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[GlamFM]

Please outlet, send me 2 candidates for me: 1 male and 1 female. We gonna randomly select one to represent your outlet. thank you.

So GiantBomb can not be in the jury?

Isn´t that kind of sexist in a weird twisted way, too?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

If you had the choice, would you rather ride with the best pilot for the job, or someone who isn't?

We both know what you would choose.

I mean GoTY awards are a matter of live and death after all.

Please outlet, send me 2 candidates for me: 1 male and 1 female. We gonna randomly select one to represent your outlet. thank you.

Randomly could end up with the same result so not sure that'd be the smartest way either.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I find this really hard to believe. For the record I have nothing against women being on the panel. Unless you're gonna including super casual games like cell phone games (Candy Crush) that my 10 year old nieces play that number has to be way off.

Quoting this post in case people need an example of why we need more diversity in the industry at large.

 

[Farsi]

I mean GoTY awards are a matter of live and death after all.

Whoa buddy, it's just video games. Life has more meaning than just video game award shows. Slow your horses.

 

[Amused]

How would you suggest that the jury be selected?

It can be done in a lot of ways. The goal should be to build a team best suited for the task - evaluating an art product. That means you want good, smart people with a varied background - offering a broad perspective on what were the best games of last year.

Set down an independent committee that nominates the judges with such a goal in mind and you get a great jury - one that will end up strengthening the product. Or do something else.

It doesn't have to be 50/50 m/f of course, but it sure as hell shouldn't be 94/6. So don't go for the method that give you the ridiculous outcome of 94/6.

 

[GlamFM]

Whoa buddy, it's just video games. Life has more meaning than just video game award shows. Slow your horses.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

If you had the choice, would you rather ride with the best pilot for the job, or someone who isn't?

We both know what you would choose.

These terms just don't really mean anything. "The best" is irrelevant if the top 25% do their job just fine every time.

Sure, if you're getting one of a kind facial reconstruction surgery, you want to get the best surgeon in the country. You're getting a routine appendectomy though? You just need someone who knows what they're doing.

 

[Jotaka]

So GiantBomb can not be in the jury?

Isn´t that kind of sexist in a weird twisted way, too?

What is the big deal to left out giantbomb? There are dozen of other sites that can replace them.

 

[GlamFM]

What is the big deal to left out giantbomb? There are dozen of other sites that can replace them.

The big deal is the reason you would exclude them for....

Just think about it.

 

[MisterR]

I get the distinct impression a lot of the people saying this is no big deal or that they should just pick the 'most qualified' regardless of gender/race (whatever 'most qualified' is supposed to mean for gaming awards) haven't worked in the real world very long or at all.

In the real world, every company and government espouses the view that they are a meritocracy, and that the best and hardest working will move up the ladder.

In the real world, every company and government is not really a meritocracy, and who you know (and often how white and male you are) matters far more than any of those things.

Saying 'Well if they had picked 32 women who were all qualified it'd be fine!' is disingenuous, for the simple reason that there's a zero percent chance of that happening, while an all white male panel almost happened.

I say this all as a white male who has certainly benefited from his race/gender in many subtle ways and volunteers with girl scouts and supports all his wife's Society of Women Engineers activities in part due to how disgusted I've been at how women get treated in everyday, casual ways in work environments. This sort of nonsense is a huge problem, and you can't just toss up your hands and go 'whatever' when it happens over and over again and expect it to just work itself out in the end.

This is very interesting. I work in State Government, in a large agency. In this office, we have a commissioner and deputy commissioner who are both women. Below them we have six branch managers and five of them are women. At the supervisor level, it's about 50/50. I hope this is a sign that things are getting somewhat better in this regard.

 

[Amused]

So you nominate biogamergirl and leave GiantBomb out - correct?

Don't make a fool of yourself, my arguments aren't very hard to grasp. I won't force you to agree, but leave out the bullshit please.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

She the only one that works on content. There may be more working in other positions

Funnily just today Elyse Willems announced she's resigning from GT.

 

[Zia]

So... where are all of these notable female writers to have appeared from? There are, like, seven, with many outlets employing zero.

Simply the wrong reaction to a systemic issue.

 

[Metal B]

That´s nominating someone just for the sake of it.

And that´s the wrong approach.

Same qualification should be the basis for all discussion and for all decisions.

When I sit in a plane I want the pilot to be the best one for the job - not someone who fitted whatever profile.

Maybe all this discussion is just a little bit premature.

Just from my personal experience of going to gamescom for years I can tell that female "hardcore" gamers are on the rise big time.

Soon that will be reflected (more) in games media - and soon after that in a jury I´m sure.

What are the awards about? Opinions and perception.
This isn't a award for technical skills. They don't nominate "The best Programmer", "The best KI-Designer" or "The best Engine". Those are topics, where you want experts. But those are also themes, where you don't want mainly journalist and instead actual technical experts. But even then you want some diversity to prevent incest, sexisms, racism and favouritism.

