If the press should never publish articles that risk hurting a publisher's business, then I'm not sure what purpose they serve.
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Kotaku has been blacklisted by Bethesda Softworks and Ubisoft
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Sure, until listening to their demands is the only way to conduct business. If there were no laws protecting consumer rights over media sharing then we would not even have these sites. Youtube fiasco already proved that.
The point of the piece is that it's a a discutable practice, and the opposition to it seems to say that's it's not worth talking about. And that's a fat load of nonsense. The games' industry obsession with secrecy in all things is not only absurd, it's allowing it to get away with some incredibly unethical practices.
Leaks are a story like any other, and if it's worth reporting on, any outlet, be it Kotaku or LITERALLY ANYONE ELSE, has a duty to report it. That's journalism. It's what people in here claim they want, before making it obvious that what they actually want is PR and marketing. If you want to know less, more power to you, it's fine, I do it too sometimes (for instance, I don't want to know anything about what's gonna happen in the next few eps of Jessica Jones). But, then, don't go to a website WHOSE ENTIRE BUSINESS is journalism.
What's the ethical problem?
Too right.
I wonder how Disney or WB would act if someone leaked set photos, or script details on their films. Oh wait, they're never sanctioned, always frowned upon, and shut down swiftly. No wonder the press doesn't speculate or misrepresent a given work by the weight of their leaks.
I think there needs to be something like a Deadline Hollywood equivalent, that actually looks at the video game industry in a professional manner. This is not "giving publisher's too much power," it's building a professional relationship. You think the tech guys who leak the new iphone spec get invited to review their final release?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Did any outlet get blacklisted for leaking Star Wars set photos? That's why the comparison is so baffling to me, stuff leaks in the cinema space all the goddamn time
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
he's a gaf member who's posted in this thread and a personal friend. i know for a fact he has no connections or anything that would ever consider him to be a corporate shill/astroturfer
TBH the more Kotaku fucks up their "business relationships" the more I like them. So go forth, Kotaku, and destroy. Report on whatever the fuck you want, you really shouldn't care about losing a preview event, or not getting a copy of a game early. There are much more interesting things you could be doing, give me more of this.
You ..You actually "get" it, thank you, very well put.
Is this where i have to disclose that i am biased because i am a game developer? and have been for the last 10 years?
NoctisVsStar
Member
Agreed, like am i supposed to feel bad for kotaku and the companies involved? Lol no but like you said any journalist runs the risk of messing up relationships when releasing secret information way ahead of time. So kotaku wants to keep giving the public "hard-hitting" stories well just know what the consequences might be, even if its petty it's in the company's right to blacklist you it's just that simple.
Sheriff_Battlesnake
Banned
I thought I smelled corporate greed on you.
It is quite different when they're making money off information they got from someone who broke their contract.
Everything you say post from now on will be heavy with the stench of inside knowledge..You've made your bed outed developer.. don't eat crackers in it and sleep naked.
I am not saying that is good journalism. I am just saying that its a beneficial way to make a reveal.
Like another poster already said. Journalists can write whatever they want. However they want. I am just trying to give a different perspective that i thought was interesting.
Why all you guys take it so personally? i have no idea. I'll just go back to making art.
i dunno how to take this... maybe with a glass of water?
crackers will make you thirsty, so yes, water. or grape drink.
Clockwork5
Member
On the other hand I can go to any recognized gaming website during E3 and see actual gameplay and details of many big unreleased games. Not trailers or teasers, but real gameplay- bugs, hitches and all. This is all approved by publishers and within the agreements between publishers and outlets. I can download beta versions of unreleased games for free and try them out. I can go to pax and speak with publishers and developers and often play unfinished builds of upcoming games. I can go to GAF and get more information about games than I could ever sift through and absorb. There is no shortage of gaming info. Publishers want to keep some details confidential and release info on their schedule but their is also a treasure trove of publisher approved info and hands on experiences regarding video games. More than a list of release dates and 30 second trailers.
It's why I said the press. You'll never find leaked set photos from Deadline, New York Times,Toronto Star, or Entertainment Weekly.
Sure, all those bloggers though?? That's how they get hits. But let's not pretend that it's okay, or even good content to begin with.
How? How is that different in any way? Why is it somehow more ethical to blindly accept to play a part in a publisher's PR and marketing plan? How is that better journalism than actually doing your job?
Just admit you don't actually want journalism, give up on all news outlets, and only get your news from press releases.
silvermember
Banned
It is not Kotaku's job to really care. That is how journalist work or should work. The problem lies with the leaker not Kotaku. If people had to rely on PR, we will never get any information about anything. We would never hear stories about the Florida gaming company that treated its employees horribly. We will never get the story behind LA Noire.
Journalist in other areas do the same thing and do get flak. It is only here where people such as yourself would defend something some terrible. Journalist have no obligation to be PR mouthpieces for publishers. What UBisoft and Bethsoft are doing is within their rights, but WE the consumer should NEVER be OK with that.
