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Does too much fanservice in games bother you?
- Thread starter Doosi
- Start date
I know you're trying to keep the peace, but at a certain point, I personally do not have respect for someone who spins pandering, misogynistic content into freedom of artistic merit or whatever the hell. If limiting "artistic expression" helps eliminate characters like Quiet (only because she was mentioned before) then limit the shit out it. And the hand waving of "No you don't get it, having the boobs hang out like that makes sense guys!" is just as bad. No respect for that.
Isn't she...?
Cornbread78
Member
I changed the sentence to protect the innoscent, but it was a joke regardless. Some of the earlier comments in here are just painfull though.
Okay, as someone who's actually been there as a dancer, I have to call this out. No, Rise does not look like a dancer. Dancers generally wear outfits that are well suited to dancing. Leotards, bodysuits, tights, loose tops and pants that won't fall down or rip, etc. They generally do not have their outfits in ways that would leave to wardrobe failure or constant panty shots.
Rise looks like an idol. Her outfit is picked for more appearance than accessibility. And in the western world, midriffs and exposed bras are generally considered very sexual. Even among the older students in performances and stuff that I saw, you didn't see outfits like that.
I don't really have a problem with Rise's sexuality myself. She's always been the sexual and happy go lucky type, even long before all the spinoffs. Heck, she's posing in a bikini in the opening to Persona 4. >_>
But I definitely do disagree with wyrdwad's that she is not sexual.
Yeah but people in here arguing over whether she is sexual or not like that's a negative
Makes me sad
Green Mamba
Member
I'm just saying that if someone doesn't recognize Teddie and what he represents I doubt they're exactly in the target audience for a Persona 4 idol dancing game.
autoduelist
Member
It's not yours to control, though. That's like someone saying they don't want 'porn' to pollute books, ignoring the fact that plenty of people read books in large part to get turned on [50 Shades, romance novels, etc] or film [sex scenes in films] or even tv shows [many, like How to Get Away with Murder, have at least 2 sex scenes per hour nowadays].
It's not 'pollution', it's part of the medium, it's part of human nature. And those hit books, hit shows, and hit films do not care if you have an issue with them.
Don't get me wrong - I desperately wish that drpgs were still 'western' -- I prefer medieval Wizardry to anime, I prefer anything over teen melodrama. I'd rather be equipping Mythril Plate instead of School Jacket. I'd rather be killing Beholders than listening to talking cats. But I also recognize that at least I'm getting the games I want to play, and had Japan not picked up and re-popularized drpgs I probably would have far fewer to play. I'm not calling for the removal of high school from all rpgs, even though I think the world would be a better place without them.
But that doesn't mean there is anything inherently wrong with getting, or wanting to get, turned on. And just as you say -- it's the medium you 'consume'. Do you not get that some people want to be turned on by the medium they 'consume'? That they might find that preferable to kicking it over to the internet? That they too, know "where to find it", and for them that means an interactive medium like gaming?
It's not 'pollution'. It's the recognition that gaming is an artistic medium, and as with any medium that allows humans to 'converse' with one another through the creative process, we're going to get a bit of everything, and that includes scantily clad buxom lasses, sweaty muscular adonis', and everything in between and over to the side. Plus drama, intrigue, betrayal, murder, adultery, demons, torture and everything else that our sick twisted minds can shove into the stories we tell each other.
Worrying about what turns others on is a waste of time. Arguing that something should be sterilized because it doesn't happen to hit your kink button in the right place is even worse -- it's ridiculously egotistical to assume everything out there should be made not to offend you, let alone tailor made to your liking.
The future is here: Press X to porn.
NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom
Banned
Oh sure, but if someone sees a cartoon bear they might just figure it's something for kids, all I mean is wrong impression. Not that it's gonna lose customers.
If you're going to say that, though, then please explain why. I'm explaining every point I'm making in great detail, and would appreciate the same respect in the responses I receive.
I suppose that's fair enough. I do see a general disconnect, however, between the intended audience for idol singers and the fringe audience, as much of Japanese otaku culture and economy is based on that very disconnect. Hentai doujinshi, for example, is sold in stores while the IP owners look the other way, because they know they'll make extra money from the additional fringe exposure created by it. That doesn't make Pokemon a sexualized show, however -- it just means that people will sink to literally any depths for money, including openly allowing and supporting the sexualization of Pokemon characters.
Idol singers are somewhat more complicit in this, I suppose, in that they allow photographers to get pictures of them in swimsuits with full knowledge of how they'll be used -- but that's true of Justin Bieber and One Direction as well (sexy calendars have always been a thing). That doesn't make sexy posing a main focus of their careers, nor does it make sexy posing a main focus of the majority of idol singers' careers (and indeed, there are countless idol singers who refuse to be a part of such things altogether).
