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[gundamkyoukai]

The reason this is confusing is because it's a sliding scale as price drops.

You pay $12 to make the game no matter what. On a full price retail title, the retail margin is around $12 as well, so the publisher has $36.

For a $20 title however, the retailer gets around $5, so the publisher gets $3, which is about the same as a $5 title on Steam, and why console games almost never drop below $20 in stores unless they're closing out stock.

A publisher's physical versus digital margin depends on their average selling price.

This is also why publishers love DLC. It lets them sell a game for cheap and anyone who is buying a $10 DLC pack is giving them over twice as much money as they got from you buying a $20 game at the store.

Yep that is why in the future i expect games like Tales to go full DD on PSN and steam unless it start selling more on physical .

 

[WanderingWind]

Picked it up during the Steam sale. First Tales game since Vesperia. I'm still real early into the game, but there is something very charming about the utterly guilelesness of the world. It's got plenty of mechanics to sort out, some amount of exploration and it's got a ton of quality of life features I wish Xenoblade X had.

Glad to see it's a success. I want more jRPGs on PC.

 

[theprodigy]

The reason this is confusing is because it's a sliding scale as price drops.

You pay $12 to make the game no matter what. On a full price retail title, the retail margin is around $12 as well, so the publisher has $36.

For a $20 title however, the retailer gets around $5, so the publisher gets $3, which is about the same as a $5 title on Steam, and why console games almost never drop below $20 in stores unless they're closing out stock.

A publisher's physical versus digital margin depends on their average selling price.

This is also why publishers love DLC. It lets them sell a game for cheap and anyone who is buying a $10 DLC pack is giving them over twice as much money as they got from you buying a $20 game at the store.

So on a rather tangential note, I assume for Nintendo retail vs digital makes comparatively less difference? maintaining high prices+not having to pay the platform holder

 

[DarkLordMalik]

And... did I said it wasn't the case ? Although, while digital is bigger this gen on consoles, keep in mind it's still the exception, not the rule. The 20% figure is usually for AAA titles.

We are now talking about games that are no longer stocked as you said, their retail life might be limited. In that case, the digital sales are higher, no? These games will keep existing on PSN and also sell whenever there is a sale throughout the lifecycle of the console. Heck even Amazon has started selling digital codes for PSN games and they also offer frequent discounts equal to PSN (The Order being $9 etc) on their website.

 

[GhostTrick]

We are now talking about games that are no longer stocked as you said, their retail life might be limited. In that case, the digital sales are higher, no? These games will keep existing on PSN and also sell whenever there is a sale throughout the lifecycle of the console. Heck even Amazon has started selling digital codes for PSN games and they also offer frequent discounts equal to PSN (The Order being $9 etc) on their website.

So... you're basically rephrasing what I said then ?

 

[Nirolak]

Yep that is why in the future i expect games like Tales to go full DD on PSN and steam unless it start selling more on physical .

The reason they still like retail is it hits a fair number of people who wouldn't get it otherwise who they can upsell DLC to.

They also like selling them Collector's Editions which have way inflated prices.

What we do see a lot though is doing notably limited print runs so if you don't buy an early (high margin) title, you have to buy digital as it's basically out of stock.

 

[Durante]

Picked it up during the Steam sale. First Tales game since Vesperia. I'm still real early into the game, but there is something very charming about the utterly guilelesness of the world. It's got plenty of mechanics to sort out, some amount of exploration and it's got a ton of quality of life features I wish Xenoblade X had.

Glad to see it's a success. I want more jRPGs on PC.

I like how they try to tell you in the beginning in Elysia how the world is totally messed up, Age of Chaos and everything.

When you get down from the mountain, you realize that people

Spoiler

are actually pretty damn happy and cities look quite well-maintained

.
And by the end of the game, you learn that the "Age of Chaos"

Spoiler

lasted all of what, 16 years?

That last one made me laugh when I realized it.


I really enjoyed the game mind you, it's just a fascinating contrast to something actually dark and with a civilization which is actually in dire straits like Age of Decadence.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

So on a rather tangential note, I assume for Nintendo retail vs digital makes comparatively less difference? maintaining high prices+not having to pay the platform holder

It's the same for all platform holders .
They get more money on DD .
Even if nintendo games don't lower in price physical wise .
They still have to share with stores , shipping , etc etc so it going to matter .