The Game Awards are mainly on a subjective level. So you don't need those kind of "Experts". All they need is a fundamental knowledge of the industry (what isn't hard), be intelligent enough to create an clear and well thought out opinion (which is the art of being a good journalist) and time to explore as many candidates as possible (which means give them money for them to have time for this.). Technically creating a diverse jury to have a width pool of opinions shouldn't be hard and only helps the award to get a better reputation of a bigger audience.

But let's be real here! The Game Awards is a circle jerking from 20 to 40 year old white males for 20 to 40 year old white males to celebrate there opinion, which everybody already build in advance. There will be no surprises, unless they want a twist for having a twist, there will be no challenging opinions, the companies will have there hand in everything and the awards are as value, as the price of metal they used to build the trophy.

 

[GlamFM]

Don't make a fool of yourself, my arguments aren't very hard to grasp. I won't force you to agree, but leave out the bullshit please.

I´m not though. By excluding publications for the lack of women in your suggested process you literally only change the direction of the same problem.

That´s the very opposite of gender equality.

 

[Amused]

I not though. By excluding publications for the lack of women in you´re suggested process you literally only change the direction of the same problem.

That´s the very opposite of gender equality.

You are, as I have never suggested any such thing. Like I said, it's not very hard to grasp.

 

[Lime]

So... where are all of these notable female writers to have appeared from? There are, like, seven, with many outlets employing zero.

Simply the wrong reaction to a systemic issue.

1. Taken a more active stance when recruiting jurors
2. Added other outlets that employ or have focus on these issues
3. Consult other people who know what they are doing to fix the problem
4. Plenty of women and non-white or non-straight people they could have gotten in contact with. Much more than "seven"

Just because it's systemic and non-intentional doesn't excuse apathy or sitting on their hands.

 

[GlamFM]

You are, as I have never suggested any such thing. It's not very hard to grasp.

Sorry, I confused you with this post:

Please outlet, send me 2 candidates for me: 1 male and 1 female. We gonna randomly select one to represent your outlet. thank you.

 

[Amused]

Sorry, I confused you with this post:

No worries.

 

[LewieP]

So GiantBomb can not be in the jury?

Isn´t that kind of sexist in a weird twisted way, too?

No it is not sexist.

Giant Bomb could submit one of their male staff, and a perhaps a capable woman freelancer who is not employed by Giant Bomb. Why restrict it to full time staff of the selected publications? Expand the pool to improve the selection process.

But fundamentally I think poking holes in strategies to improve diversity, rather than attempting to consider alternative solutions, is the exact kind of thinking that resulted in the selection we got.

 

[Teletraan1]

I haven't read the thread but what is the overall ratio of Men:Women in the Vidya game Journalist field. I wouldn't doubt if it was close to the same ratio and unfortunately there probably aren't a lot of sites who have women who are higher in the pecking order of who gets picked to represent the site and bathe in the free swag or whatever is involved in picking some rote AAA games as award winners. That is just the reality of the situation, I don't think there is some malice here.

 

[Tecnniqe]

I don't know how you possibly got all of that out of my post.

My apology, it came off as a tad weird, but is that not what you in principle said?
That the award show should ask outlets for X male and females?

 

[ZanDatsu]

No it is not sexist.

Giant Bomb could submit one of their male staff, and a perhaps a capable woman freelancer who is not employed by Giant Bomb. Why restrict it to full time staff of the selected publications? Expand the pool to improve the selection process.

But fundamentally I think poking holes in strategies to improve diversity, rather than attempting to consider alternative solutions, is the exact kind of thinking that resulted in the selection we got.

Giant Bomb don't use freelancers.

Is the blonde girl from IGN one of the 2? I like her.

 

[Alias03]

Quoting this post in case people need an example of why we need more diversity in the industry at large.

Would you consider someone who plays Candy Crush, male or female, and only games like Candy Crush (mainly cell phone games/apps) a gamer?

 

[TBiddy]

It can be done in a lot of ways. The goal should be to build a team best suited for the task - evaluating an art product. That means you want good, smart people with a varied background - offering a broad perspective on what were the best games of last year.

Set down an independent committee that nominates the judges with such a goal in mind and you get a great jury - one that will end up strengthening the product. Or do something else.

It doesn't have to be 50/50 m/f of course, but it sure as hell shouldn't be 94/6. So don't go for the method that give you the ridiculous outcome of 94/6.

If you start to handpick jury-members, your results will also be skewed. I'm all for equality for genders and minorities, but as I've written earlier, I don't think "forcing" it like that, has anything to do with equality.

Sure, there could be more women in the jury. But if you were a woman, how would you feel, if you knew the only reason you got a seat in the jury was because of your gender, not because of your qualites?