So as far as I'm concerned, that's just the inevitable cash-grab that accompanies fame. It's not inherently a part of who an idol singer is or what he/she represents.
-Tom
KirbYuuYuu
Member
Okay, as someone who's actually been there as a dancer, I have to call this out. No, Rise does not look like a dancer. Dancers generally wear outfits that are well suited to dancing. Leotards, bodysuits, tights, loose tops and pants that won't fall down or rip, etc. They generally do not have their outfits in ways that would leave to wardrobe failure or constant panty shots.
Rise looks like an idol. Her outfit is picked for more appearance than accessibility. And in the western world, midriffs and exposed bras are generally considered very sexual. Even among the older students in performances and stuff that I saw, you didn't see outfits like that.
I don't really have a problem with Rise's sexuality myself. She's always been the sexual and happy go lucky type, even long before all the spinoffs. Heck, she's posing in a bikini in the opening to Persona 4. >_>
But I definitely do disagree with wyrdwad's that she is not sexual.
Is this solely restricted to western media though?
Is it ridiculously egoistical for women to want to be portrayed evenly without tits and ass hanging out all over the place?
While I'm a little bit familiar with the Japanese idol scene and Japanese customs, I don't actually know for sure. Hence why I didn't say and merely only stated it from a western perspective. It would be interesting to have a third opinion on this from someone who has actually lived in Japan an extensive amount of time and/or familiar with idols.
I don't agree with that at all
Fans of the franchise will see Teddie (duh) and newcomers will see a strange cartoon-like bear...Teddie.
OK. If that's your take on this, then I suppose any discussion I might have had with you is over. If you will not respect my opinion on this matter, then I cannot respect yours either.
I regret that our discussion has to end this way, however, as there is always plenty of room to disagree with someone respectfully.
Okay, as someone who's actually been there as a dancer, I have to call this out. No, Rise does not look like a dancer. Dancers generally wear outfits that are well suited to dancing. Leotards, bodysuits, tights, loose tops and pants that won't fall down or rip, etc. They generally do not have their outfits in ways that would leave to wardrobe failure or constant panty shots.
Rise looks like an idol. Her outfit is picked for more appearance than accessibility. And in the western world, midriffs and exposed bras are generally considered very sexual. Even among the older students in performances and stuff that I saw, you didn't see outfits like that.
I should have been a bit clearer: her outfit is that of an IDOL dancer, specifically. Not a Western dancer.
-Tom
KirbYuuYuu
Member
Fair enough.
I don't really have experience in terms of real world idols, even if low cut skirts is commonly depicted.
The Albatross
Member
I think Fanservice means something that I don't really understand. I always thought fan service meant insider call backs to previous games and stuff, but the context it's used here usually means gratuitious creepy sexuality for no reason in a game.
In that case, I love fan service that is a call back to a previous game or series. I hate fan service that puts unneeded sexuality into a game and just turns me off to it.
In that case, I love fan service that is a call back to a previous game or series. I hate fan service that puts unneeded sexuality into a game and just turns me off to it.
kuroneko0509
Member
And now we're hitting the slope of thinking for what women want. You can find tons of cosplay of these specific Rise outfit actually, and these are ladies that are willingly wearing it and happily mind you. What does that say about them?
I don't respect your viewpoint, no, because I personally feel it marginalizes a large group of people. I do respect how you've conducted your argument though. Pretty level headed. And that's that I suppose. God speed.
Demoskinos
Member
I think gaming is big enough that both can exist. The problem was never the fanservice the problem was the lack of diversity in design. And we are starting to see more of that now.
The ladies in DOA are just as a valid design choice as any of the ladies that you posted.
You think a real-life woman deciding to put on a costume she enjoys is the same as Kojima creating Quiet? Really?
...really?
Seven4sses
Member
I like it, but I tend to stop once they make the younger crowd look sexualized (ie. lolli crap) . Someone brought up the Vita earlier and as much as I love the system, that sort of thing is pretty rampant on the system. The one JRPG I bought was Hyperdimension Neptunia Re:Birth and that had some okay fanservice, but even I felt weird playing the game. The only redeeming factor was the dialogue.
Reminds me of someone.
Every time I see Zarya it pisses me off that they made her hair pink, it looks so bad.
They should have just done this instead.
Reminds me of someone.
kuroneko0509
Member
No actually I thought you were attacking Rises outfit, while Quiet is something else altogether. That said Stephanie Joosten actually liked what she did and the character too.
NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom
Banned
While being chaste can be a virtue I don't necessarily think advertised/enforced chasteness is there for the sake of wota's personal love the virtue of chasteness actually the opposite it's there as a sexual enticement, fetishized virginity. I mean maybe I'm going off the reservation or bringing up things you weren't talking about, but that's how I feel about people who are obsessed with "chasteness" in general.
Yet part of being in a boy band is being a sex symbol to young girls, that's definitely part of it. It's not the main focus, nor do I think it's the main focus of idol groups either, but to claim COMPLETE NON-SEXUALIZATION is overboard. Further I don't think the ratio of Pokemon Fans to Pokemon Hentai Doujinshi owners is anywhere close to the ratio of Idol Fans to Idol Photobook owners.
Sure, I get what you're saying but it's still part of the culture. I think Moga is a good example, she never really does sexualized stuff as part of Dempa Gumi, I don't even know if she does gravure shoots anymore. It's separate from the group and people like the group for the music. Like I said I don't know much about idols, but I just don't think "nothing sexual" is the right way to describe it.
formasymphonic
Member
It does mean that. But it's also come to have this other meaning due to its increasing prevalence in games/anime/ other media etc.
Ohmygoditsjrod
Banned
Does the woman Quiet was modeled after loving the character change anything?
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Author intent aside, you can absolutely argue for the elimination of characters like Quiet if you feel her existence does not jive with the tone of the game. Arguing for the elimination of characters like her EVERYWHERE kind of makes you a bit selfish and hoping everything appeals to you.
If you're arguing that we need more variety in female depictions, then I absolutely agree with you, but calling for someone to not make what they want is absolutely limiting artistic expression, and that is a terrible thing in a free society.
Edit: I also have take issue with calling Quiet's existence misgonystic. At the absolute worst, I'd say exploitative.
I mean, as I told KirbYuuYuu, I'm not too familiar on the subject of idol singers and Japanese culture around them. I blame Morning Musume, because I generally dislike their music. But like a quick google search of various idol groups like AKB48 and Momoiro Clover Z shows outfits that are, for the most part, more modest than what Rise is wearing there. There are a few bikini shots in there (which is understandable seeing as AKB48 has members in their early and mid 20s too), but on the whole most outfits look like this. Not bras sticking out being held on by barely any clothing and a very short miniskirt being held up by suspenders. :\
Not really.
There is a lot of different between characters like Bayonetta and a character like Quiet.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Or, you have women posting here, saying what they think and expressing what they want, but apparently that doesn't count...
It reminds me of the argument that someone pointing out that Rise's outfit is sexualized is the equivalent of "victim shaming her". Like she was a real person or something.
NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom
Banned
Well I mean part of the reason the outfit doesn't look practical is because it doesn't have to be practical because it doesn't have to exist. I think a lot of the outfit probably has to do with it being stylized anime stuff, so it ended up sexualized for visual interest or sexualization was chosen as the way to provide visual interest, however you want to think of it. I disagree with Tom in that I think it's sexualized but I don't think it's wildly out of line with some idol stuff either. Zip up the top and you have something I don't think would be uncommon to see in a performance.
edit: Let me say it's kind of funny that we're having this amount of discussion over Rise's outfit which is not really the level of fan service anyone is even talking about.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
I like it, but I tend to stop once they make the younger crowd look sexualized (ie. lolli crap) . Someone brought up the Vita earlier and as much as I love the system, that sort of thing is pretty rampant on the system. The one JRPG I bought was Hyperdimension Neptunia Re:Birth and that had some okay fanservice, but even I felt weird playing the game. The only redeeming factor was the dialogue.
Reminds me of someone.
This is essentially what happens if your product is a niche.
Larger audiences do not get anything for them because they do not exist as a constant for that platform to balance it out
TheJRPGamer
Neo Member
By far one of the worst posts in this thread, and I respectfully disagree with you. If you object to fanservice so much, then you are free to find alternatives. It's really that simple.
Just because you don't like fanservice does not mean that it does not have the right to exist. Going further, the market has long decided that fanservice has a place.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
So I guess the camera getting a bit personal with Bayonetta's private parts is fine too, then? Not like she is a real person or something with the right to personal space or self-determination.
Yeah see, that second outfit there looks more like the kind of outfit you would have seen in our dance performances that me and my sister did when we were growing up. Maybe not the midriff, but the rest of the outfit is more cute than anything.
Pretty much agree with you on the rest tho.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Absolutely. Anything that happens to a fictional character is fine.
igordennis
Member
I agree.