 

[3Kaze]

This is pretty awesome. More viable platforms for Japanese RPGs means higher likelihood of not only games being localised but also companies making money which in turn means even more games being developed and thus brought over.

More Tales being rushed and looking like ps2 games.

 

[faridmon]

So how many Tales games are on Steam and will they add the previous catalogue like Destiny, Destiny 2, etc there?

 

[Chairmanchuck]

So how many Tales games are on Steam and will they add the previous catalogue like Destiny, Destiny 2, etc there?

Zestiria, Symphonia (releases this month IIRC) and Berseria was announced for Steam.

 

[Mifec]

So how many Tales games are on Steam and will they add the previous catalogue like Destiny, Destiny 2, etc there?

Symphonia releases in a month and the new one is confirmed for Steam.

 

[DarkLordMalik]

So... you're basically rephrasing what I said then ?

Games which are niche like DQH are obviously not shipped in large quantities. SE has their own expectations and judging from marketing of DQH on PS4, I doubt they shipped a large amount of copies.

In a scenario where the game is out of stock everywhere, people will be still able to pick it up on PSN hence digital sales will be higher. That's basically the gist of what I said.

The publisher will incur a loss if the game is overshipped and in case of ToZ and DQH, I am sure that isn't the case here. Unlike, say, Type-0 HD that shipped 1 million and likely has copies still waiting to be sold.

Because it had a physical release and collector edition ?

It was available digitally as well.

 

[MutonCommander]

I think people overestimate how much these games need to sell in a digital economy to be worthwhile.

Like, Koei Tecmo's stuff has been selling jack shit for ages, but keeps coming over. We even have a nigh assured mega bomb unit wise like Arslan coming up.

On the surface, this would seem confusing, but let's work out the math.

So with Dragon Quest Heroes, we have 18,000 copies * $60 * 0.7 for the publisher cut and we get $756,000.

The game hasn't went on a real sale, and they're likely already way over the cost of making the port given their tech base already supports the platform.

Where retail games run into issues is you pay $12 to print a copy whether it sells or not, have to print 5000-10,000 copies to even get your game made, and your margin goes from ~60% at full price to ~15-20% by the time your game is $20 versus statically staying at 70%.

This is why publishers are always hesitant about retail versions of niche games, but more than happy to bring out digital versions even with notably low sales.

Very interesting, thanks.

 

[Pranay]

Nirolak, is that 27$ to 29$ revenue to publisher wrong?
http://gamerant.com/video-game-prices-breakdown-514/

 

[Nirolak]

So on a rather tangential note, I assume for Nintendo retail vs digital makes comparatively less difference? maintaining high prices+not having to pay the platform holder

Yes. Nintendo's only real retail issues are price protection (if Nintendo sold a retailer a copy of Bayonetta 2 for $48, that retailer can sell it for $20 and get $33 back from Nintendo to protect their margin in the West) and having to buy shelf space to keep Wii U sections in retail stores.

But when they're hot, they're making a ton money with their strategy.

For people wondering why retail price protection isn't abused, you don't do business with those who do, but you also have to accept losing money on dud products if you want to be in Wal-Mart.

 

[Droplet]

I like how they try to tell you in the beginning in Elysia how the world is totally messed up, Age of Chaos and everything.

When you get down from the mountain, you realize that people

Spoiler

are actually pretty damn happy and cities look quite well-maintained

.
And by the end of the game, you learn that the "Age of Chaos"

Spoiler

lasted all of what, 16 years?

That last one made me laugh when I realized it.


I really enjoyed the game mind you, it's just a fascinating contrast to something actually dark and with a civilization which is actually in dire straits like Age of Decadence.

Shit, realizing the Celestial Record was

Spoiler

only like 10 years old

threw me for a loop.

Did you get the armadillo/Armadylan one from Lailah on the way to Edna? It was so bizarre it ended up being hilarious.

That sidequest boss was really hard.