I didn't specify "Giant Bomb Freelancer", just "Freelancer".

So GiantBomb should hire a freelancer to go on their behalf in order to diversify the jury? That's seems a bit... odd.

 

[LewieP]

Giant Bomb don't use freelancers.

Is the blonde girl from IGN one of the 2? I like her.

I didn't specify "Giant Bomb Freelancer", just "Freelancer".

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

If you start to handpick jury-members, your results will also be skewed. I'm all for equality for genders and minorities, but as I've written earlier, I don't think "forcing" it like that, has anything to do with equality.

Sure, there could be more women in the jury. But if you were a woman, how would you feel, if you knew the only reason you got a seat in the jury was because of your gender, not because of your qualites?

I would feel like I was picked because I am a women and honored to be apart of a panel of judges because I'm qualified and was not looked over because someone took the time to consider me.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Would you consider someone who plays Candy Crush, male or female, and only games like Candy Crush (mainly cell phone games/apps) a gamer?

would you consider someone who only plays tetris and games like Tetris a gamer?

 

[TBiddy]

I would feel like I was picked because I am a women and honored to be apart of a panel of judges because I'm qualified and was not looked over because someone took the time to consider me.

But if you were picked, based on your gender, wouldn't that be the exact opposite of being picked because of your qualifications?

 

[LewieP]

So GiantBomb should hire a freelancer to go on their behalf in order to diversify the jury? That's seems a bit... odd.

If Giant Bomb are to be trusted to judge for the awards, why could they not be trusted to recommend an individual who they are familiar with but who does not work for them?

But fundamentally I think poking holes in strategies to improve diversity, rather than attempting to consider alternative solutions, is the exact kind of thinking that resulted in the selection we got.

 

[MrS]

I didn't specify "Giant Bomb Freelancer", just "Freelancer".

Why would they do that?

 

[Aurumaethera]

NeoGAF is far more split over this issue than I anticipated. Disappointed to see so many regressive voices.

Having 31 male judges is indicative of institutional sexism. Big name awards shows like TGA need to include more women to help inspire more women to engage with the industry, for the sake of not just equality, but the quality and depth of all gaming.

 

[Steejee]

This is very interesting. I work in State Government, in a large agency. In this office, we have a commissioner and deputy commissioner who are both women. Below them we have six branch managers and five of them are women. At the supervisor level, it's about 50/50. I hope this is a sign that things are getting somewhat better in this regard.

That's good to hear. There are places where things have gotten better, but sadly they still seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

While I did put Government in my comment, Government seems to do better with diversity than companies (especially in the software field) in part because at least in the US governments tend to always have one hell of a paper trail when it comes to hiring. There's still a lot of cronyism (I live in Massachusetts and we're on the tail end of a big hiring patronage scandal), but on whole diversity is one place where Government tends to do better than the Private sector.

 

[Amused]

If you start to handpick jury-members, your results will also be skewed. I'm all for equality for genders and minorities, but as I've written earlier, I don't think "forcing" it like that, has anything to do with equality.

Sure, there could be more women in the jury. But if you were a woman, how would you feel, if you knew the only reason you got a seat in the jury was because of your gender, not because of your qualites?

They are hand picked. By the outlets. And we all know the results of that. Why not let someone else do it (in independent committee is an example) to secure a better jury? Shouldn't that be the main goal? Where is this extreme loyalty to the process of choice even coming from?

Not going in blind would enable you to secure a more diverse team, and in this instance that would mean a stronger team.

And why would they be there because they are female? They should be there because they are qualified. Or are you telling me it would be impossible to find, say, 10 qualifies females? To evaluate video games?

 

[ZanDatsu]

I didn't specify "Giant Bomb Freelancer", just "Freelancer".

Sorry, I misunderstood then. I know Mary Kish sometimes does stuff with the guys, and she's great, but she works for GameSpot. Maybe that Gina girl they had on the GBeast podcast... Not sure if she's freelance.

 

[LewieP]

Why would they do that?

To avoid having an awards ceremony that is overwhelmingly judged by white men.

 

[Jotaka]

But if you were picked, based on your gender, wouldn't that be the exact opposite of being picked because of your qualifications?

If you invert the question.... The male reviewer would be picked up because his gender too

 

[Mory Dunz]

Lol Shouldve made it ~60/40 to look good. It's all for show anyway. Why not

 

[Amused]

If you invert the question.... The male reviewer would be picked up because his gender too

Also this.

 

[Alias03]

would you consider someone who only plays tetris and games like Tetris a gamer?

Nope, I honestly wouldn't. Now would you like to discuss my question I raised or just "answer" it with another question

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

But if you were picked, based on your gender, wouldn't that be the exact opposite of being picked because of your qualifications?

