that simulates a microarchitecture on a cycle-by-cycle basis. In contrast an instruction set simulator simulates an instruction set architecture usually faster but not cycle-accurate to a specific implementation of this architecture; they are often used when emulating older hardware, where time precisions are very important from legacy reasons. More often CAS is used when designing new microprocessors they can be tested, and benchmarked accurately (including running full operating system, or compilers) without actually building a physical chip, and easily change design many times to meet expected plan.
Cycle-accurate simulators must ensure that all operations are executed in the proper virtual (or real if it is possible) time branch prediction, cache misses, fetches, pipeline stalls, thread context switching, and many other subtle aspects of microprocessors.
Brand new XRGB Mini runs about 300$ USD. Same price as this. Broadcast monitors run 50-150$, though they can be found cheaper if you're willing to really hunt. If all you want to do is run your consoles on a modern display, you can do it for 10$ + the console/tv.Can't connect the original console to newer monitors without an expensive upscaler or other stuff.
Emulation? Not 100% accurate.
3rd one: Lol
FYI: Silicon degrades too, so eventually all the old consoles will die.
I don't see how him being wrong about some things makes you any more right?Please read what I replied to, and the other answers to the same person.
Brand new XRGB Mini runs about 300$ USD. Same price as this. Broadcast monitors run 50-150$, though they can be found cheaper if you're willing to really hunt. If all you want to do is run your consoles on a modern display, you can do it for 10$ + the console/tv.
And the last 'fyi' has to be a joke. This thing isn't exactly immortal either, so why does that matter? Literally all electronics eventually die. If that's a reason for you to avoid a console, what the fuck are you doing on this board?
*Sigh*I don't see how him being wrong about some things makes you any more right?
The ability to play your old games as well as code new ones on "native" hardware was always the main draw for the VGS, along with Mike's proposals about propositioning companies to rerelease and/or create sequels to old IP.
The ARM and ability to play not-actually-retro games with some cartridges is more of a tacked-on feature at best.
RETRO VGS The main focus of RETRO VGS isn't to play old games but these new retro games being made today, on cartridges. His product is just another way to emulate like dozens of products before it. And with the FPGA it won't compete in any way, shape or form with the countless other software emulated systems out there. His is a failed model from the start and it's a shame he couldn't combine his efforts with our product and make a real compelling product that would do something unlike any other system on the market.
Like · Reply · 58 minutes ago
Kevtris is now conducting a poll on AtariAge to gauge public support for an FPGA gaming system of his own design. Nothing confirmed, he's playing it safe and smart by just seeing if there's even enough support for an idea such as this.
Link: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/242970-fpga-based-videogame-system/
For those who just see his name in passing- this guy is quickly earning a name for himself in the retro gaming community. He made the NES HDMI kit which basically saved Analogue's ass just recently and he tells us he has many working FPGA emulation cores. Then he was jerked around by the RVGS team as you may have read here.
Just follow the link above for more info about his ideas right now.
THAT is the system we wanted and that makes sense today. I hope he sees that people would support his vision, especially because he has earned the respect people are giving him by showing tangible results from his hard work. Not by buying Atari tooling and e-begging. I'm just hoping the Retro POS doesn't poison the well if he tries crowdfunding.
Even his screen name was made for a console! Which would you rather buy? The Retro VGS or The Kevtris!
Nobody wants your controller (2 stars on Amazon) and nobody wants your pack-in game, it's a blatant ripoff of Super Frog for Amiga.
These guys have a ton of experience.
They haven't been hiding that, it's what they've been saying right from the very start. The guy looked at XBox Live and PSN and saw all these modern retro-style games, and thought how great it would be if they were all on cartridge like the old days, with near-instant ability to play and no hassles, as if it actually *was* a rediscovered game from the 90's. The FPGA wasn't for playing old games from the 80's and 90's, it was for modern developers who are writing new games for old systems. The ability to play old games using cartridge adapters was something he mentioned quite recently as an optional thing, after the backlash for the system price.Wow, confirmation straight from him that his priorities are in the completely wrong place. Look like I'm VERY out.