 

[Nirolak]

Nirolak, is that 27$ to 29$ revenue to publisher wrong?
http://gamerant.com/video-game-prices-breakdown-514/

It's accounting for return fees and/or marketing spend rates as a ratio of expected sales.

Like if you figure that a store will ship back 5% of the copies you send them and 10% of your expected revenue will be spent on marketing, these numbers would be correct.

I prefer to do absolute cost calculations though since marketing varies per product and if you ship very few copies, you're not getting any returned.

Edit: Yes they're assuming 11.5% of what you ship doesn't sell and gets returned with the $7 in return fees.

 

[GhostTrick]

Nirolak, is that 27$ to 29$ revenue to publisher wrong?
http://gamerant.com/video-game-prices-breakdown-514/

It's missing taxes (VAT) though.

 

[Momentary]

Luckily Berseria ia coming to PC and won't need a fix for smooth gameplay judging by the 60FPS footage.

I don't think Symphonia will be that lucky.

 

[Nirolak]

It's missing taxes (VAT) though.

That's a US breakdown where games cost less due to this and tax is only added at the register in variable (or non-existent) amounts depending on city and state.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Glad to see there is a sizable audience in Steam to support these games. Tales needs support, although i don't know whether or not this kind of thing is enough to help them reach "the next step" through sales support.

The fact that retail's share of the money is cut out from this is great for them.

 

[Pranay]

It's accounting for return fees and/or marketing spend rates as a ratio of expected sales.

Like if you figure that a store will ship back 5% of the copies you send them and 10% of your expected revenue will be spent on marketing, these numbers would be correct.

I prefer to do absolute cost calculations though since marketing varies per product and if you ship very few copies, you're not getting any returned.

Edit: Yes they're assuming 11.5% of what you ship doesn't sell and gets returned with the $7 in return fees.

.

OK cool

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Glad to see there is a sizable audience in Steam to support these games. Tales needs support, although i don't know whether or not this kind of thing is enough to help them reach "the next step"

What do you mean by next step ?

I see your edit .

 

[Parsnip]

Nice numbers.

Combined with what it must have sold on Sony consoles to date, a strong Western showing and a no-brainer for future localizations and ports for Tales series and other games as well (as they have announced).

Good stuff all around.



Also, somehow in these threads it always seems like people are wildly overestimating the porting cost of games.

 

[GhostTrick]

That's a US breakdown where games cost less due to this and tax is only added at the register in variable (or non-existent) amounts depending on city and state.

Eh, good point ! I never understood the tax system in USA. At least here in France, it's directly included in the price. And at a 20% rate, that's already 20% away on a 60€ game.

Nice numbers.

Combined with what it must have sold on Sony consoles to date, a strong Western showing and a no-brainer for future localizations and ports for Tales series and other games as well (as they have announced).

Good stuff all around.



Also, somehow in these threads it always seems like people are wildly overestimating the porting cost of games.

Porting is never the biggest issue. Licensing for some games, stocking games or printing them is a bigger issue. I think that for exemple, Microsoft ask for a 50K minimum print for a game to get a physical release.

 

[Inuhanyou]

What do you mean by next step ?

What i mean is, a boost to the point where Namco Bandai will feel they can give more to the Tales team than they are now because of the expected return. Or if the expanded sales just means that they will continue on the current course for more profit margins.

Tales is very low budget in this day and age for the scale they attempt with these titles.

 

[Chris R]

Buying this for sure during the Summer sale if I had to guess. Just too much on my plate right now to be buying things I don't plan on playing right away.

 

[MUnited83]

Also, somehow in these threads it always seems like people are wildly overestimating the porting cost of games.

Yep! Like someone already said, if Tecmo Koei continues to bring games over and over and over again with new announcements hhapening all the time and many of them selling kinda badly (due to price and port quality) and they still find it worth it to continue bringing games to PC, porting shouldnt have huge costs.

 

[SarusGray]

Wish I enjoyed this game but it was far too slow and the combat was not like other tales and the camera was infuriating. Don't know if I should buy berseria since I'm hearing its set in the same universe and I hated this one... Good for it though and hope to see some larger improvements with the game hopefully.