It seems to me you don't understand what journalism is about and are used to the shitty piece of PR-fueled "JOURNALISM" found in video games. That is why guys like the RT can be paid by a publisher to produce content for them and then somehow expect us the consumer to believe that RT is not giving a bias review. The reason why publishers can sponsor, JOURNALIST, is because people don't know what a journalist is suppose to do.
Steve Youngblood
Member
OK. Great. Publishers -- in your mind -- do a great job of keeping the public adequately informed about their products. Forget the world as it exists right now and your opinion on current journalists (or the enthusiast press if you will). Let's say I'm an aspiring writer who wants to report about video games and NOT work for a publisher. What role is there for me in your mind?
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
Recently you have the anonymous-source "leak" article from the Escapist leveling serious allegations at Chris Roberts, causing a fair amount of consternation and legal efforts over at RSI, generating bad PR and possible hurting crowd-funding efforts.
I mentioned in an earlier post you have an analog to that from Kotaku, the anonymous source "leak" article about Silicon Knights and X-Men Destiny, that generated such bad PR that the Precursor Games crowdfunding project fielded more questions about it than their proposed game.
Leaks that have been extremely costly to game companies that can't be sourced to games press of course include the big Half Life 2 and Mass Effect 3 story leaks that led to huge expenditure in cost to change the course of development to steer away from what had been leaked.
And of course if you open it up beyond leaks to news, reviews, and previews well there's way more potential damage that can and sometimes should happen, but also can--and does--and sometimes shouldn't.
Why do they need to talk to Todd Howard when they get fed info "on the sly" by Johhny McDouche, game tester extraordinaire.
1) I really don't understand what you guys are talking about when you say the games industry is more secretive than other media. I'll need an explanation there.
2) Yes Kotaku should post whatever they think is relevant news. No argument. But I've yet to see an answer as to why Publishers should be obligated to answer their calls or send them review copies.
Question: Should Ubisoft answer the calls from some site they've never heard of? Should Bethesda send out early review copies to a little known Youtuber?
If your answer is "no" what reason can you give that couldn't also be applied to Kotaku here?
This is as applicable to their Destiny story as it is to the Fallout 4 leak, unless you think those anonymous developers were authorized to speak about the game's development process.
Steve Youngblood
Member
You didn't need to disclose anything. I was just trying to understand why you were qualified with the phrase "of all people" and deemed beyond reproach despite having made this comment:
kavanf1
Member
There's an enormous gulf between carefully packaged PR messages on one end and unauthorised leaks from disgruntled employees on the other. On one side, the creator/owner of the content is entitled to disseminate info as they please. If they choose to do that in a cheesy, guarded way, they will only have themselves to blame when the consumer rips them apart. On the other hand if they share stuff, are open and honest about the development process, discuss the pitfalls and the victories, and are up front about their fuck ups, it's possible they can provide a journalist with interesting stuff that their readers want to read about, and consumers will respond positively to their openness. Maybe.
Likewise, the media are entitled to use whatever methods they use to tell valuable stories, and that includes reporting on leaked info from disgruntled employees. It's not on them to stop that, that responsibility lies with the leaker's employer. However, they need to accept that they may end up burning their bridges as a result of a decision to publish something. Them's the breaks.
There is a middle ground to be trod, where both parties do their job, both produce valuable content, and everyone benefits. That relationship is bound to - must, in fact - ruffle feathers sometimes. On those occasions, it would be great if people didn't throw their toys out of the pram, but the gaming industry is still pretty juvenile and loves a bit of drama too much to resist lashing out any time someone pisses them off.
I don't mind.
All in all, i thought the other article brought some interesting points to the discussion, and heck.. just thought there could be a happy medium somewhere. But i guess sometimes people take that as me being a joke... or me not understanding journalism. or heck.. i am a fake account that is promoting something.
People should be allowed to say whatever they want. Journalism takes that a step further tho, and should understand the consequences and repercussions of the freewill that they can exercise. Their stories is what keeps them afloat, so why not make the most of out what they have?
I just think that can be detrimental to the people following, the topic and studios at hand and the credibility of the sources.
I do think that people who break NDAs to a media outlet is crazy, but a topic to be more controversial than that article.
Didn't mean to start a hornets nest tho
The video game industry is much more than mere speculative pieces based on leaks. I would hope an aspiring journalist would discuss the nature of the industry, the employees, acquisitions, successes, failures, critical commentary and interviews. I'd also like to see video games to be treated as an art form with a respect to the artists and the producers.
But more importantly, are the creatives and publishers obligated to answer this aspiring journalists cold calls and emails?
BossDarkseid
Member
I don't know if this is playing the devils advocate but...I kinda wonder...as much as Kotaku/PressSneakFuck has done good work with exposing some of the terrible work conditions a lot of devs suffer under...have any of their leaks, that they've maybe published because no one would confirm them (obviously), cost anyone jobs?