You've been reading and posting about this system all this time and you *still* don't know that the reason the controller got bad reviews on Wii U was its crappy wireless reception, and that the version for the Retro VGS is wired so won't have those issues? Or are you just trolling?Nobody wants your controller (2 stars on Amazon)
The FPGA wasn't for playing old games from the 80's and 90's, it was for modern developers who are writing new games for old systems.
The FPGA wasn't for playing old games from the 80's and 90's, it was for modern developers who are writing new games for old systems. The ability to play old games using cartridge adapters was something he mentioned quite recently as an optional thing, after the backlash for the system price.
Yeah lets not trash a game because it's inspired by another old game, or we will soon be trashing 99% of all the videogames ever created. Besides, since when being inspired by an existing game is a bad thing? I didn't read much outrage when Mighty No9 or Pillars of eternity were announced.
You and I want the exact opposite things from this system, and neither of us are getting it.I personally feel like the inclusion of the ARM CPU at all is pretty much idiotic. I understand the appeal of playing games you like on cartridges but a system dedicated to "retro styled" games is pretty dumb, to say the least. (Because if you remove the FPGA, that's all that's left.) I don't want some dumb tablet shoved into a box or Ouya 2 or underpowered PC specifically to play the games I already own on Steam, cartridges or not.
Especially considering that "retro-styled" is nothing but a buzzword and the games themselves follow no particular architecture requirements (Shovel Knight might look like an NES game but isn't possible on an NES, for example), a console dedicated to playing those games is, putting it lightly, stupid.
I feel like the people complaining that the FPGA should be removed in favor or the ARM are extremely misguided because the actual "magic" of this system comes from the FPGA.
The ability to play your old games as well as code new ones on "native" hardware was always the main draw for the VGS, along with Mike's proposals about propositioning companies to rerelease and/or create sequels to old IP.
The ARM and ability to play not-actually-retro games with some cartridges is more of a tacked-on feature at best.
On that note, the people saying Kevtris' system is the superior choice are correct. If anything, it should be the ARM that's the add-on, not the FPGA.
Seems the HW designer's ego won't let this happen, which is what I understood according to Kevtris' post.I'd like for them to mend their bridges with Kevtris
and bring him on board. Scrub the current campaign,
let Kevtris and crew redesign the Retro with a price
point between $150-$250 tops(which Kevtris said is
possible with his proposed system). Get a
prototype working and relaunch the campaign on
Kickstarter.
I'm a bit confused on how this detracts from my point, though.
The FPGA is there so you can write new "native" software for old consoles which can be played on this system or in theory also played on the original hardware through flash carts or repro flashing.
I personally have little to no desire to use this system specifically for playing my old games that I already own on new hardware (but the prospect of playing my old games with native HDMI certainly doesn't hurt!), my main draw is the ability to develop for old systems using modern tools and having an all-in-one devkit to do so. I personally don't mind the possibility of not having the original cartridge connectors so long as the VGS is able to do (through addons or otherwise) everything the original systems were, cycle-for-cycle.
Mike stated that this isn't the VGS' main purpose though, and that the primary focus of the system is to play games that are "retro" (which means nothing) which is something I have no desire for whatsoever.
I would have no problem with (and maybe even use!) the ARM half of the system if it was merely an add-on or at the very least a secondary feature that happened to be included but Mike confirmed above that he's doing the complete opposite of that.
kevtris, on 21 Sept 2015 - 5:15 PM, said:
I will reply to the Retro VGS comments here, because 1) I don't have FB, and 2) they will just delete my replies.