 

[MrSaturn99]

About 14 hours in the PS3 version and am really struggling to continue. Everything from the plot, cast and the aesthetics are so thoroughly mediocre, and the framerate/sound problems in cutscene are just ghastly. If you ask me, I don't think Namco really knows what they're doing with this series anymore.

On that note, not sure what to make of this news. I'd like to see the series do well, but only if it maintains a consistent quality.

 

[WanderingWind]

I like how they try to tell you in the beginning in Elysia how the world is totally messed up, Age of Chaos and everything.

When you get down from the mountain, you realize that people

Spoiler

are actually pretty damn happy and cities look quite well-maintained

.
And by the end of the game, you learn that the "Age of Chaos"

Spoiler

lasted all of what, 16 years?

That last one made me laugh when I realized it.


I really enjoyed the game mind you, it's just a fascinating contrast to something actually dark and with a civilization which is actually in dire straits like Age of Decadence.

But a rug seller is marking up his wares! Malevolence!

 

[gundamkyoukai]

What i mean is, a boost to the point where Namco Bandai will feel they can give more to the Tales team than they are now because of the expected return. Or if the expanded sales just means that they will continue on the current course for more profit margins.

Tales is very low budget in this day and age for the scale they attempt with these titles.

Okay .
I just don't see the tales games looking that much better .
Even if they drop PS3 i expect they going to go for max profit .
They seem to be reusing more and more stuff now for the games.
Gust is a smaller company and there character model look better than tales IMO .
Looks like BN wanted to pump out the games cheap and good PC sales just means better profit for them .
Don't see them giving tales a bigger budget still a new engine might help .

EDIT maybe when they drop PS3 they going to go UE4 like everyone else might help .

 

[Kyoufu]

More Tales being rushed and looking like ps2 games.

I guess it's better to exist than not at all.

I think.

I wish they'd just use these profits on a bigger budget game.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

Here you go

http://blog.talesofgame.com/en/tales-of-berseria-is-coming-to-ps4-and-pc/

Here's your official statement: Berseria being announced for Steam release. Bamco doubling down their support for Steam (One Piece Burning Blood, God Eater 1 and 2).

I'm sorry guys, but releasing a game that was planned quite some time ago don't say much about the actual expectations Namco had for Zestiria and if those expectations were met or surpassed.

 

[Shahed]

FWIW here in the UK Tales of Zestiria PS3 was £16 and PS4 was £25 when I was in Grainger Games the other day. So it's already hit a low point.

Yeah Zestiria has been getting lower and lower in price. I'm sure i saw £20 for the PS4 version somewhere. I thought about getting it a few times but I've kind of lost interest in the series and Zestiria doesn't exactly look interesting after Xillia and Hearts.

 

[GhostTrick]

I'm sorry guys, but releasing a game that was planned quite some time ago don't say much about the actual expectations Namco had for Zestiria and if those expectations were met or surpassed.

Of course it does. Do you think they would've announced that this early ?

 

[Granjinha]

I'm sorry guys, but releasing a game that was planned quite some time ago don't say much about the actual expectations Namco had for Zestiria and if those expectations were met or surpassed.

lol

yeah sure

 

[Iva Demilcol]

Of course it does. Do you think they would've announced that this early ?

If they planned it to test how well the series would do on PC, of course they'd announce it this early. If after that they find it's not worth the effort they may not release more Tales of games for PC.

Berseria's announcement doesn't say anything about Zestiria's expectations, sales, etc.

 

[Netrunner2k2]

I'm sorry guys, but releasing a game that was planned quite some time ago don't say much about the actual expectations Namco had for Zestiria and if those expectations were met or surpassed.

SOMEHOW I doubt you ARE sorry.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

It's so cheap to port games now i don't see why they don't port them to PC .
Porting the PS4 version can't cost that much and the returns are great on DD .
I play these games on consoles but the more sales the better since we can get to play them be it PC or console .

 

[Durante]

If they planned it to test how well the series would do on PC, of course they'd announce it this early. If after that they find it's not worth the effort they may not release more Tales of games for PC.

Berseria's announcement doesn't say anything about Zestiria's expectations, sales, etc.

Are you seriously questioning that N-B will continue offering Tales games on PC when they sell like this?