Edit: After reading Fredescu's post below I feel I should point out I mean leaks as in things anonymous people have sent to Kotaku, not info available on the depths of reddit/4chan or even here on Gaf.
Edit: After reading Fredescu's post below I feel I should point out I mean leaks as in things anonymous people have sent to Kotaku, not info available on the depths of reddit/4chan or even here on Gaf.
Calling Half Life 2 a "story leak" is, putting it mildly, inaccurate. It was a leak of the software itself. This is something completely different and not really the topic of the thread.
charlequin
Banned
I mean, the comment about making reveals "more epic" was completely absurd, so it would help explain your concept of what the games press exists to do, I guess?
Putting aside the Escapist case since there are some weird factors about veracity there, the second case here is pretty much the most straightforward case for an outlet "leaking" information, since it involves exposure of misbehavior by the developer in question, and the negative impact is a consequence of the information being revealed.
I'm not aware of any actual content changes in ME3 or HL2 as a result of their leaks, and if there were in some other game I don't see the culpability there. Scrapping the intended ending to something because someone's found it out early is a foolish decision and it's pretty much on the creators if they choose to inflict that on themselves.
Like: in both cases, I don't see any evidence that a leak causes actual financial impact for a developer purely by disrupting their intended marketing/press strategy.
If this is why they're blacklisted serves them right.
Imbarkus
As Sartre noted in his contemplation on Hell in No Exit, the true horror is other members.
Story was a modifier only to the second instance of the word leak but not to the first implied instance. Words. You can just use the other examples if that one's no good I guess.
This is only true if you accept the exposed misbehavior as fact, which means you are judging the first example's anonymous sources as having questionable veracity while taking the second's as unquestionably valid.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if we can product citations or evidence of financial impact for leaked information. It only matter if the people being asked to provide quotes and review copies, content, essentially, feel that way.
And as others have stated, if that's the case, Kotaku can proceed without those benefits, exploring the pluses and minuses of a different style of reporting.
I really hope that anyone saying that Kotaku shouldn't report leaks haven't gone to general or entertainment sites to read movie leaks from screenshots from on set to scripts. Remember that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles script leak about them being aliens instead of mutants? It had a thread here and not many seemed to like what that was about, but lots of people did like the do-rags.
Wait, I hope you're not suggesting that Kotaku should narc to Bethesda / Ubisoft about who leaked their info, are you?
Because if you're not suggesting that, I honestly can't understand what you are suggesting.
I honeslty don't see where it was inferred in his statement that it should be their sole purpose, why CAN'T they work with studios to make big reveals?
Is gaming news supposed to be all unethical drama and social issues all the time?
Sheriff_Battlesnake
Banned
I think people are just taking issue with the word "Epic" and then coloring his whole post like it's a big buzz word. Brau is just supporting a symbiotic relationship.
Felix Lighter
Member
That is a fascinating strawman you built there. And if you want AAA pre-release ULTRA-HYPE!, there are plenty of outlets that stick to that 80% of the time.
No, I thought what you said was silly.
Obviously Ubi/Bethesda are upset with the person who leaked the info. That dosen't mean they can't decide to close communication with the site that's encouraging that behavior.
It seemed about as relevant as saying instead of Kotaku whining about the publishers, they focus their anger at the leaker who got them into their position. (meaning I don't think it's very relevant)
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It was not an insult, rather an observation. If you feel insulted by it, that is between you and your conscious.
Still not an answer or argument.
When you say "We did that one time at Sony SCEA-SD" do you mean you worked for Sony and leaked info you weren't supposed to?
When you say "You will be surprised that a good portion is "viral" sometimes." what does that mean? Like... I don't understand what that sentence is trying to say.
The irony. I suggest you read the earlier posts from all parties involved to get an idea of where my "strawman" came from.
You get it. That's what i'm getting at.
Thanks for the clarification. I do think a source code leak is far more damaging than rumours and screen shots, so I think that example stands out among the others.
Again, the blame here is squarely on the employee who leaked the information. The employee is literally the only person doing something unethical (and probably illegal). The employee is the one damaging his or her coworker's hard work.
Kotaku is well within their right to publish leaked information. It's not their prerogative or duty to think of the PR people whose days this will ruin. If Kotaku didn't publish it, someone else would, and the status quo is still the same. The employee is still to blame, the PR people still have work ruined, etc.
Just like Bethesda is well within its right to blacklist Kotaku (even though it's a stupid thing to do)
Just like Kotaku is well within its right to write about the fact they've been blacklisted, especially since it answers their readers' questions around "why is your coverage late"
NoctisVsStar
Member
Everyone is within their right to do as they please, no matter how petty it might seem.
Yes, but only one person is actually doing something unethical and probably illegal:
The employee who leaked the information
I agree. But why would you say that the Pubs are within their rights to blacklist but then say they should solely blame the leaker?