I'm apart of the gaming industry. I have the qualifications and the years of experience to be able to judge video games fairly. I'm very outnumbered in the industry and I see that there needs to be a change but I would love to be considered if someone had the balls to actually ask me and has seen my work and gave me the honor, and an opportunity that I would have never had - to come here with many other well known experts and judge the thing we all have in common... Video games.

They aren't picking women from a pool of worst journalist. They would be picking from the best as well. So to answer your question, it would never be a matter of picking me because I'm a women. I AM a women, but I'm also amongst the same press that also reviews video games and being picked for the job would never come at the cost of another who would be in a larger pool anyways.

 

[Oneself]

So, if there are that many complaints, I guess that every gaming review websites and outlets now have an equal proportion of male & female in the industry, right?

But VG awards is guilty of that, not the industry as a whole.

 

[TBiddy]

If Giant Bomb are to be trusted to judge for the awards, why could they not be trusted to recommend an individual who they are familiar with but who does not work for them?

Because what would be the point then? What would you say if they decided to bring in a male freelancer?

They are hand picked. By the outlets. Why not let someone else do it (in independent committee is an example) to secure a better jury? Shouldn't that be the main goal? Where is this extreme loyalty to the process of choice even coming from?

I have no "extreme loyalty" to the selection process. I'm simply asking why you think a hand-picked jury by a small committee would be better.

And why would they be there because they are female? They should be there because they are qualified. Or are you telling me it would be impossible to find, say, 10 qualifies females? To evaluate video games?

What? No. Please read what I'm writing. I'm merely asking - if you were picked based on your gender instead of your qualifications - how would you feel? More or less "equal"?

I'm apart of the gaming industry. I have the qualifications and the years of experience to be able to judge video games fairly. I'm very outnumbered in the industry and I see that there needs to be a change but I would love to be considered if someone had the balls to actually ask me and has seen my work and gave me the honor, and an opportunity that I would have never had - to come here with many other well known experts and judge the thing we all have in common... Video games.

They aren't picking women from a pool of worst journalist. They would be picking from the best as well.

Clearly, from what you're writing, you would be picked based on your qualifications, not your gender. My question wasn't an attack on you, but merely a hypothetical question.

 

[forrest]

It has probably been stated, but isn't it a gross assumption to state a group of same gender/race can't have diverse opinions, tastes, perspectives, etc.? It's sexist and racist all rolled up into one.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

No it is not sexist.

Giant Bomb could submit one of their male staff, and a perhaps a capable woman freelancer who is not employed by Giant Bomb. Why restrict it to full time staff of the selected publications? Expand the pool to improve the selection process.

But fundamentally I think poking holes in strategies to improve diversity, rather than attempting to consider alternative solutions, is the exact kind of thinking that resulted in the selection we got.

Its not coincidental. People know exactly what they are doing.

 

[Atwa]

Having 50/50 is a silly pipedream, you have to go on qualifications.

That said, they could have had way more women than that. Still these awards are not taken seriously by anyone, they are a joke.

Fighting game has one unreleased game, and one game that is closing down after the awards are done.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Nope, I honestly wouldn't. Now would you like to discuss my question I raised or just "answer" it with another question

Yes she'd be a gamer by all accounts.

It has probably been stated, but isn't it a gross assumption to state a group of same gender/race can't have diverse opinions, tastes, perspectives, etc.? It's sexist and racist all rolled up into one.

a) no one said they can't be diverse and b) no it's not.

 

[LewieP]

Because what would be the point then? What would you say if they decided to bring in a male freelancer?

The point would be avoiding homegenity in the panel. Which as many people have discussed is desirable for improving the panel.

Why would Giant Bomb submit the names of two men when asked to submit a man and a woman?

 

[Lime]

NeoGAF is far more split over this issue than I anticipated. Disappointed to see so many regressive voices.

Having 31 male judges is indicative of institutional sexism. Big name awards shows like TGA need to include more women to help inspire more women to engage with the industry, for the sake of not just equality, but the quality and depth of all gaming.

Yeah when I made this thread I actually didn't expect that there would be so much resistance and opposition grounded in sexist beliefs. It's pretty disheartening to witness.

 

[TBiddy]

The point would be avoiding homegenity in the panel. Which as many people have discussed is desirable for improving the panel.

Why would Giant Bomb submit the names of two men when asked to submit a man and a woman?

For arguments sake. Lets say Giant Bomb was asked to nominate a man and a woman. Lets also for arguments sake say, that Giant Bomb don't have any capable female journalists employed or know any female freelancers they trust enough to act on their behalf.

What then?

Yeah when I made this thread I actually didn't expect that there would be so much resistance and opposition grounded in sexist beliefs. It's pretty disheartening to witness.

Oh please. Disagreeing with your point doesn't necesarrily make a person sexist.