RETRO VGS We were going to contract with Kevin and license his cores at $10K/Core, his asking price. Plus we were going to help fund his development of the 16 bit cores. Then he throws US under the bus. He has a prototype board, we have the even more expensve part of the process in hand the tooling. We would have been happy to work with him, but instead, he wants to attempt to compete with our product with an expensive $200-$250 bare board that won't do half of what the RETRO VGS would do.
Like · Reply · 47 minutes ago · Edited
* This is only partially true. $10K was for the stuff like RCA Studio 2, and Channel F. I was looking for $50K or so for things like NES and 2600.
* I got blown off 2 weeks ago on our meeting to discuss cores, because the system was most likely not going to have an FPGA in it any more. I can quote what you told me on 9/8/15 if that helps:
We are going to hold off for now. Still debating whether or not the FPGA will make it in our system.
Once the IGG thing basically proved the FPGA was going to be a pie-in-the-sky add-on, I knew I had been made redundant. I figured at this point it was just going to be like a Retron 5 and bundle emulators and cart dumpers at the best.
* The $200-250 price I quoted is A COMPLETE SYSTEM and not the bare board. This is a board, case, and power supply. Pack-in games are not required (though I could throw in a homebrew NES title maybe). Controllers would probably be extra, but since I accept USB controllers, you can plug literally any HID and use it. This means controllers, keyboards, and mice. Obviously it'd be kinda hard to play a 2600 game with a mouse, but I'm more thinking for FPGA computer projects and not just games.
* You and you jag mold are like a mule with a spinning wheel. Damned if anyone knows how he got it, and damned if he knows how to use it. (sorry Simpsons). Fortunately, today making a plastic injection mold isn't so brutally expensive. My friend got a brand new NES cartridge shell mold made a few months ago. The process was fast, the parts are awesome and the cost was insanely cheap. It was cheap enough that I could float the cost without resorting to Kickstarter/IGG. For a Jag sized mold, the costs are a lot higher, but since my system will be quite small I don't have all that extra cost housing air and unicorns. My friend already got a crapload of cart cases made with the mold and is starting to sell them over on the nesdev forum. If you need boards/cart shells for your homebrew that's the place to go.
* So far, my board infinitely more than yours does. It's hard to divide by zero and come up with any other answer.
RETRO VGS When he actually does some homework on what it would take to "consumerize" his product and put his bare board into a console shell, add a controller and pack-in game, and incorporate the ARM and both the digital and analog output, go through the regulatory process, etc. he will find out he can't do it for any for any less than we can. I guarantee you all that!
Like · Reply · 46 minutes ago · Edited
* I have done my homework. I have over 100 products under my belt between my home stuff, freelance stuff, and work. Some of them involved a plastic injection molded enclosure. I have been through the entire certification process (for a medical device no less). I own a patent. I think I have a tiny tiny bit of knowledge when it comes down to how to design and see a product through to production and shipping.
* I can add an ARM CPU to my design. At this time I just don't WANT to. The ARM CPU doesn't add anything that I wish to have in my "vision" for the system. The good news is if I wanted an ARM based videogame system I can just MAKE one on the friggin' FPGA directly! Granted it won't run as fast as a dedicated "hard" CPU core would, but we're talking about games here and not the Android OS.
* You must've missed the part about my FPGA board and its plethora of outputs. I already have 100% finished working video in the following formats (today, right now. I can show them off)
1) HDMI at 1080p/60fps, 1080p/50fps, 720p/60fps, 720/,50fps, 480p/60fps, and 576p/50fps.
2) RGB at 31KHz (VGA rate) or any of the HDMI rates
3) RGB at 15KHz (NTSC or PAL rates)
4) Component at any of these rates
5) Composite in PAL and NTSC and "direct system output" which emulates the target system's video EXACTLY. both voltage levels and timing wise.
6) S-video in PAL and NTSC
All of these outputs are 100% digitally generated inside the FPGA for absolute maximum quality.
Audio's currently 16 bits, 48KHz. I can output anything else though like 192KHz/24 bit. Internally right now my audio is 18 bit stereo.