If so, I can only really quote these two:

I think people overestimate how much these games need to sell in a digital economy to be worthwhile.

Also, somehow in these threads it always seems like people are wildly overestimating the porting cost of games.

As pointed out earlier in this thread, it's not unlikely at all that T-K's 18k-selling PC ports are already profitable. There is no question at all that Zestiria at 100k+ is making bank for N-B.

 

[GhostTrick]

If they planned it to test how well the series would do on PC, of course they'd announce it this early. If after that they find it's not worth the effort they may not release more Tales of games for PC.

Berseria's announcement doesn't say anything about Zestiria's expectations, sales, etc.

If they planned to test how well the series would do on PC, that would be with Zestiria. The game isn't close to completion for the Japanese release, and I'm not even sure work on the PC version started, hence why it may not even come in 2016. Berseria early announcement in West is a reaction to the western sales of Zestiria.

 

[Peff]

If they planned it to test how well the series would do on PC, of course they'd announce it this early. If after that they find it's not worth the effort they may not release more Tales of games for PC.

Berseria's announcement doesn't say anything about Zestiria's expectations, sales, etc.

What are you talking about? The localization doesn't even have a placeholder year. No company would willingly put their foot in their mouth like that if they didn't consider these sales good.

Which again, they are.

 

[Possumowner]

Glad I picked it up,and pleased its selling pretty well.More please

 

[Iva Demilcol]

SOMEHOW I doubt you ARE sorry.

All I'm saying is that I am not entirely convinced that the release of Berseria is a statement of the success of Zestiria on PC. Some people have pointed out already that Bamco almost stealth released it.

They decided to release the most successful game of the series on PC (ToS) and they decided to announce that Berseria is coming to PC too. If after that they keep releasing Tales of games for PC I will have no doubt of the success of the series. (Also if they release an official statement about Zestiria I'll have more confidence about it, but so far we can just infer some things based on some data)

 

[kayos90]

All I'm saying is that I am not entirely convinced that the release of Berseria is a statement of the success of Zestiria on PC. Some people have pointed out already that Bamco almost stealth released it.

They decided to release the most successful game of the series on PC (ToS) and they decided to announce that Berseria is coming to PC too. If after that they keep releasing Tales of games for PC I will have no doubt of the success of the series. (Also if they release an official statement about Zestiria I'll have more confidence about it, but so far we can just infer some things based on some data)

You can't look at releases for Tales games as some sort of Tales only microcosm. Bamco has been pushing for PC releases heavily on nearly every single one of their Japanese titles. They're going to do it because it doesn't cost a lot and there's quite a bit of margin.

 

[Inuhanyou]

It seems like there are many people really passive aggressively hostile about PC JRPG ports and their success.

Don't worry, your PS4 isn't going to disappear if PC gamers get their hands on these titles and they became a viable market. There is obviously pent up demand considering the history of such games on the PC, and the publishers are seeing and responding to that.

Its good for everyone that these games don't sink into the abyss of mobile or whatever flavor of the month Japan feels they need to bank on in their domestic market

 

[gundamkyoukai]

It seems like there are many people really passive aggressively hostile about PC JRPG ports and their success.

Don't worry, your PS4 isn't going to disappear if PC gamers get their hands on these titles and they became a viable market. There is obviously pent up demand considering the history of such games on the PC, and the publishers are seeing and responding to that.

Its good for everyone that these games don't sink into the abyss of mobile or whatever flavor of the month Japan feels they need to bank on in their domestic market

Yep these games doing good on PC is good for everyone .
Biggest fear is the rpgs i love going mobile (looking at you BOF)

 

[jmga]

It seems like there are many people really passive aggressively hostile about PC JRPG ports and their success.

Don't worry, your PS4 isn't going to disappear if PC gamers get their hands on these titles and they became a viable market. There is obviously pent up demand considering the history of such games on the PC, and the publishers are seeing and responding to that.

Its good for everyone that these games don't sink into the abyss of mobile or whatever flavor of the month Japan feels they need to bank on in their domestic market

Actually, PS4 users should be happy this games sell well on PC, because I'm sure there are some games Japanese publishers would not risk localizing just for PS4. Like Dragon Quest: Heroes.