Not with the notion of eliminating all kinds of fanservice that may be implied here though. But the kind of fanservice in otherwise serious games that have no reason to do some of that silly shit. These are the majority of games though, very few games are like Senran Kagura.
decoyplatypus
Member
I see others have already made this point, but I'll jump in anyway to say that I always understood fanservice to refer to content (sexually suggestive or otherwise) designed to excite fans of a work without regard for the integrity of that work. For example, a gratuitous shower scene would be fanservice not because audiences had previously expressed a desire to see the showering character naked but because they expressed that desire and the scene was gratuitous. Similarly, wildly implausible cameo appearances or nonsensical call-back dialogue by popular characters would be fanservice (the Marvel movies tend to be heavy on non-sexual fanservice, though they have the beefcake kind too). So, by my understanding (which I am going to have to re-evaluate in light of this thread), fanservice is almost by definition something that bothers me. It's a case of prioritizing what the audience wants over what it needs.
Isn't Awakening the way it was because it was pretty much do or die for the Fire Emblem series? Assuming that is the case, the current trajectory that alienates historical fans seems to be a better option for the series' continued survival than relying on the historical fans that led to Fire Emblem nearly being killed off. In that case, the current trajectory Fire Emblem is on exists because it sells and sells better than the previous trajectory. In this case, someone complaining about Fire Emblem having changed is basically yelling into the void when changing is what allows Fire Emblem to continue as a franchise.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Yeah, that's another thing. IS put their all into Awakening because it absolutely could have been the last entry.
So with that in mind, the choices becomes "Fire Emblem with ignorable fan-service" or "no Fire Emblem at all". The latter is almost always a BS and selfish argument that gets used in console exclusive talk (Bayonetta 2 anybody). Non-existence will never be preferable to existence if there's a fanbase at all.
Green Mamba
Member
I think there's a difference between Awakening's beach scene DLC and full blown grody face touching in Fates. That's like taking a leap down a dark, dark hole.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
It's more than the beach scene though. Awakening places far more importance on support convos than the rest of the series, and some of the interactions are straight up pandery waifu territory. Also, Nowi.
But yeah, face touching is going deeper. I still wouldn't say it's entered Vita territory based on what I've seen though. It's pretty much Pokemon Amie with humans, not Criminal Girls.
Seven4sses
Member
I guess I need to find something that isn't revolving around young girls in that case. I would have kept playing since the combat was decent. It was just everything else and the whole "videogame land" theme that just soured it for me.
decoyplatypus
Member
I think you could phrase this in a way that doesn't imply that we older fans were somehow responsible for FE's weakened state. Awakening's immediate predecessors were a widely-disliked remake of the first game and a Japan-only remake of the second-half of Mystery of the Emblem. Historical fans did not ask for those. Nor did many ask for the removal of tactical complexity and addition of class-change mechanics. Nintendo had a lot of levers it could have pulled aside from otaku-pandering. We'll never know how well they might have worked.
To be fair, I don't like additions like face touching in Fates or Nowi in Awakening either, but I, at least, understand the reason why they were added and am glad face touching didn't end up even worse like in... certain Vita games I won't even mention.
Wasn't Fire Emblem still selling less and less even prior to the remakes of the first & third games? It could be those games were made to try to appeal to a declining fanbase by having a game that starred the very popular Marth in it again. Even Awakening takes place in the same world as the first and third Fire Emblem games and has someone posing as Marth in an essential storyline role... it's only 1000 years after those games.
I'm sick of fanservice. It's only there to give horny teenagers something to look at, which completely breaks my immersion. I'm also worried because I feel it has become more and more mainstream in Japanese media. You can hardly find anime without some kind of panty shot in it anymore. Anime fans like me basically have no choice but to put up with it these days.
It's a shame it has also been creeping into games. Games already have a long history of sexualized characters, but now they get the special brand of modern Japanese fanservice on top of that. Fire Emblem and Persona got more and more anime-stylized in recent entries, but why did they have to adopt the fanservice too? Ugh.
Well, at least Persona 5 looks normal. Dancing All Night and Illusory FE are clearly pandering though.
It's a shame it has also been creeping into games. Games already have a long history of sexualized characters, but now they get the special brand of modern Japanese fanservice on top of that. Fire Emblem and Persona got more and more anime-stylized in recent entries, but why did they have to adopt the fanservice too? Ugh.
Well, at least Persona 5 looks normal. Dancing All Night and Illusory FE are clearly pandering though.
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Mismanagement could absolutely be a factor, but the weakening sales happened over many entries, culminating in a pretty massive drop when Shadow Dragon released. It was at a point where they didn't even know if the series was viable in the west anymore, so they decided to add in a bit of pandering for the audience they thought were more likely to keep the series alive.