RETRO VGS The main focus of RETRO VGS isn't to play old games but these new retro games being made today, on cartridges. His product is just another way to emulate like dozens of products before it. And with the FPGA it won't compete in any way, shape or form with the countless other software emulated systems out there. His is a failed model from the start and it's a shame he couldn't combine his efforts with our product and make a real compelling product that would do something unlike any other system on the market.
Like · Reply · 58 minutes ago
* Interesting that you hated the word "emulate" when I was in discussions and you were using the term "simulate". The difference between my board and any other emulator is the time and effort I put in to achieve the maximum quality of the end result. Anyone can throw together a R Pi and make an emulator box. I'm selling higher quality outputs (video/audio), absolutely zero lag (even on HDMI), and higher accuracy. My FPGA 2600 has higher accuracy on a few things vs. Stella even. I also am going for breadth and width. I support the Supercharger Demo Unit. I don't see that elsewhere (granted, it's not that big of a deal but I am going for as much inclusiveness as possible). I support Atarivox- there's a friggin PIC18F core I wrote specifically to simulate this add-on. The supercharger demo unit took a new 6800 CPU core as well. So the 2600 has actually no less than three CPUs in it.
* So far your system hasn't been documented at all. So comparing what you want to do with anything else is impossible.
RETRO VGS And, he isn't the only game in town when it comes to FPGA core development.
Like · Reply · 48 minutes ago
Yep. I will just drive down to the Core Store and... oh wait. I'm pretty much the only game in town if you want finished cores with any kind of standard interface between them and all the testing and development work I put in on this.
I will give another ferinstance here for fun. If anyone is curious how much trouble I went to for Gameboy, here we go:
Unlike most other videogame systems, a gameboy's video is not "continuous". A CRT won't wait for pixels, but the LCD on the Gameboy does. This little detail caused huge headaches because each scanline renders for a different amount of time based on what's present on the scanline. The X scroll, Y scroll, window position, even sprites (position AND count) all interact together to change how long it takes. And games rely on this too. Some games will fail or show glitchy graphics if this isn't exactly emulated.
To crack this particularly tough nut, I had to resort to a brute-force approach. This involved taking a gameboy apart, and rebuilding it on perf board so that I could attach some equipment and monitor what exactly happens.
The first step was to make the doctored Gameboy:
Here's a close up of the wiring:
Next, it was hooked into the mothership (my logic analyzer) with a billion probe wires to every point on the GB chip:
Then I can use my logic analyzer (an HP 16700B) to trace out EXACTLY what the chip is doing in black and white when certain "interesting" things happen like the sprite DMA:
After all this mess, I piped the perfboard gameboy's LCD signals into some FPGA pins and made a quick and dirty CRT interface so I could play the GB games on my PVM:
Finally, after writing some test code that runs on both the GB and my FPGA and communicates through the link port, I had my FPGA GB video signals exactly matching the
real GB's video signals:
So after all this mess, I finished my GB core and got cycle accuracy. Now imagine doing this for all the systems I have added, and you get some small idea of the trouble I have gone through in my quest for accuracy.
A few more ferinstances:
* Because the Videobrain is so stupidly rare and expensive, I came across some of the custom ASICs at a surplus place, found the schematic for it and made my own damn Videobrain on perfboard! This was then hooked into the logic analyzer and extensively probed.
* Arcadia 2001's were expensive and rare too, so I found a schematic, bought the weird CPU and video chips cheap and built a perf version of that as well, and hooked it into the LA (logic analyzer)
* Atari 2600 and 7800 were a bit easier, I just had to solder .1" headers to the chips and plug the logic analyzer in.
* Intv was similar- just soldered .1" headers on and plugged it in.
* Supervision- had to make an extensive debug setup with a UART cart and lots of .1" headers for the logic analyzer and oscilloscope (during audio debug)
* Complete cycle by cycle investigation of the Odyssey^2's video chip using custom hardware to single step it (Actually single HALF step it- it uses both clock edges) to get absolute accuracy
There's more but this is a small sampling of the trouble I go through in my quest for accuracy. I doubt you will find anyone who has gone to these lengths to ensure accuracy and compatibility. Good luck in your search for cores of this caliber.
But why would any dev use this FPGA thing for their game when they have an ARM processor to play with? Why would they spend any amount of time and money for a processor that is the nichest of the niches? At least porting to an ARM device paves the way to porting to other ARM devices like the massively popular mobile devices. But FPGA? Why?
Kevtris made another detailed post, this time responding to some of Mike's accusations against him:
http://atariage.com/forums/topic/235430-how-has-this-not-been-posted-yet-retro-vgs/?p=3326949
So, Dreamwriter, do you still think it's a bad idea to show off your hard work even when it's a rat's nest of wiring? The RVGS crew has nothing to show us because they've worked on nothing.
I don't understand. Mike was saying the point of the system isn't to play old NES/whatever games, but to play new retro-style games. That includes new games written for old NES/whatever systems - do you really think a modern 8-bit game isn't a retro-style game? The ARM part is entirely optional for developers.
RETRO VGS The main focus of RETRO VGS isn't to play old games but these new retro games being made today, on cartridges. His product is just another way to emulate like dozens of products before it. And with the FPGA it won't compete in any way, shape or form with the countless other software emulated systems out there. His is a failed model from the start and it's a shame he couldn't combine his efforts with our product and make a real compelling product that would do something unlike any other system on the market.
Like · Reply · 58 minutes ago
I think certain patents have expired IIRC.That FPGA stuff sounds awfully cool, but what's the legality of duplicating old systems 1:1 like this?
That FPGA stuff sounds awfully cool, but what's the legality of duplicating old systems 1:1 like this?
I always thought there would be some licensing agreements in place with the original manufacturers. You know, similar to what Sega had/has with TecToy in Brazil.That FPGA stuff sounds awfully cool, but what's the legality of duplicating old systems 1:1 like this?
Well, one of the benefits of FPGA is that you are literally recreating the original hardware circuitry of the target platform. So it's going to be 1:1 cycle-accurate versus pretty much every software emulator on PC today, which aims more for speed and using that to make up for loss of accuracy. There are very few games that depend on the original hardware cycles to function, which is why some of them are unplayable on popular emulators.
Put it this way, you know how most Saturn emulators are....not very good? That's because they don't aim for cycle accuracy. Which would be VERY hard to do because there isn't a PC out there right now on the consumer market powerful enough to emulate Saturn hardware on terms of CAS. But if there was, that emulator would run every single Saturn game perfectly with zero problems whatsoever, just like the original hardware.
There's value in aiming for cycle-accurate simulation, especially as the original consoles become less and less common as time goes on.
Except I'm asking about why would any modern dev use an extra FPGA for their modern "retro" game when they have an ipad ARM to use already. I'm well aware of the use of an FPGA in reproduction of old hardware.
Unless I'm misinterpreting something here, when Mike talks about "new retro", he's specifically talking about Modern games, not Classic ones. While it's pretty obvious that him saying "the main focus ... isn't to play 'old' games" clearly refers to Original games, his bashing of Kevtris' system (and also the FPGA) as a "failed model" leads me to believe that he's talking about Classic games as well.
Just like every console in history, there is a learning curve for devs. They will learn how to exploit the FPGA/ARM combo and make some incredible games throughout the life of RVGS. Think of this FPGA/ARM combo as a way for devs to create their own custom effects, like the Super FX chip on the SNES and expansion pack on the N64. It's like that but with infinitely more built in capability.
Please don't hold us to standards that have never applied to a fledgling console.
- Mike
Any dev using the combo FPGA/ARM will restrain themselves to a single, very niche, platform. No one wants that.
the more I think about this the more brain-meltingly stupid it becomes.